Is being gay a lifestyle choice?

[MouseWorshipin]

Some of us may believe that the Bible tells us that being homosexual is a sin but that doesn't mean that we hate anyone. I dearly love my friends who are g/l.

But do you think (or does your denomination teach) that they are doomed to suffer the fires of hell? Or do they go to heaven all the same?

 

[dcentity2000]

Ok, I'll admit it...this puzzles me. I have never heard of Progressive Christianity before joining the Dis. But I have seen some of your posts mention that word before today.

Who leads your worship services? A priest? pastor? minister? Do they refer to the Bible during your services at all? I'm not trying to be sarcastic...I'm just puzzled because the whole "washing away your sins" is so fundamental to Christianity, (or so I thought), even among Catholics/Protestants there seems to be a consensus that SOMEHOW people can get their sins washed away.

here's just ONE of the many places the Bible mentions washing sins away:

Acts 22:16- "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on His name."

Did I misunderstand your post?

Joy

I'm not aware of any particularly "Progressive" institutions anywhere near where I live, so I attend Church of England services (the norm in the UK). From what I know, Progressive Christianity is more of a study than a denomination. I was introduced to it by friends quite a while back and have never looked back since

The notion that you can "wash away" your sins is interesting and difficult at the same time. On the one hand, there is an underlying theme of forgiveness, but on the other there is an underlying theme of autonomy.

You couldn't, therefore, go on a killing spree and then have your sins washed away. It's not as simple as that. You need to totally repent and reject your past actions. To do this in the example given would take great devotion, thought and time to do.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there's no drive-thru method of freeing yourself from your sins. The onus is on you as a free individual to do the work to repent.



Rich::

 

[MouseWorshipin]

......was omitted due to the conflict the Catholic church has in praying to Saints. Evangelicals believe the worship and praying to saints is akin to worshiping other gods.

However, Mouse has just stated that they have all of the same commandments and just combine a few that we separate.

No, we do have all that stuff about statues, it is in the 1st Commandment. There's more stuff after, "Thou Shalt Not Have Other Gods Before Me," and that's what it is about. No statues, although crucifixes and statues of Mary, the saints, Josephe, the whole Nativity-thing --- those are OK, because they aren't put before He who Is.

And we do pray to the saints ("in all their glory" ). We don't believe that they themselves will help us with whatever we need, but we do pray to them to intercede on our behalf. Mary, too. Kinda like asking mom to go and get Dad to say, "OK."

 

[JennyMominRI]

I think the following 2 statements from the Largest Organization of Jews in the US (Reform Judaism) Makes it pretty clear how they view this topic


RESOLUTION WHEREAS, justice and human dignity are cherished Jewish values, and

WHEREAS, in March of 1999 the Women's Rabbinic Network passed a resolution urging the Central Conference of American Rabbis to bring the issue of honoring ceremonies between two Jews of the same gender to the floor of the convention plenum, and

WHEREAS, the institutions of Reform Judaism have a long history of support for civil and equal rights for gays and lesbians, and

WHEREAS, North American organizations of the Reform Movement have passed resolutions in support of civil marriage for gays and lesbians, therefore

WE DO HEREBY RESOLVE, that the relationship of a Jewish, same gender couple is worthy of affirmation through appropriate Jewish ritual, and

FURTHER RESOLVED, that we recognize the diversity of opinions within our ranks on this issue. We support the decision of those who choose to officiate at rituals of union for same-gender couples, and we support the decision of those who do not, and

FURTHER RESOLVED, that we call upon the CCAR to support all colleagues in their choices in this matter, and

FURTHER RESOLVED, that we also call upon the CCAR to develop both educational and liturgical resources in this area.



