Is another recession coming?

[ilovemk76]

So let me ask, 'whats the alternative. Seriously. This is a global market, our kids are already at the bottom of the barrel as far as technology jobs are concerned. My company cannot find American born Phd scientist in 2011. Google, Yahoo and microsoft all are screaming that they have to hire from Asia and SE Asia for most of their technology jobs. Google executives were on 60 minutes last summer lamenting the fact that they cannot find American computer science/computer engineering graduate student.

My husband is an oil exc and it takes them months of hiring (and yes oil companies are hiring) to find qualified entry level candidates in science in engineering and his company pay 65K starting salary.
Boeing just got a military contract to build fighter jets and is thinking about moving the operation to the UK because they can't find a qualified pool of trained people here in PA. Don't you think that's sad when we have to get a foreign company to build our military aparatus because we're not tech saavy?

Now add that to the fact that we make absolutely very little here.

Now health care still seems to be a growing field but that's still a field that in order to make a good salary you need a college degree. Do you really want a GP or a Nurse practicioner who was uneducated? A large portion of our population is older, PT, OT, radiologist, geriatric medicine are all areas with expected growth but once again, do I really want some one who is not trained? Radiologist are required to be certified and trained here in the US to ensure that a basic min. of standard is achieve. We complain now when cc companies ship their customer service to India because we can't understand them.

Heck in NYC in order to be eligible to take the Police exam (and this is in order to take the test, not even talking about what they want in order to get hired) you have to have 60 college credits from an accredited college or university or 2 years military service.

So either we educate our children or we get ready for a generation of kids who are only fit to serve breakfast at cracker barrel or a larger and larger population of our country who can only find minimum wage, menial jobs.

So where does it leave us if our workforce falls further and further behind and let's face it, every thing in 2011 is about technology. Heck, even farmers are changing the way they farm due to the advancements in agriculture. I know so many farmers in Souther NJ who's kids are in college getting degrees in Agriculture and animal husbandry in order to come back and run the family farm.

Total bull on their part. There are many with the degrees that are not being hired because the Chinese, Indian and others will work on an H1B for 1/3 the price. They want to make technology a minimum wage job.

 

[Arielle22]

Total bull on their part. There are many with the degrees that are not being hired because the Chinese, Indian and others will work on an H1B for 1/3 the price. They want to make technology a minimum wage job.

A company can't bring in someone on a H1B unless they prove they can't find a qualified US citizen to do the job.

 

[eliza61]

Total bull on their part. There are many with the degrees that are not being hired because the Chinese, Indian and others will work on an H1B for 1/3 the price. They want to make technology a minimum wage job.

Of course there are. I'm sure thats true. but in the fields I work for (I'm a chemist for a fortune 500 chemical company) we hire according to degrees. We recruit in colleges here. My husband is a vp at a oil refinering and there is no 1/3 the cost. They hire at whatever salary the union negotiates and the pickings are extremely slim.

I'm not trying to get into a topic of why companies move their workforce out of the country. What my point is and I apologize for making it convoluted, is that every thing has ramifications.

If we say, "the government should cut off welfare" what does that do? Do people magically get jobs? Do we think the communities will step up to the plate because thats what happen "in my day"? and if they don't what do you do with this huge underclass population that is now there? They certainly aren't going to disappear?

If we say, "the government should stop funding education" what does that mean? Does that impact the next generation of our workforce? Whether we like it or not, there ability to get a decent salary job without a degree is shrinking. Yes, it can be done. sure but the disparity between incomes of hs graduates and college graduates has been proven, it's a fact. so do we acknowlege that or do we keep on saying. "back in the day, you went to college on your own"? Do poor children really get pushed out because they have the misfortune of being born into poverty and their school systems don't have the resources of more affluent areas.

