Is Delta playing chicken?

[aloysius1992]

Chicken - where two drivers aim at each other and the winner is the one who doesn't turn away.

Of course sometimes everybody loses and that looks like what will happen here.

Gossip is that Delta is taking strategy tips from Lorenzo's advisors.
You know, the ones that helped make Continental and Eastern what they are today.

Delta thought to be provoking a strike and counting on enough pilots to cross their own union line to keep on flying.

But will any, let alone most, former military pilots desert their own side? I don't think so.

 

[roadtripper]

Egads--
I couldn't cross a picket line-- no matter how badly I want to get to FL!!
Here's hoping that they reach a reasonable agreement.

 

[safetymom]

Of course they are playing chicken on both sides. Neither side wants to back down or give in until the final moments.

It seems to me a job that pays less is better than no job but I guess a lot of them haven't realized that yet.

 

[snickerboo]

Yep they're playing chicken.

It seems to me a job that pays less is better than no job but I guess a lot of them haven't realized that yet.

Have to agree with that. I think they knew they needed the strike vote in their game of chicken, though. No strike vote would have given Delta the upper hand.

If I had to bet on what will happen, I think Delta will go for the restraining order OR the judge will force them into binding arbitration. I think it will take a sensible thrid party to force them to grow up and negotiate.

 

[Wish I lived in Fl]

Usually, but not always!

Factory workers have suffered excruciating paycuts and job losses because companies have transferred MFG. overseas. Some workers had no other other good employment options.

Many airline pilots (of all airlines) have learned from past losses and have businesses on the side knowing how volatile the airline employment situation has been.

If the pilots are smart enough to fly a Jet Airliner then there are plenty of other things they can do.

 

[PlutoPony]

If the pilots are smart enough to fly a Jet Airliner then there are plenty of other things they can do.

But very few of them can do any thing else RIGHT AWAY at anything close to the same salaries they're making as Delta pilots! Bottom line is the pilots ARE going to take a pay cut, one way or another. They'll either come to some agreement with Delta that includes a pay cut ('cause Delta's creditors will pull the plug on the company if these cuts aren't made) OR strike in which case the company will go under and they'll have an almost immediate 100% pay cut.... even if they were able to get another job as a pilot it would most likely be for far less $$ than the contract Delta is currently "offering". There's a glut of experienced pilots in the job market today with far less opportunites than pilots - simple law of supply and demand drives down salaries. IMO, the question really is which pay cut will they take????

 

[bicker]

But will any, let alone most, former military pilots desert their own side? I don't think so.

I would hope that military offiicers would follow their commander-in-chief rather than a USO coordinator.

Factory workers have suffered excruciating paycuts and job losses because companies have transferred MFG. overseas.

So have we software developers. We've adjusted to the lower salaries.

If the pilots are smart enough to fly a Jet Airliner then there are plenty of other things they can do.

Not at that salary level.

 

[Johnnyfairplay]

You guys keep acting like these pilots make a fortune. How much do they make? My young son always ends up in the cockpit with the pilots on every flight we take. Twice in the past year a pilot has told my son "don't ever get into this line of work." I questioned them about this and they said the pay stinks and is getting worse all the time. This was on a Southwest flight and a US Airways flight. Anyone know for sure the pay scale for these guys? The one thing you guys aren't factoring in, is how much thses guys NEED to make. Why accept a pay cut when at the new payrate you couldn't pay your bills? If I was going to lose my house I'd sure fight. If you need to make $100,000 to pay your bills why accept $75,000? I'd roll the dice.


johnny

 

[tkldisney]

Another thing too, is if they go on strike they do not get unemployment and depending on what's in the "strike fund" will depend on any pay they get.
My brother works for AK Steel which is in lockout. They just learned that they get unempoyment because it is a lockout not a strike. AK has no strike fund so got nothing until this week.

