Is this legal for DVC to do?

[PamOKW]

It doesn't matter "who" was in the unit nor whose credit card was used. The agreement is between DVC and the member for the use of a unit. Any outstanding issues or problems are the responsibility of the owner to have addressed. Disney did not rent to the person in the unit, they rented to the owner and clearly established the rules for use of the unit. A court probably would not force the member to pay the bill but they would uphold DVC's right to deny use of membership until the bill was paid. Denial of use when monies are owed is clearly stated.

While it is would require an extreme circumstance, members should keep in mind that a renters behavior could even forfeit your membership. There's a whole list of rules including using the units for illegal activity (i.e., selling drugs), having firearms on property or even a case of losing one's temper and getting into a physical fight. If someone you allowed to use your unit were arrested while on property, you could be subject to losing your membership.

Disney holds the units in trust for everyone's use and has rules in place to help protect themselves and other members.

 

[dianeschlicht]

It doesn't matter "who" was in the unit nor whose credit card was used. The agreement is between DVC and the member for the use of a unit. Any outstanding issues or problems are the responsibility of the owner to have addressed. Disney did not rent to the person in the unit, they rented to the owner and clearly established the rules for use of the unit. A court probably would not force the member to pay the bill but they would uphold DVC's right to deny use of membership until the bill was paid. Denial of use when monies are owed is clearly stated.

While it is would require an extreme circumstance, members should keep in mind that a renters behavior could even forfeit your membership. There's a whole list of rules including using the units for illegal activity (i.e., selling drugs), having firearms on property or even a case of losing one's temper and getting into a physical fight. If someone you allowed to use your unit were arrested while on property, you could be subject to losing your membership.

Disney holds the units in trust for everyone's use and has rules in place to help protect themselves and other members.

Pam, that is profound enough to be repeated! It also should be the final word for this thread.

 

[crisi]

We're with you, JohnnieF. My DH and I have looked this all over - and no matter how you slice it - this just doesn't go back to the owner. This debate will go on for days, weeks, etc - so I'll be dodging the flames now. But hey - Everyone has their right to an opinion.....
I can see the owner being responsible for charges to the room that did not require a CC placed (ie phone calls and room service) and obviously any damage or theft. The CC issue is a contract between Disney and the person who leaves the CC. This isn't any sort of "act or omission" of the renter - it's a Disney error.
If it came down to it with us - we would pitch a stick with Disney. I have a feeling that if anyone actually questioned this at a high level - they would have to back down and admit their error is at thier expense. But of course - they are going to try to get their money anyway they can!
There were so many mistakes made here.... BIL not getting charged, the resort not realizing the error right away, DVC not notifing the member right away, etc. Someone out there in the chain is just trying to cover themselves and is hoping it'll fly.

I think it would involve court. And Disney has one of the best legal departments in the business. You'd quickly spend every cent you could possibly save not paying the bill on attorney fees. They have a contract you signed agreeing you'd be responsible for "acts" of the renter. In this case the act was buying things on credit - not Disney not correctly charging the room - that was Disney's omission, but Disney will claim the original act - purchasing it and charging it to the room, was the renters and therefore the owners responsiblity.

 

[RobDoc]

...
Besides a screw-up at Disney accounting, can you think of other ways a renter could "work this" without commiting CC fraud?

As already mentioned in this thread- the renter does not have to provide a credit card at check-in. The room is pre-paid using points (by the member). The renter can still make phone calls from the room and could still have room service delivered to the room. Unless the renter settles the bill upon departure, the member will be held responsible until the matter is settled.

The only difference in this case is that the BIL did provide the credit card, but due to some irregularity (and none of us really know what that may be at this point), the bill remains unpaid ... and the member is being held responsible until the matter is settled.

 

[vascubaguy]

I wonder what dispute procedures are in place. What if some charges that weren't actually from a member or guest appeared on the bill? Would they still hold you (DVC owner) responsible?

 

[JohnNJ]

...but due to some irregularity (and none of us really know what that may be at this point), the bill remains unpaid...

And that is the gaping hole in this discussion.

As I said, the OP's story doesn't add up, including his follow up with MS. Where's the store/restaurant receipts? Where's a hotel printout of the charges? Where's the printout from MS? I find it strange that MS didn't make more of an effort to help the OP clear this up. Did he even find out who the BIL was supposed to contact to pay the outstanding balance?

I'm still having a hard time buying this. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

 

[CarolMN]

As others have already stated, DVC can (and has) held the member responsible. DVC's contract is with the member. It is up to the member to recover from the guest.