Does this make the US fall further behind and once again, there is nothing to argue here, it's been proven our kids are falling behind. (please don't tell me your kids arent. I'm speaking generally, I know, no one on the dis has a kid who doesn't excel in school)

If we say "let's get rid of medicare and medicaid" what does that do? Do you really think that's going to magically make the country solvent? if you do, How?

 

[Muushka]

Student loan default rate is about 7%. Generally student loans are very hard to forgive. they are not discharged in bankruptcy anymore and federal loans are forgiven only partially & usually only after 10-20 years. not much impact on the national debt.

So let me ask, 'whats the alternative. Seriously. This is a global market, our kids are already at the bottom of the barrel as far as technology jobs are concerned. My company cannot find American born Phd scientist in 2011. Google, Yahoo and microsoft all are screaming that they have to hire from Asia and SE Asia for most of their technology jobs. Google executives were on 60 minutes last summer lamenting the fact that they cannot find American computer science/computer engineering graduate student.

My husband is an oil exc and it takes them months of hiring (and yes oil companies are hiring) to find qualified entry level candidates in science in engineering and his company pay 65K starting salary.
Boeing just got a military contract to build fighter jets and is thinking about moving the operation to the UK because they can't find a qualified pool of trained people here in PA. Don't you think that's sad when we have to get a foreign company to build our military aparatus because we're not tech saavy?

Now add that to the fact that we make absolutely very little here.

Now health care still seems to be a growing field but that's still a field that in order to make a good salary you need a college degree. Do you really want a GP or a Nurse practicioner who was uneducated? A large portion of our population is older, PT, OT, radiologist, geriatric medicine are all areas with expected growth but once again, do I really want some one who is not trained? Radiologist are required to be certified and trained here in the US to ensure that a basic min. of standard is achieve. We complain now when cc companies ship their customer service to India because we can't understand them.

Heck in NYC in order to be eligible to take the Police exam (and this is in order to take the test, not even talking about what they want in order to get hired) you have to have 60 college credits from an accredited college or university or 2 years military service.

So either we educate our children or we get ready for a generation of kids who are only fit to serve breakfast at cracker barrel or a larger and larger population of our country who can only find minimum wage, menial jobs. So now you've got a smaller and smaller middle class base and a growing working poor base that does not pay taxes.

So where does it leave us if our workforce falls further and further behind and let's face it, every thing in 2011 is about technology. Heck, even farmers are changing the way they farm due to the advancements in agriculture. I know so many farmers in Souther NJ who's kids are in college getting degrees in Agriculture and animal husbandry in order to come back and run the family farm.

Seems to me, this would be a worse scenerio.

What is the alternative? Get the government out of student loans! They made such great decisions with the mortgage industry that we want to trust them with student loans?

The official student loan default rate, according to the government, is now seven percent. That rivals the default rate for credit cards (8.8 percent) and home mortgages (9.1 percent). Because the government is lending most of the money, every default leaves the taxpayers on the hook.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40772705/ns/business-cnbc_tv/t/student-loans-leave-crushing-debt-burden/

Yes, you are right, default is at 7%, but what is down the road is what is scary.

I am not advocating people not going to college. Far from it. But what I am saying is that the idea that everyone should go to college is just wrong. The cost of college has grown exponentially in that past several years, and nobody says a word about it. It is just accepted.

I have heard some talk of forgiving student loans. Hopefully that is not going to happen.

As far as out kids being at the bottom of the barrel, I wonder why that is? Our country has a lousy education system. That's why.

Look at what happened in Atlanta. Unbelievable. That "No Child Left Behind" program is working wonderfully.

Atlanta educators charged with cheating on students' standardized tests received a letter from Erroll Davis, Atlanta's interim superintendent last week.

He told the 178 educators they had until Wednesday, July 20, to either resign or get fired.

"You either confessed to cheating or were otherwise implicated in wrongdoing," Davis wrote. "We give you the opportunity to resign your employment with APS prior to official notice of my intent to recommend your termination."