 

[brentalex]

Everyone seems to think that the pilots caused deltas problems. Well, I think that there are some executives in the company who have really earned that blame. The pilots have not said that they will accept a pay cut. They have made offers of reduced pay, in fact had agreed to a reduction in the past. They feel that they are being asked to shoulder too much of the burden of saving the company. They are probably willing to even give back more than they have offered. That is what happens during negotiations. But to think that it is fine that all employees need to keep taking less and less is just crazy. Major corporations make record profits ( Mobil/Exxon ). Do they share these profits with the employees. NO. My company made over 10 billion dollars in profit last year. What do they do with these profits? They stop fiunding our pension plan because they need more. And we employees need less. It is just wrong.

 

[aloysius1992]

Everyone seems to think that the pilots caused deltas problems. Well, I think that there are some executives in the company who have really earned that blame. The pilots have not said that they will accept a pay cut. They have made offers of reduced pay, in fact had agreed to a reduction in the past. They feel that they are being asked to shoulder too much of the burden of saving the company. They are probably willing to even give back more than they have offered. That is what happens during negotiations. But to think that it is fine that all employees need to keep taking less and less is just crazy. Major corporations make record profits ( Mobil/Exxon ). Do they share these profits with the employees. NO. My company made over 10 billion dollars in profit last year. What do they do with these profits? They stop fiunding our pension plan because they need more. And we employees need less. It is just wrong.

Couldn't agree more.

Just found this on the web.

http://www.targetmarkbooks.com/


Forbes Magazine Book Club selection

"At its core...a story of human drama and shocking corporate malfeasance"..."Nolan's writing is refreshingly candid and unrestrained"...BOOKWIRE REVIEW (December, 2005)

It is based on extensive research, including behind-the-scenes information from 59 members of the "Delta family", the author's in-depth personal knowledge as a member of that family, and his broad experience as a business executive and management consultant.

The book examines the leadership decisions by each of Delta's 7 CEO's and its Board of Directors. It then highlights the decisions that built a highly profitable company for decades and those that have brought it to bankruptcy…and draws universal leadership lessons from them.

 

[aloysius1992]

I would hope that military offiicers would follow their commander-in-chief rather than a USO coordinator.

The Commander in chief analogy would be Lee Moak, he is their elected leader, Grinstein is their employer.

Software developers have adjusted to lower pay because of foreign competition. Pilots have already accepted several major paycuts and loss of most of pension.

Delta MGT. trying to vilify the pilots to distract from their incompetence in a very difficult situation.

THe public may have their opinion about what pilots should be paid but most are speaking from ignorance of what the job entails.

 

[NJBlackBerry]

Doesn't anyone else see a pattern? Traditionally unionized industries with extremely expensive cost structures (steel, auto - anyone looked at GM recently, and now airlines) need to rethink their entire business. No more expensive contracts with unworkable "work rules". The times have changed. The days of paying for "labor peace" are over. Non unionized workplaces are more efficient (read: cheaper) and are eating the lunch of the old world union shops.

This is not management vs. labor. Management screwed up royally. No one forced management to sign the ridiculous contracts that are in place today. But the world market has changed. The only reason Continental has not joined the rest in bankruptcy is because of what was done there in the past years.

Chicken? Perhaps. But most certainly survival.

 

[aloysius1992]

But very few of them can do any thing else RIGHT AWAY at anything close to the same salaries they're making as Delta pilots! Bottom line is the pilots ARE going to take a pay cut, one way or another. They'll either come to some agreement with Delta that includes a pay cut ('cause Delta's creditors will pull the plug on the company if these cuts aren't made) OR strike in which case the company will go under and they'll have an almost immediate 100% pay cut.... even if they were able to get another job as a pilot it would most likely be for far less $$ than the contract Delta is currently "offering". There's a glut of experienced pilots in the job market today with far less opportunites than pilots - simple law of supply and demand drives down salaries. IMO, the question really is which pay cut will they take????

Think of olive pressing. You get the most oil on the first pressing, less oil on the second pressing, even less and more bitter oil on the third.

This paycut would be the 4th since 9/11. (Counting Delta defaulting on pension payments as the 3rd).

Any more of a paycut and DH isn't willing to work as an airline pilot anymore,ever again. The job ain't that great.