I also agree with those who not think a clause in the rental agreement re damages and unpaid room charges would be of much help. It doesn't help to be in the "right", if it costs more than it's worth to recover. In other words, if an owner is unlucky enough to be dealing with a dishonest person, there is no easy, quick or inexpensive way to recover.

Thanks goodness, most people are honest and the crooks probably can't make enough $$ defrauding DVC owners to make it a worthwhile endeavor.

Best wishes -

P.S. I think that almost all of the accounts that are not in good standing are due to owners who fall behind on loan payments / dues. IMHO, this is a much more common occurence than those of us who post here might believe.

 

[cruise-o-matic]

As already mentioned in this thread- the renter does not have to provide a credit card at check-in. The room is pre-paid using points (by the member). The renter can still make phone calls from the room and could still have room service delivered to the room. Unless the renter settles the bill upon departure, the member will be held responsible until the matter is settled.

The only difference in this case is that the BIL did provide the credit card, but due to some irregularity (and none of us really know what that may be at this point), the bill remains unpaid ... and the member is being held responsible until the matter is settled.

And that's probably the crux of the matter. Charges that are inherent with room occupancy, ie phone, room service, etc. are co-mingled with charges to the KTTW, so they show up on the same bill. The problem that I and others have with this is that being able to charge to the KTTW is a separate transaction at check in. In effect, Disney is extending credit to the occupant, yet holding the owner liable.

 

[crisi]

The owner agreed to be liable whent they rented/gave points. The owner is always liable for acts or omissions made by the occupant of the room on their points. Disney didn't make you liable without your permission, you agreed to that when you bought.

 

[RobDoc]

And that's probably the crux of the matter. Charges that are inherent with room occupancy, ie phone, room service, etc. are co-mingled with charges to the KTTW, so they show up on the same bill. The problem that I and others have with this is that being able to charge to the KTTW is a separate transaction at check in. In effect, Disney is extending credit to the occupant, yet holding the owner liable.

I fail to see any difference with inherent charges and those allowed only with the room id. A renter/guest with no KTTW charging privilege could still rack up hundreds of $$ of inherent charges and the member would still be held responsible for those long distance calls.

The issue for me is not the KTTW charges- it's that member's have agreed to be responsible for all aspects of the reservation.

 

[Johnnie Fedora]

I wonder what dispute procedures are in place. What if some charges that weren't actually from a member or guest appeared on the bill? Would they still hold you (DVC owner) responsible?

This is a very good question and could affect all members. Even if you dissaprove of renting, and are elated to see a "Disney rule" that may cited as a way discourage the practice.

Disney can certainly do whatever they want. A court ruling would be needed to clarify which contract superceeds the other: the member's contract with DVC or the renters contract with the CC company and WDW. Leagally, there's probably wiggle room either way, but as many have said, member costs to challange would make it prohibitive to pursue. Unless of course your a contract lawyer.

Guess we'll never really know.

 

[cruise-o-matic]

A renter/guest with no KTTW charging privilege could still rack up hundreds of $$ of inherent charges and the member would still be held responsible for those long distance calls..

I don't disagree with you there.

The issue for me is not the KTTW charges- it's that member's have agreed to be responsible for all aspects of the reservation.

This is where I do disagree. I don't see the ability to charge to the KTTW as part of the reservation, but as a seperate side agreement b/n Disney and the occupant. So if it is part of the reservation, then shouldn't the Member be able to request that the ability to charge to the KTTW should not be extended?

Also, one could make the argument that being able to charge to the KTTW is a member "privilege or benefit", then according the the POS "Member privileges and benefits cannot be extended to non-Club Members who rent Vacation Homes from Club Members." If that's the case, then the member would be responsible for notifying MS that it is a rental. This may not apply in the OP's case, since benefits and privileges may be extended in cases where the "Club Member does not charge any rental or other fees".

 

[Duckfan-in-Chicago]

I fail to see any difference with inherent charges and those allowed only with the room id. A renter/guest with no KTTW charging privilege could still rack up hundreds of $$ of inherent charges and the member would still be held responsible for those long distance calls.

The issue for me is not the KTTW charges- it's that member's have agreed to be responsible for all aspects of the reservation.

Well, I read most of the contract the last few days, which is why I sent a letter to DVC asking for clarification on this issue, and their official policy. One difference to me between inherent charges, and those with KTTW charging is that we're responsible for the rules on property. Property is not defined in the contract as WDW, but the timeshares themselves. If someone staying on my points were found with a gun in the room at the BW, then they could maybe do something to my membership. If that same person was found with a gun at Epcot, that is not my business. If they tried to touch my membership, I would fight it.