What the letter didn't note is that what could be Atlanta's largest-ever mass teacher termination is not as simple as Davis would make it seem -- even in a right-to-work state like Georgia, which can circumvent some of the labyrinthine policies implemented in states with compulsory teachers union membership.

Depending on the specifics of a case, the teacher firing process in Georgia can range from days to weeks to years. Costs mount as legal fees accrue. Atlanta has put the accused teachers on administrative leave, meaning the district will continue to pay their salaries as the termination processes unfold.

"Since Georgia is a right-to-work state, [the termination process is] probably about as streamlined as any in the nation," said Hayward Richardson, a professor of education at Georgia State University. But even so, the process can wear on, running officials thousands of dollars in legal fees and salaries paid to the teachers who face dismissal.

"This high volume is a rare instance for not only Atlanta but also school systems around the country," Richardson added.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/19/long-road-ahead-in-firing_n_903920.html

Published July 16, 2011



ATLANTA – Teachers spent nights huddled in a back room, erasing wrong answers on students' test sheets and filling in the correct bubbles. At another school, struggling students were seated next to higher-performing classmates so they could copy answers.

Those and other confessions are contained in a new state report that reveals how far some Atlanta public schools went to raise test scores in the nation's largest-ever cheating scandal. Investigators concluded that nearly half the city's schools allowed the cheating to go unchecked for as long as a decade, beginning in 2001.

Administrators — pressured to maintain high scores under the federal No Child Left Behind law — punished or fired those who reported anything amiss and created a culture of "fear, intimidation and retaliation," according to the report released earlier this month, two years after officials noticed a suspicious spike in some scores.

The report names 178 teachers and principals, and 82 of those confessed. Tens of thousands of children at the 44 schools, most in the city's poorest neighborhoods, were allowed to advance to higher grades, even though they didn't know basic concepts.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/07/16/atlanta-schools-created-culture-cheating-fear/#ixzz1SeqB5iKu

So, let me get this straight. These teachers did this cheating, AND it will be difficult to fire them.
Oh yeah. Our education system is great.

And while I understand that these teachers were forced by their superiors to do this, tell me, if it were you,
would you not blow the whistle on this mess?

No job is worth doing to these children what these teachers did.

 

[Colleen27]

But what I am saying is that the idea that everyone should go to college is just wrong. The cost of college has grown exponentially in that past several years, and nobody says a word about it. It is just accepted.

Because while the costs of going to college have increased, the prospects for life without a degree have declined. When a degree is the only way to earn a reasonable living - not a life of luxury but just life that isn't living in a slum worrying about whether to pay the rent or the electric bill or still residing with one's parents because your pay isn't enough to afford to live on your own - of course everyone is going to try to attain that. Because what is the alternative? To resign oneself to patching together part-time, low-wage jobs and never being able to afford "the American dream" of a home and a couple of kids?

 

[eliza61]

What is the alternative? Get the government out of student loans! They made such great decisions with the mortgage industry that we want to trust them with student loans?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40772705/ns/business-cnbc_tv/t/student-loans-leave-crushing-debt-burden/

No job is worth doing to these children what these teachers did.

But that's just it Muush. the FHA and Va mortgages were and are FABULOUS programs. % wise they have helped millions qualify and get great houses. The problem isn't that the programs did not work the probably was they did not evolve and oversight them as they should have been.
Prior to this recession, where ever bank and mortgage lender absolutely lost their minds, FHA backed loans had some of the lowest default rates. 95% of people who got fha mortgages paid them and went onto home owner heaven

So maybe the answer is to not get rid of the program but find out what the heck went so horribly wrong.

That's what I don't see being address. Simply saying "oh if the government would leave us alone" is IMO just as bad as having the government try to fix every thing.

