Incedent at DTD

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

So at what alcohol level should someone be considered "incapacitated"? Should it be the same level as that for DUI? If I am at a bar and having drinks with a woman and she gives all the indications of wanting sex, I should say "no" simply because I know she's had alcohol? Or does it depend on how much alcohol? Two drinks? Three? Four? What if she had drinks before going to the bar that I don't know about? What if she had drinks at the bar that I don't know about? If I've had two drinks, should I refuse sex? Should everyone carry portable breathalyzers around and if things start getting "hot and heavy" they can test each other?

I have no problems with the police investigating this case. I have a problem with people online who were no where near the incident and only know what's been reported saying "It's obvious he raped her!"

I agree that going straight to "It's obvious he raped her" was kinda harsh. It appears that there are many different opinions as to what constitutes rape, so I doubt this thread is gonna end nicely.

 

[FairestOfThemAll37]

So at what alcohol level should someone be considered "incapacitated"? Should it be the same level as that for DUI? If I am at a bar and having drinks with a woman and she gives all the indications of wanting sex, I should say "no" simply because I know she's had alcohol? Or does it depend on how much alcohol? Two drinks? Three? Four? What if she had drinks before going to the bar that I don't know about? What if she had drinks at the bar that I don't know about? If I've had two drinks, should I refuse sex? Should everyone carry portable breathalyzers around and if things start getting "hot and heavy" they can test each other?

I have no problems with the police investigating this case. I have a problem with people online who were no where near the incident and only know what's been reported saying "It's obvious he raped her!"

Well the legal definition (in lay terms) is: Person temporarily or permanently impaired by mental and/or physical deficiency, disability, illness, or by the use of drugs to the extent he or she lacks sufficient understanding to make rational decisions or engage in responsible actions.

So I imagine it would be up to a judge where that line is (as is the case in many potential crimes) that a person is lacking sufficient understanding of the situation to make rational decisions.

Based on the follow-up article there is security footage and testimony from the arrested party that she was unable to walk on her own and had to be lead out of the club. If I were in those shoes, I would not think that person was all to aware of what was going on.

Nobody (at least not me) is saying that every drunken romp is a rape. Two drunk people aware (but intoxicated) that have sex almost never gets reported, let alone prosecuted, as a rape. Nobody is suggesting you carry around a breathalyzer.

When one person has zero clue what is happening to them, doesn't want sex, yet doesn't protest...well, a lot of times that actually is rape.

 

[Shutterbug]

Rape is sex without consent. If a woman is drunk, she can't consent. The man may also be drunk and not able to make good judgements about this, but that's not a defense.

So wait, if they are both equally drunk and both actively participate in the sex, it's still all on man? It's still rape?

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

So wait, if they are both equally drunk and both actively participate in the sex, it's still all on man? It's still rape?

Apparently so.

 

[sam_gordon]

Nobody (at least not me) is saying that every drunken romp is a rape. Two drunk people aware (but intoxicated) that have sex almost never gets reported, let alone prosecuted, as a rape. Nobody is suggesting you carry around a breathalyzer.

Regarding the bolded... that's how I'm reading at least some posts. "If you're drunk, you can't consent, if you can't consent, it's rape." If that's not what posters meant, I apologize, that's the way I read them.

When one person has zero clue what is happening to them, doesn't want sex, yet doesn't protest...well, a lot of times that cruelly is rape.

I agree with you to a certain extent. However, IMO the partner would need to know how incapacitated they are. If that partner is also incapacitated (even to a lesser degree), they may not know and I don't feel they should be prosecuted.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Regarding the bolded... that's how I'm reading at least some posts. "If you're drunk, you can't consent, if you can't consent, it's rape." If that's not what posters meant, I apologize, that's the way I read them.

I agree with you to a certain extent. However, IMO the partner would need to know how incapacitated they are. If that partner is also incapacitated (even to a lesser degree), they may not know and I don't feel they should be prosecuted.