1998-JUN: The "Ad Hoc committee on Human Sexuality" issued their report. It is well worth reading for persons of all religious affiliations -- and none -- because it delves into all aspects of human sexuality from a spiritual perspective. Some points raised were: "Sexuality and sexual expression are integral and powerful elements in the potential wholeness of human beings."
"Authentic and ethical human relationships should be grounded in both truth and honesty."
"Both partners in an intimate relationship should strive to communicate lovingly."
"Reform Judaism encourages adults of all ages and physical and mental capabilities to develop expressions of their sexuality that are both responsible and joyful. The abuse of human sexuality can be destructive to our emotional, spiritual and physical health."
"The importance of family, whether biologically or relationally based, remains the foundation of meaningful human existence."
"For sexual expression in human relationships to reach the fullness of its potential, it should be grounded in fidelity and the intention of permanence....A sexual relationship is covenantal when it is stable and enduring and includes mutual esteem, trust, and faithfulness."
"In a Reform Jewish context, a relationship may attain a measure of kedusha (holiness) when both partners voluntarily set themselves apart exclusively for each other, thereby finding unique emotional, sexual and spiritual intimacy."
"...kiddushah (holiness) may be present in committed, same gender relationships between two Jews, and that these relationships can serve as the foundation of stable Jewish families, thus adding strength to the Jewish community. In this spirit, we believe that the relationship of a Jewish, same-gender couple is worthy of affirmation through appropriate Jewish ritual, and that each rabbi should decide about officiation according to his/her own informed rabbinic conscience." 3

2000-MAR: The CCAR overwhelmingly approved a resolution giving rabbis the option of presiding at gay and lesbian commitment ceremonies. The resolution stated, in part: "WHEREAS justice and human dignity are cherished Jewish values, and
WHEREAS, in March of 1999 the Women’s Rabbinic Network passed a resolution urging the Central Conference of American Rabbis to bring the issue of honoring ceremonies between two Jews of the same gender to the floor of the convention plenum, and
WHEREAS, the institutions of Reform Judaism have a long history of support for civil and equal rights for gays and lesbians, and
WHEREAS, North American organizations of the Reform Movement have passed resolutions in support of civil marriage for gays and lesbians, therefore
WE DO HEREBY RESOLVE, that the relationship of a Jewish, same gender couple is worthy of affirmation through appropriate Jewish ritual, and
FURTHER RESOLVED, that we recognize the diversity of opinions within our ranks on this issue. We support the decision of those who choose to officiate at rituals of union for same-gender couples, and we support the decision of those who do not, and
FURTHER RESOLVED, that we call upon the CCAR to support all colleagues in their choices in this matter, and
FURTHER RESOLVED, that we also call upon the CCAR to develop both educational and liturgical resources in this area." 4

 

[Buckalew11]

Mouseworshippin,

I have no idea who is going to heaven and who isn't. My belief is that true followers of Christ go to heaven.

 

[Snow_White]

Every college that teaches this stuff begins by "correcting" the "common misconception" that humans evolved from monkeys/apes.

I am curious as to where you were taught otherwise.?

Lord no, I would never say that we evolved FROM apes!!! LOL We simply both have common ancestors and Lucy is just one of OUR ancestors (more ape-like than "us" though).

 

[Snow_White]

Scientists come up with theories that require more faith to believe than the Bible.

God, no. Scientists base theories on facts, not tall tales. Google Johanson's Lucy and you'll learn.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

Mouseworshippin,

I have no idea who is going to heaven and who isn't. My belief is that true followers of Christ go to heaven.

I totally get that you love everyone and want to see every straight, gay, person, penguin, dolphin, and dinosaur in heaven.

But does your faith or denomination (I don't know what you belong to) teach that gay people go to hell? Are they considered sinners doomed to hell, or no?

(I keep asking this. If I'm being a pain in the patootie, just say so.)

 

[Buckalew11]

Here is what the website said:

We affirm God's plan for marriage and sexual intimacy – one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a "valid alternative lifestyle." The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ.


You and I believe a lot of the same things and many different things. I don't believe that if you sin and then die without having opportunity to confess to God or anyone, that you'll go to Hell. We've talked about that before on here. I screw up and sin everyday (either by doing the wrong thing or sins of omission, doesn't matter, I am quite imperfect) and if I die with a sin in m life, I still believe that I will go to heaven because of what Christ did for me (and everyone) on that cross (because I have accepted it as the way of salvation).

 

[MouseWorshipin]

Here is what the website said:

We affirm God's plan for marriage and sexual intimacy – one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a "valid alternative lifestyle." The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ.