The problem wasn't "No child left behind". The problem was we implemented a program without getting teachers input into how to make it work without any thought to how school districts work, how different children work. So maybe the answer is some where in the middle. Maybe the answer is for a funneling of funds. let the feds funnel the money to the states & Let the states say this is the plan that works best for our children. who knows, but that's the discussion I'd like to see take place. Not just ok, cut all funding and hope the schools can bake enough cookies to make up the difference.

Now I would love to really believe that not all kids need to go to college. I really would, but the reality is far different. So what do we do with the kids who don't go to college? Nowadays some college is needed before you can take a entrance test. You know I'm back in school for baking. Baking of all things, I love it and I'm not trying to make a living at it. The kids in my culinary school all have to take minimun college courses and in order to graduate they have to have at least 30 credits of non culinery course work (math, science, english).

So I'd like to see a discussion around "if all kids don't need to go to college" what are the probabilities they will escape a life of working poor? If they don't go to college (and I include trade schools in this also) and walk out with a H.S. diploma, do they become the working poor still needing foodstamps and medicare? What's the better investment?

 

[NotUrsula]

The kids in my culinary school all have to take minimum college courses and in order to graduate they have to have at least 30 credits of non culinery course work (math, science, english).

This is required because these schools must be accredited to offer any kind of "degree" (as opposed to a certificate), and they have to offer a degree in order to qualify to have their students receive federally-backed loans. It's a catch-22. The schools are expensive, and they can't get decent enrollment if the students can't get loans.

There are vo-tech high schools in many places that will teach you how to cook, and for that matter, working in a kitchen will teach you, too. The additional coursework is, of course, useful for movement into management, which is pretty much the only way to really make any money at cooking -- unless, of course, you happen to translate well on television.

There are still a fair number of trades that can be learned via apprenticeship, and very few of them are things that can be sent offshore. Also, don't forget sales; that is the time-honored best way to manage to make money with only a HS diploma.

PS: On the mortgage thing; I think the problem was definitely that the banks were allowed to take something that was a good idea (opening the market to some people who might not conventionally qualify), and run with it without any real controls on the level of risk being undertaken.

 

[ilovemk76]

A company can't bring in someone on a H1B unless they prove they can't find a qualified US citizen to do the job.

That is extremely easy to do. Put out a request and have a list of 25 requirements. Nobody has all of them so you make an offer at half the person's current salary. They turn you down. Now you have the proof you need. The H1B will take tha job at an even lesser salary.

 

[Arielle22]

That is extremely easy to do. Put out a request and have a list of 25 requirements. Nobody has all of them so you make an offer at half the person's current salary. They turn you down. Now you have the proof you need. The H1B will take tha job at an even lesser salary.

Then process all the paperwork and make sure your company follows all the rules for the H1B. Still not as easy as you make it out to be.

Also there is a prevailing wage requirement to prevent employers from doing what you suggest.

 

[nunzia]

Student loan default rate is about 7%. Generally student loans are very hard to forgive. they are not discharged in bankruptcy anymore and federal loans are forgiven only partially & usually only after 10-20 years. not much impact on the national debt.

So let me ask, 'whats the alternative. Seriously. This is a global market, our kids are already at the bottom of the barrel as far as technology jobs are concerned. My company cannot find American born Phd scientist in 2011. Google, Yahoo and microsoft all are screaming that they have to hire from Asia and SE Asia for most of their technology jobs. Google executives were on 60 minutes last summer lamenting the fact that they cannot find American computer science/computer engineering graduate student.

My husband is an oil exc and it takes them months of hiring (and yes oil companies are hiring) to find qualified entry level candidates in science in engineering and his company pay 65K starting salary.
Boeing just got a military contract to build fighter jets and is thinking about moving the operation to the UK because they can't find a qualified pool of trained people here in PA. Don't you think that's sad when we have to get a foreign company to build our military aparatus because we're not tech saavy?

Now add that to the fact that we make absolutely very little here.