 

[DISNEYDUET]

Of course they are playing chicken on both sides. Neither side wants to back down or give in until the final moments.

It seems to me a job that pays less is better than no job but I guess a lot of them haven't realized that yet.

I was reading on one of the business sites yesterday that most Delta pilots are making upwards of $300,000 a year. I think that was for a seasoned pilot. BUT, think about all the clerks and baggage personnel! Most making $35,000 +. They would be out of a job too. My grandfather was a pilot for 24 yrs with Pan Am. When they went under it was awful. I can remember friends of the family who worked behind the scenes at Pan Am having to go on unemployment because the market was now full of airline personnel looking for jobs.

 

[CarolA]

Usually, but not always!

Factory workers have suffered excruciating paycuts and job losses because companies have transferred MFG. overseas. Some workers had no other other good employment options.

Many airline pilots (of all airlines) have learned from past losses and have businesses on the side knowing how volatile the airline employment situation has been.

If the pilots are smart enough to fly a Jet Airliner then there are plenty of other things they can do.

And most of those "side businessess" don't provide near the average $169,000 a DL pilot makes

Yes, there are plenty of things they can do. However, they would have to work normal 40 hour work weeks etc... And they probably won't all get the nice wages they make now. (They interviewed one on TV who is going to be a teacher, he currently makes $125,000 but "I can't take an 18% pay cut" When asked what he would do "I have a teaching certificate" Has this man LOOKED at the salarys teachers make.. If he can't take an 18% pay cut he certainly can't afford to teach )

And keep in mind that just before 9/11 DL pilots got VERY generous raises. So at the time they were the highest paid in the industry.......yes they have had paycuts, but they were VERY eagar to cash in when times were good, not near as happy about times being bad are they?

 

[new_mouser]

Major corporations make record profits ( Mobil/Exxon ). Do they share these profits with the employees. NO.

Actually most large corporations (including Exxon Mobil) offer employee stock option plans. The logic is that employees who are participating in and benefitting from these plans are more productive because they have a financial stake in the company as opposed to non-contributory pension plans where there is less incentive to perform. The reason why Exxon Mobil was ranked as the most profitable company by Fortune magazine was based on its stockholders' equity, so the employees who are participating in that company's plan are making out quite nicely.

 

[CarolA]

Actually most large corporations (including Exxon Mobil) offer employee stock option plans. The logic is that employees who are participating in and benefitting from these plans are more productive because they have a financial stake in the company as opposed to non-contributory pension plans where there is less incentive to perform. The reason why Exxon Mobil was ranked as the most profitable company by Fortune magazine was based on its stockholders' equity, so the employees who are participating in that company's plan are making out quite nicely.

I used to work for a big public company. I made a good amount on the stock option and stock purchase plans.... (Our purchase plan was a 15% discount off the lower of the prices at the beginning or end of the period, so if it went up for six months you were buying at a lower value 6 months ago plus a discount!)

 

[bicker]

You guys keep acting like these pilots make a fortune. How much do they make?

More than twice as much as me... for most folks, that's the most significant measure.

The one thing you guys aren't factoring in, is how much thses guys NEED to make.

How would you reconcile someone's claim that they "need" to make twice as much as you do?

Everyone seems to think that the pilots caused deltas problems.

As far as I can tell from this thread, no one seems to think that the pilots caused Delta's problems. Most folks agree that the legacy airlines' problems stem from skyrocketing fuel costs, cut-throat price competition, maintenance on an aging fleet of aircraft, and the inflexibility inherant in a legacy seniority system.

What's most notable is that most of us aren't talking about blame. Blame doesn't resolve anything or get anything accomplished.

Do they share these profits with the employees.

No. They share these profits with their owners, like my elderly mother hoping to live out her years on the proceeds of her retirement mutal funds.

No more expensive contracts with unworkable "work rules".

Exactly right. The contracts are the problem. Let the open market rule.

 

[gnoles]

Here's where I found some hourly rates and monthly guarantees for pilots. The link hits the Delta page...

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/delta-200502248.htm