You and I believe a lot of the same things and many different things. I don't believe that if you sin and then die without having opportunity to confess to God or anyone, that you'll go to Hell. We've talked about that before on here. I screw up and sin everyday (either by doing the wrong thing or sins of omission, doesn't matter, I am quite imperfect) and if I die with a sin in m life, I still believe that I will go to heaven because of what Christ did for me (and everyone) on that cross (because I have accepted it as the way of salvation).

I'm trying every way I can to ask this without sounding rude, which I genuinely and sincerly don't want to be. OK? So, bear with me here, I really am trying to figure this out. I'm ignorant, not rude, and just as imperfect as you - maybe more. (never thought I'd see myself type that sentence.

If you accept that Christ died for you, then you can sin and go to heaven?

Does this count all sins? (We have, like, levels of sin. Little ones and big ones, that kind of thing.) Or just regular, little sins?

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

I'm trying every way I can to ask this without sounding rude, which I genuinely and sincerly don't want to be. OK? So, bear with me here, I really am trying to figure this out. I'm ignorant, not rude, and just as imperfect as you - maybe more. (never thought I'd see myself type that sentence.

If you accept that Christ died for you, then you can sin and go to heaven?

Does this count all sins? (We have, like, levels of sin. Little ones and big ones, that kind of thing.) Or just regular, little sins?

Yes, you go to heaven as all sin is forgiven if you accept the gift of salvation.

God does not rank sin; sin is sin.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

Yes, you go to heaven as all sin is forgiven if you accept the gift of salvation.

God does not rank sin; sin is sin.

Thank you!

 

[Buckalew11]

Right.

All sin is equal in my belief. Sin separates us from God. We need forgiveness for sin. When I accepted Christ as my savior, He forgave me. I am His. Nothing can separate me from God now (unless I denounced Him, I guess).

Now, this is not a "free sinning" card. I CANNOT go out and do anything sinful against God just because He has forgiven me. I cannot go out here and commit murder because God has already forgiven me. NO! I can't say, "Well, I am 'saved from Hell' so I can lie cheat or steal". NO! I must try to live my life free of sin. I can't intentionally commit sin against God.

What it boils down to is that what is in my heart. And only God knows my heart. He knows if I am serious and knows if I am trying and if I mean it. I might be able to fool you or my best friend or even my DH, but I can't, in any way, fool God.

I believe this concept is called "Once saved, always saved."
But please don't confuse it a free pass to sin.

Decided to see if the website could explain it better. Of course, I think they did! LOL :

"God's Purpose of Grace
Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. …All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end."


If I didn't have the assurance of God's love and forgiveness and had to worry and think about trying to be perfect and w/o sin as my last breath was being took, I'd drive myself insane, I am sure. For me, it would be more about what I had to do & not do to "get to Heaven" than about what Christ had done for me.



"

 

[LukenDC]

Some of us may believe that the Bible tells us that being homosexual is a sin but that doesn't mean that we hate anyone. I dearly love my friends who are g/l.

I hear so many Christian conservatives voice their disapproval of homosexuality, yet claim to not hate gays and lesbians. Many Christian conservatives are in denial given that conservative Christian organizations oppose hate crime protections for gay and lesbian people who face intimidation on a daily basis, oppose refugee status for gays and lesbians who will be tortured and executed if deported to their home countries, turn a blind eye to police harassment of gays, attempt to criminalize homosexuality, and oppose anti-bullying legislation for the schools. It reminds me of Germany in the late 1930s when the German people tacitly accepted the government's terror campaign against Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, the disabled, and political prisoners.

Whenever gay and lesbian people speak up and demand to be treated with dignity and respect, they are accused of seeking "special rights." Yet the true people seeking special rights are the Christian fundamentalists who want their interpretation of the Bible to be the basis of our civil law.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

I hear so many Christian conservatives voice their disapproval of homosexuality, yet claim to not hate gays and lesbians. Many Christian conservatives are in denial given that conservative Christian organizations oppose hate crime protections for gay and lesbian people who face intimidation on a daily basis, oppose refugee status for gays and lesbians who will be tortured and executed if deported to their home countries, turn a blind eye to police harassment of gays, attempt to criminalize homosexuality, and oppose anti-bullying legislation for the schools. It reminds me of Germany in the late 1930s when the German people tacitly accepted the government's terror campaign against Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, the disabled, and political prisoners.