Now health care still seems to be a growing field but that's still a field that in order to make a good salary you need a college degree. Do you really want a GP or a Nurse practicioner who was uneducated? A large portion of our population is older, PT, OT, radiologist, geriatric medicine are all areas with expected growth but once again, do I really want some one who is not trained? Radiologist are required to be certified and trained here in the US to ensure that a basic min. of standard is achieve. We complain now when cc companies ship their customer service to India because we can't understand them.

Heck in NYC in order to be eligible to take the Police exam (and this is in order to take the test, not even talking about what they want in order to get hired) you have to have 60 college credits from an accredited college or university or 2 years military service.

So either we educate our children or we get ready for a generation of kids who are only fit to serve breakfast at cracker barrel or a larger and larger population of our country who can only find minimum wage, menial jobs. So now you've got a smaller and smaller middle class base and a growing working poor base that does not pay taxes.

So where does it leave us if our workforce falls further and further behind and let's face it, every thing in 2011 is about technology. Heck, even farmers are changing the way they farm due to the advancements in agriculture. I know so many farmers in Souther NJ who's kids are in college getting degrees in Agriculture and animal husbandry in order to come back and run the family farm.

Seems to me, this would be a worse scenerio.

Then maybe we should focus our help on those in the science fields..I know far too many kids of my daughter's generation who constantly 'go to school' just taking this and that and milk the systen for grants with no intention, goal or purpose to really get a degree and job. Everything needs to be re-evaluated to reward those who have motivation and purpose and to push those who are just lazy and players into supporting themselves.

 

[tink2dw]

I am a dumb little peon. And I could see this coming since nixon screwed the nation over. It has been slipping down hill ever since. I meant to have my $1000.00 saved in a coffee under the bed. but this took too long a coming... and I got old and tired. And everything went to hell in a hand basket. Do you know that I NEVER made a better wage than my father in the whole of my life?? And he was not a rich person.

 

[cats mom]

I am not advocating people not going to college. Far from it. But what I am saying is that the idea that everyone should go to college is just wrong. The cost of college has grown exponentially in that past several years, and nobody says a word about it. It is just accepted.

Agreed. Very much like the idea that everyone who wants to buy a house should be able to. So of course the government must come up with a way to make it happen. Why? Honestly, some people should not be homeowners, period. But instead of accepting that fact, the government has gone to ridiculous lengths to increase the national homeownership rate, and we're all paying for it.

I read an article that profiled a couple who used government programs to buy a $155,000 house. They had a yearly income of ~$35,000 and an out of pocket cost of less than $10.00 (they did have to come up with a few dollars at closing, but only because estimates were off).

Gee, who would have anticipated that had the potential to go bad?

They stopped making payments less than 6 months after the loan funded and 2 years later they were still living in the house and stalling foreclosure with every tactic they could. Why not, they had nothing to lose by gaming the system... well, other than their credit rating.

I think when buying a house, funding retirement, paying for a college education, etc. people need to have some skin in the game. They need to make a significant personal contribution so they feel some responsibility for the outcome. Relying mainly on government funding is nonsense.

I think you could argue that the more the government steps up to pay the tab for a college education, the more leeway it gives the student and family to act less responsibly when it comes to evaluating whether a particular degree really makes sense for that student. After all, who is going to turn down free money? Not to mention that every time the government increases financial aid, it allows colleges to raise their sticker prices even more.

IMO a college degree is not an automatic ticket to a successful career and higher earnings. And unlike the NAR and their powerful lobby would like everyone to believe, homeownership is not an automatic step to financial stability. Nor is everyone entitled to both, especially at tax payer expense.

 

[Muushka]

But that's just it Muush. the FHA and Va mortgages were and are FABULOUS programs. % wise they have helped millions qualify and get great houses. The problem isn't that the programs did not work the probably was they did not evolve and oversight them as they should have been.
Prior to this recession, where ever bank and mortgage lender absolutely lost their minds, FHA backed loans had some of the lowest default rates. 95% of people who got fha mortgages paid them and went onto home owner heaven

Perhaps at one time, the program worked. But it is royally broken now, and there is plenty of blame to spread around as to why it broke. But that is never addressed because it will step on incumbent's and past leaders' toes. Seriously, look up the book Reckless Endangerment, it is an eye opener.