That''s how I'm reading what many are saying also.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

I guess it's safe to say that, unless you are supporting this "rape culture we live in", being incapacitated by alcohol only matters if you are a female. She can't make good decisions and had no idea what she was doing. If you are a male incapacitated by alcohol, you knew what you were doing and took advantage of that female. I don't understand it, but that is how it's being explained.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

From this article:
http://www.nbc-2.com/story/29623765/suspect-in-downtown-disney-rape-arrested#.VbOWtPlVhBc

"The woman said she had no recollection of what happened, and that if any sexual activity took place, it wasn't consensual."

"He confessed to having sex. ... He described her as stumbling with him out to his car, but before they reached the parking lot, she stopped him," records state. "After the 'heat of the moment' subsided, he realized he had made a mistake."

Herrera told investigators he tried to get the woman dressed, but she was "too out of it," so he left her in the bushes, records show."

""Yeah, I had a few drinks, but I think I'm OK to drive," Herrera said, after telling the deputy that he and his friend had just left House of Blues. "I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm good."


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This is what I form my opinion on, especially if the used condom turns out to be his. He obviously wasn't at the same level of inebriation of she was. Not to mention he just left her in the bushes??? Nice guy.

 

[NewRVLady]

So wait, if they are both equally drunk and both actively participate in the sex, it's still all on man? It's still rape?

I agree
She was drunk before she went to DTD- wonder if she drove there

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

I guess it's safe to say that, unless you are supporting this "rape culture we live in", being incapacitated by alcohol only matters if you are a female. She can't make good decisions and had no idea what she was doing. If you are a male incapacitated by alcohol, you knew what you were doing and took advantage of that female. I don't understand it, but that is how it's being explained.

I agree with this sentiment. BUT many here also alluded that she shouldn't have been that drunk, which is true, but it also makes it sound as though they are blaming her BECAUSE she was.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

I agree with this sentiment. BUT many here also alluded that she shouldn't have been that drunk, which is true, but it also makes it sound as though they are blaming her BECAUSE she was.

I'm not talking about this situation specifically as I have no idea if it was rape or not because I don't have any of the facts in front of me. I just think the grey areas around alcohol and how it changes depending on what sex you are is a bit strange. He very well may have raped her and if he did should be charged.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

From this article:
http://www.nbc-2.com/story/29623765/suspect-in-downtown-disney-rape-arrested#.VbOWtPlVhBc

"The woman said she had no recollection of what happened, and that if any sexual activity took place, it wasn't consensual."

"He confessed to having sex. ... He described her as stumbling with him out to his car, but before they reached the parking lot, she stopped him," records state. "After the 'heat of the moment' subsided, he realized he had made a mistake."

Herrera told investigators he tried to get the woman dressed, but she was "too out of it," so he left her in the bushes, records show."

""Yeah, I had a few drinks, but I think I'm OK to drive," Herrera said, after telling the deputy that he and his friend had just left House of Blues. "I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm good."


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This is what I form my opinion on, especially if the used condom turns out to be his. He obviously wasn't at the same level of inebriation of she was. Not to mention he just left her in the bushes??? Nice guy.

If that is what happened in this case then I agree with you that she was raped.

 

[FairestOfThemAll37]

I guess it's safe to say that, unless you are supporting this "rape culture we live in", being incapacitated by alcohol only matters if you are a female. She can't make good decisions and had no idea what she was doing. If you are a male incapacitated by alcohol, you knew what you were doing and took advantage of that female. I don't understand it, but that is how it's being explained.

That's not really what rape culture is, regardless-

Right or wrong the laws are written the way they are because 1)in male/female assaults, statistics skew incredibly to the males perpetrating and 2) because of the mechanics of "penetration" which is a requirement in many rape statues.

That said, scenarios like you describe being reported are virtually nil, even fewer of those are prosecuted.

Only about 3% of people prosecuted for rape ever see a prison cell. And that's not because 97% were falsely accused. We have a broken system IMO.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

That's not really what rape culture is, regardless-

Right or wrong the laws are written the way they are because 1)in male/female assaults, statistics skew incredibly to the males perpetrating and 2) because of the mechanics of "penetration" which is a requirement in many rape statues.