Whenever gay and lesbian people speak up and demand to be treated with dignity and respect, they are accused of seeking "special rights." Yet the true people seeking special rights are the Christian fundamentalists who want their interpretation of the Bible to be the basis of our civil law.

I personally don't understand "hate crime" laws or legislation if something is already a crime. As far as a comparison to Germany, I think its way over the top to say conditions are comparable to a tacit acceptance of a government terror campaign.

Many, many people believe that marriage is between one man and one women -- and their beliefs are not just based on religion.

We all struggle with different vices, and all people deserve dignity and respect, but I will not condone (nor respect) the vice itself.

 

[LukenDC]

I personally don't understand "hate crime" laws or legislation if something is already a crime. As far as a comparison to Germany, I think its way over the top to say conditions are comparable to a tacit acceptance of a government terror campaign.

Many, many people believe that marriage is between one man and one women -- and their beliefs are not just based on religion.

We all struggle with different vices, and all people deserve dignity and respect, but I will not condone (nor respect) the vice itself.

Hate crimes differ from ordinary crimes because their goal is to intimidate and terrorize an entire class of people.

My post said nothing about marriage. It's about the fundamental right of people to live without fear and intimidation. I strongly disapprove of organized religion. I believe that it is woefully misguided and of questionable morality. That has not stopped me from writing to the Saudi ambassador about persecution of Christians or protesting Chinese limits on the freedom of religion. While I do not respect Christianity, I do support the right of Christians everywhere to worship as they choose without fear of persecution. I wish that conservative Christians would accord the same respect to other groups. Perhaps that is asking too much from the close-minded.

Fundamentalism inhibits a thinking mind.

 

[Sylvester McBean]

I spent my day at one of my favorite churches - Busch Gardens. on the way home, I learned we have discovered an intermediate skull fossil link between **** erectus and **** sapien. carbon dating is still putting forth evidence the beginning of our species at 3.2 million years, not a tidy 2,000 or so.

it was a good day for us 'believers'.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Hate crimes differ from ordinary crimes because their goal is to intimidate and terrorize an entire class of people.

My post said nothing about marriage. It's about the fundamental right of people to live without fear and intimidation. I strongly disapprove of organized religion. I believe that it is woefully misguided and of questionable morality. That has not stopped me from writing to the Saudi ambassador about persecution of Christians or protesting Chinese limits on the freedom of religion. While I do not respect Christianity, I do support the right of Christians everywhere to worship as they choose without fear of persecution. I wish that conservative Christians would accord the same respect to other groups. Perhaps that is asking too much from the close-minded.

Fundamentalism inhibits a thinking mind.

Yes, people should be able live without fear or intimidation. I respect that you back it up with action.

Not all changes from what is fundamental (or well-established) are progress. Christians often think about current society vis a vie the Bible. As we and our children live in this society, we will have a voice, as will those who disagree.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

I spent my day at one of my favorite churches - Busch Gardens. on the way home, I learned we have discovered an intermediate skull fossil link between **** erectus and **** sapien. carbon dating is still putting forth evidence the beginning of our species at 3.2 million years, not a tidy 2,000 or so.

it was a good day for us 'believers'.

Every day is a good day for us "believers."

 

[txgirl]

God, no. Scientists base theories on facts, not tall tales. Google Johanson's Lucy and you'll learn.

Don't you find it interesting that some of the world's most famous scientists are convinced of God's existence and many are bible believing Christians?

Pasteur said that the more he learned about science the more *convinced* he was of God's presence.

People are going to believe what they will. I can say that I agree with Jimmie about lives changing when they become Christians. No brainwashing here!

The whole *free to sin* if you are saved question is really easy to answer. When the holy spirit is residing within you, sin is no longer a comfortable tenant. The two spirits are combative and the things that you used to do with little or no guilt are suddenly vile and you despise them. Do you still continue to mess up? MOST CERTAINLY, but there always follows a period of conviction and a desire to turn away.

As far as Sylvester (or anyone else who is atheist) my question is (very sincere, no attack )

Do you have moments when you know there is something more? Your baby's newborn breath and the overwhelming- almost painful love you have for them when you see them for the first time?

Have you never laid eyes on something that was majestic in nature that took your breath away?

Even if you say, no bible, no Jesus, no church I just can't help but wonder about the no God at all stance?