So maybe the answer is to not get rid of the program but find out what the heck went so horribly wrong.

Read above!

That's what I don't see being address. Simply saying "oh if the government would leave us alone" is IMO just as bad as having the government try to fix every thing.

Sorry, I am a Libertarian, in my opinion anytime the gov gets involved in something, it is bound to break.

The problem wasn't "No child left behind". The problem was we implemented a program without getting teachers input into how to make it work without any thought to how school districts work, how different children work. So maybe the answer is some where in the middle. Maybe the answer is for a funneling of funds. let the feds funnel the money to the states & Let the states say this is the plan that works best for our children. who knows, but that's the discussion I'd like to see take place. Not just ok, cut all funding and hope the schools can bake enough cookies to make up the difference.

I'm all for state's rights. And I never said that the schools should not be funded. My point is that there is a system known as our US Department of Education and the NEA that does not have the children learning as their focus. Perhaps if funding was shifted to the states, there would be better control of how funds are spent. And please, if a teacher is not doing their job, FIRE THEM! Have you ever heard of the Rubber Room? Ever watched the documentary Waiting for Superman? Eye openers.

Now I would love to really believe that not all kids need to go to college. I really would, but the reality is far different. So what do we do with the kids who don't go to college? Nowadays some college is needed before you can take a entrance test. You know I'm back in school for baking. Baking of all things, I love it and I'm not trying to make a living at it. The kids in my culinary school all have to take minimun college courses and in order to graduate they have to have at least 30 credits of non culinery course work (math, science, english).

What do we do with all the kids who did go to college and are now unemployed? I need to do more research, but I know that there are many jobs out there that do not require a college degree or education. Plumbers, electricians, mechanics, phlebotomists, home health aids, manufacturing, truck driver, real estate broker off the top of my head.

So I'd like to see a discussion around "if all kids don't need to go to college" what are the probabilities they will escape a life of working poor? If they don't go to college (and I include trade schools in this also) and walk out with a H.S. diploma, do they become the working poor still needing foodstamps and medicare? What's the better investment?

What is the better investment? Good question. I hope that this country will return to producing things rather than importing just about everything. I personally would be willing to pay extra for things manufactured here rather than from China.

Also, the American dream; house, 2 cars, as many kids as you want and all the goodies that everyone else has is something that many do not accept that perhaps they just can't afford.

Not sure what the answer is here, just rambling......

 

[eliza61]

Not sure what the answer is here, just rambling......

Hey I met Geoffry Canada!! Remember I'm from Harlem!! I met him at a Harlem day celebration. Tremendous educator. Unfortunately I didn't get to speak to him long but a very interesting and dedicated man. Don't even get me started on that rubber room stupidity or did you see the stupidity about sending bad teachers around the district so no one gets "stuck" with them!! ***grrr***


Hey, I love rambling with you. You're one of my favorite posters because I know no matter what side I'm one, you never call me a name or get mean.

Too bad we can't get a truck load of dissers to work on the problem, I think we'd do a better job.

Oh well, it's good to be able to vent here. I think we can all agree it's going to be a bumpy ride so we'll have to continue to swap budgeting ideas.

 

[NotUrsula]

First off, careful folks .. the discussion is veering into the political. Mentioning party names is probably not the best avenue to keeping the thread open.

As to this:

So let me ask, 'whats the alternative. Seriously. This is a global market, our kids are already at the bottom of the barrel as far as technology jobs are concerned. My company cannot find American born Phd scientist in 2011. Google, Yahoo and microsoft all are screaming that they have to hire from Asia and SE Asia for most of their technology jobs. Google executives were on 60 minutes last summer lamenting the fact that they cannot find American computer science/computer engineering graduate student.