That said, scenarios like you describe being reported are virtually nil, even fewer of those are prosecuted.

Only about 3% of people prosecuted for rape ever see a prison cell. And that's not because 97% were falsely accused. We have a broken system IMO.

We have a very broken system. I completely agree with you there.

 

[sam_gordon]

From this article:
http://www.nbc-2.com/story/29623765/suspect-in-downtown-disney-rape-arrested#.VbOWtPlVhBc

"The woman said she had no recollection of what happened, and that if any sexual activity took place, it wasn't consensual."

"He confessed to having sex. ... He described her as stumbling with him out to his car, but before they reached the parking lot, she stopped him," records state. "After the 'heat of the moment' subsided, he realized he had made a mistake."

Herrera told investigators he tried to get the woman dressed, but she was "too out of it," so he left her in the bushes, records show."

""Yeah, I had a few drinks, but I think I'm OK to drive," Herrera said, after telling the deputy that he and his friend had just left House of Blues. "I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm good."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


This is what I form my opinion on, especially if the used condom turns out to be his. He obviously wasn't at the same level of inebriation of she was. Not to mention he just left her in the bushes??? Nice guy.

Yes, I'm giving the benefit of doubt to the guy. I think in this case it is very possible he thought he had consent. Even if before the woman went to the bar or the next day says "there's no way I'd give consent". Since she doesn't remember what happened, short of actual evidence (eyewitness accounts, security video, etc), I would have a hard time convicting him.

Granted, leaving her in the bushes was not the right thing to do, but I don't feel that act should result in sexual assault charges.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

Yes, I'm giving the benefit of doubt to the guy. I think in this case it is very possible he thought he had consent. Even if before the woman went to the bar or the next day says "there's no way I'd give consent". Since she doesn't remember what happened, short of actual evidence (eyewitness accounts, security video, etc), I would have a hard time convicting him.

Granted, leaving her in the bushes was not the right thing to do, but I don't feel that act should result in sexual assault charges.

Well... Your opinion I suppose.

 

[Ambear]

Yes, I'm giving the benefit of doubt to the guy. I think in this case it is very possible he thought he had consent.

Here's a great article about what consent is. It's actually not as difficult as some on this thread are making it appear.

https://www.uhs.uga.edu/consent/

And I'm going to highlight this bullet point in response to the quoted post:

"Consent is never implied and cannot be assumed, even in the context of a relationship. Just because you are in a relationship does not mean that you have permission to have sex with your partner"

Anyone blamed of rape can use the "Well I thought she/he wanted it!" excuse. Does this mean it's now more difficult to pick up booty cause you actually have to ask and confirm if they want it? Boohoo.

And yes, obviously if a woman gets a man drunk/drugged and has sex with him it is rape. If she blackmails him and has sex with him, it's rape. If she makes him feel like a ***** because men should always want sex and then has sex with him when he didn't really want it, it's rape. Unfortunately men are still raised in a culture that says being dominated, especially by women, is the most shameful thing and so they don't report it.

Feminism actually helps to fix that. Feminism is for ALL genders.

 

[missbrooke06]

Yes, I'm giving the benefit of doubt to the guy. I think in this case it is very possible he thought he had consent. Even if before the woman went to the bar or the next day says "there's no way I'd give consent". Since she doesn't remember what happened, short of actual evidence (eyewitness accounts, security video, etc), I would have a hard time convicting him.

Granted, leaving her in the bushes was not the right thing to do, but I don't feel that act should result in sexual assault charges.

Really? Because it sounds like he had sex with someone that was unconscious - considering he was unable to get her redressed.

 

[sam_gordon]

Really? Because it sounds like he had sex with someone that was unconscious - considering he was unable to get her redressed.

And we know when she passed out by.... ?

 

[livie1205]

They did enough investigation to arrest him for this, he is now out on bail. I am sure the police know a little more then the rest of us to charge him. Again, if there was that much question they would investigate longer and charge him or not after the outcome of that investigation. They had enough to charge him most likely based on his own words during their interview.