Also they go out of their way in this contract to establish that DVCMC and TWDC are separate and distinct entities. Who actually runs the KTTW program, and who is extending this credit upon check-in? If it is TWDC and not DVCMC why do they have any legal right to in any way affect our contracts?

Again, this doesn't just involve renting for money. My parents have three rooms reserved for family members this fall. Now until this is figured out for sure, they'll have to treat them like 2 year olds on the last day, and walk them down to the lobby to make sure everyone has settled up. Just a certain sleezy feel to ending a nice family trip. If DVC would allow and guarantee a no room charging reservation, this wouldn't be a factor.

 

[Chuck S]

Also they go out of their way in this contract to establish that DVCMC and TWDC are separate and distinct entities. Who actually runs the KTTW program, and who is extending this credit upon check-in? If it is TWDC and not DVCMC why do they have any legal right to in any way affect our contracts?

Probably in all the legal paperwork between the two entities, TWDC acknowledges that it will treat all DVC guests like other on-site room only guests...only that DVC will become the responsible party for charges...which ultimately can tie it into a members ressie.

Again, this doesn't just involve renting for money. My parents have three rooms reserved for family members this fall. Now until this is figured out for sure, they'll have to treat them like 2 year olds on the last day, and walk them down to the lobby to make sure everyone has settled up. Just a certain sleezy feel to ending a nice family trip. If DVC would allow and guarantee a no room charging reservation, this wouldn't be a factor.

They will not have to walk them down and treat them like 2 year olds, they should simply receive an itemized bill on their room door like every other guest which would show the charges as being charged to the credit card along with a zero remaining balance. If the computers are down, or there is no bill hanging on their door on the morning of checkout...THEN inquire at the front desk. Of course, it your parents WANT to treat other family members like 2 year olds, they are welcome to do so.

 

[Duckfan-in-Chicago]

They will not have to walk them down and treat them like 2 year olds, they should simply receive an itemized bill on their room door like every other guest which would show the charges as being charged to the credit card along with a zero remaining balance. If the computers are down, or there is no bill hanging on their door on the morning of checkout...THEN inquire at the front desk. Of course, it your parents WANT to treat other family members like 2 year olds, they are welcome to do so.

Go back to the OP. If you could trust the itemized bill that the BIL got, this thread wouldn't exist. It also, btw, said zero remaining balance.

 

[Chuck S]

Go back to the OP. If you could trust the itemized bill that the BIL got, this thread wouldn't exist. It also, btw, said zero remaining balance.

But it also showed that no charges had been made at all, not that charges were made then paid. The OPs BIL knew he made charges, so therefor knew the statement was incorrect.

Certainly your parents family members would know if they made charges and if the statement as presented was correct...so at most your parents should say "Be sure to double check your room charge statement to be sure it is correct."

 

[PamOKW]

If any kind of error was made at any time that resulted in your account showing money was owed to WDW then you would not be allowed to make a reservation until that was cleared up. It's really just that simple.

How and why this happened to the BIL is something that needs to be resolved to clear the charges and allow the member to use his points. Maybe it isn't Disney -- maybe there's a problem on the CC end. I would suggest the BIL call the CC and see what they are showing. Did they deny payment on their end for some reason?

 

[Luvdisney]

What would happen if a I transfered my points to another member, who would be responsible for charges if the renting member didn't pay the room charges? Would I be partually responsible for the room charges since some of my points were used? From what I'm reading it would seem that way, but I really doubt it would hold water in court.

 

[vascubaguy]

What would happen if a I transfered my points to another member, who would be responsible for charges if the renting member didn't pay the room charges? Would I be partually responsible for the room charges since some of my points were used? From what I'm reading it would seem that way, but I really doubt it would hold water in court.

If you transfer the points, the reservations wouldn't be on your account. They would hold the DVC member who received the transfer responsible.

 

[dizfanz]

I agree with cruise-o-matic that there is a difference between two types of charges here. There are the charges against the room and charges against a credit card/cash. The room charges are those like room service, phone calls, etc... As an owner we are clearly responsible here. I don't like it, but we are. Sure, someone can order 20 pizzas while chatting on a phone sex line in Siberia, but how often do you think that happens. The other type of charges, to the credit card, are where I take an exception here. I should not be responsible for a DTD shopping/eating spree. The reason, one can make these charges on a room key solely because they have entered a financial agreement with Disney by advancing the money essentially with a credit card/cash. If you place a credit card down at check-in, you sign an authorization stating that charges made on the room key get charged to your credit card. I, as an owner, do not sign such an authorization. I signed a contract for the room and the condition thereof, even charges against the room. But these other charges are not against the room, there are against the credit card/cash put down by a renter.