They are simply not looking in the right places or taking the right tack to find them. These fields are ones in which a BS is enough to get you a decent-paying job, and fellowships are really few and far between.

If tech companies are looking for Ph.D's then they need to get the word out and start offering more undergrad internships, because I can tell you that most folks who are considering trying to get a Ph.D. in the sciences are reading the Chronicle and deciding that it isn't worth it, because academic hiring is completely stagnant right now, and they are worried that they will spend an enormous amount of time and energy only to end up in Adjunct hell.

I work with a large number of postdocs; yes, we have a lot of foreign nationals, but our undergrad summer intern program is full of promising native-born undergrads. An internship where I work is a VERY hot ticket, because it looks good on applications to the very best grad programs -- the ones with fellowships to give. Often they come back here to work as postdocs, but then they usually go to the commercial employers, because they are tired of working long hours for peanuts, and often have student loans to pay off from undergrad.

 

[Muushka]

Hey I met Geoffry Canada!! Remember I'm from Harlem!! I met him at a Harlem day celebration. Tremendous educator. Unfortunately I didn't get to speak to him long but a very interesting and dedicated man. Don't even get me started on that rubber room stupidity or did you see the stupidity about sending bad teachers around the district so no one gets "stuck" with them!! ***grrr***


Hey, I love rambling with you. You're one of my favorite posters because I know no matter what side I'm one, you never call me a name or get mean.

Too bad we can't get a truck load of dissers to work on the problem, I think we'd do a better job.

Oh well, it's good to be able to vent here. I think we can all agree it's going to be a bumpy ride so we'll have to continue to swap budgeting ideas.

Rent Geoffrey's movie! See what I am all hacked off about!!

Yup, you and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum, but still love our Lodge . And no, I will never call you a name!

 

[dazza5931]

hi im from the uk and the news here is that we are going deeper into recession the eurozone is falling apart with greece portugal and ireland wanting massive bailouts and then we hear that spain and italy are next for massive bailouts unless they kerb there spending and as for gas prices they are very high currently £1.32 a litre which is about $2 a litre as well as big name business failing all over the place it all points to a very long recession and also reports that the usa are not doing enough to get there debts in order currently at a very high 14.5 trillion so i dont think it looks very good in the short term i think printing more money is just painting over the cracks we had it too good for to long thers an old saying baton down the hatches its going to be a stormy few years.sorry to be the bearer of bad news but our so called leaders are useless

 

[Colleen27]

So I'd like to see a discussion around "if all kids don't need to go to college" what are the probabilities they will escape a life of working poor? If they don't go to college (and I include trade schools in this also) and walk out with a H.S. diploma, do they become the working poor still needing foodstamps and medicare? What's the better investment?

I think that in general the "get govt out of education" position tends to go hand-in-hand with the "get govt out of charity" position, so lack of investment in education would ideally have no consequence on the welfare end of things.

I think what bothers me most about the whole subject is how easily we accept and even advocate for the idea that a hard day's work has no value of its own, and that it is fine and dandy that some people should work hard every day of their lives and "accept that perhaps they just can't afford" a home or children.

 

[Aisling]

hi im from the uk and the news here is that we are going deeper into recession

My brother and his family live in England and yes, he says times are very hard over there, too.

 

[SaraJayne]

I think that in general the "get govt out of education" position tends to go hand-in-hand with the "get govt out of charity" position, so lack of investment in education would ideally have no consequence on the welfare end of things.

I think what bothers me most about the whole subject is how easily we accept and even advocate for the idea that a hard day's work has no value of its own, and that it is fine and dandy that some people should work hard every day of their lives and "accept that perhaps they just can't afford" a home or children.

I agree with you, Colleen. Many times, "poor" people work just as hard, if not harder, than the "rich".