I need some advice, serious problem (update 05/05/09)

[LIFERBABE]

I do have to say that I also agree with many points that kdzgon has brought up.

While I want to be supportive of anyone that feels wronged on the DIS, I believe rentals should remain private. It really is not fair to anyone to air all this in the court of public opinion. Especially considering the circumstances.

In fairness, I would like to suggest that if a renter contacts Jim regarding someone they are renting from, then Jim should notify that person that their name was checked and by whom.

Personally I dont want to deal with anyone that is checking my name on the Dis in this manner. Lots of red flags for me. Im OK with checking the tax info or public data, but not with Disers, unless I provide them as a reference.

The person renting normally has the Disname and the real name so this should not be too hard to reciprocate and would really even out what is now a lopsided offer that provides little assurance.

 

[robinb]

After getting a heads-up by PM, I just re-checked the public records and he apparently only has one account left. He paid off his mortgage on one contract, and still owns that one.

But there is a lis pendens filed against the other two DVC accounts which says the finance company has filed foreclosure actions against those accounts. I didn't find the foreclosure action itself, but the lis pendens was a very recent recording so the foreclosure action may just not have been recorded yet.

Well, that explains a lot.

 

[squidmo]

In fairness, I would like to suggest that if a renter contacts Jim regarding someone they are renting from, then Jim should notify that person that their name was checked and by whom.

The only problem there is that then the renter has to supply some sort of contact info for the owner they are renting from, which is far more private information than their name. Personally, I think that if you are renting points through the DIS boards, you are already a person who is willing to share at least their first and last name with others on these boards. I would imagine that most renters get several inquiries that progress to the "full name" stage of negotiations for each actual contracted rental that they end up booking.

 

[Deb & Bill]

The only problem there is that then the renter has to supply some sort of contact info for the owner they are renting from, which is far more private information than their name. Personally, I think that if you are renting points through the DIS boards, you are already a person who is willing to share at least their first and last name with others on these boards. I would imagine that most renters get several inquiries that progress to the "full name" stage of negotiations for each actual contracted rental that they end up booking.

I'd bet there are people posting points for rent on the R/T Board who have little or no action on the DIS other than responding to posts on the R/T Board or posting their own on the R/T Board. Getting your vacation from someone on the DIS is no guarantee about their willingness to share their first/last name with others.

And for Jim. What happens if someone asks you if Joe Doe is the name of the spurious owner, you say no and they still get stuck in a bad rental? What happens if they decide to come after you because you pretty much told them their owner was good to go? Not to group all non-members into a single group, there are a few non-members out there that seem to the a major PITA to any owner.

 

[kdzgon]

The only problem there is that then the renter has to supply some sort of contact info for the owner they are renting from, which is far more private information than their name. Personally, I think that if you are renting points through the DIS boards, you are already a person who is willing to share at least their first and last name with others on these boards. I would imagine that most renters get several inquiries that progress to the "full name" stage of negotiations for each actual contracted rental that they end up booking.

Well, I'm with Liferbabe. I don't want to be renting to someone who chooses to share my info in this way, and I sure would appreciate a heads up from any DIS member (including but not limited to Jim) that received such an inquiry. All the DIS member would need to contact me is my DIS name. I provide my legal name, home info and plenty of contact info incl my cell phone, and will provide references upon request. My info is verifiable - what additional level of assurance is reached by contacting a virtual stranger on a public message board? This is in no means a problem with Jim, as I am well aware of how much he has done on behalf of a number of renters. However, in every case of which I am aware, a search of public records would (or should) have raised red flags for the renters involved.

BTW, Jim - I have less problem with a rating system of some sort. In that situation, I am well aware of the potential should I choose to rent through the DIS boards. Unless an owner happens to come across one of the "renter trouble" threads, many owners would have no clue their info may be shared with an unrelated party.

 

[JimMIA]

And for Jim. What happens if someone asks you if Joe Doe is the name of the spurious owner, you say no and they still get stuck in a bad rental? What happens if they decide to come after you because you pretty much told them their owner was good to go?

I never tell anyone an owner is "good to go." I tell them the owner either is, or is not, one of the people who ripped off some folks in 2006, or the man who is the subject of this thread.

...what additional level of assurance is reached by contacting a virtual stranger on a public message board?

The assurance that the virtual stranger knows the true names, addresses, and a great deal more about certain bad actors...and the person they are inquiring about is NOT one of those three people. Nothing more, nothing less. Many folks find that helpful.

BTW, Jim - I have less problem with a rating system of some sort.

Me too, but opinions like that are irrelevent. The DIS is not going to create a rating system. Period.

I can think of all sorts of "perfect world" ideas, but we don't live in a perfect world. The DIS has looked at all of these issues very thoughtfully, and they've decided not to go that route...primarily because of liability. We can all sit here on our free discussion board and pontificate about what we think they should do, but they have to make real decisions in a real world. And they've made the right decision.

 

[JimMIA]

Personally, I think that if you are renting points through the DIS boards, you are already a person who is willing to share at least their first and last name with others on these boards.

LIFERBABE's point is quite different from that. Their objection is that their name (and the fact that they're renting points) is being shared with someone who is not a party to the transaction. It's a valid point.

If I receive an inquiry from someone who includes the owner's DIS screen name, and they tell me the owner wants to be notified, I could copy the owner with my response to them. It would be pretty boring reading, and I'm not sure what good it would do, but I'm fine with that.

But I think the best way to handle those concerns is for the owner to simply tell the renter that they do not want their personal information shared with anyone not involved in the transaction. That's a legitimate request for an owner to make if they are worried about privacy issues, IMHO.

 

[LIFERBABE]

Jim, please take this as no disrespect, but I agree, the Dis has spoken and they have chosen not to get involved in rental matters.

As I assure anyone, I am not out to rip anyone off and never have, but IT IS WHAT IT IS!

Renting is a risky transaction for both parties. Either take it or leave it.

Your offer to check names usurps the Dis policy by offering an avenue on the DIS for renters to check names. Renters pay a greatly reduced rate because they are knowingly and willingly shouldering the risk involved.

A renter should enter into a rental agreement with their eyes wide open. They need to understand the "what ifs" and work with their party.

They should know and understand the risks. It's like putting your money on a crap table, except the the house doesnt have the edge, the person renting does. If all bets were as safe as renting, I'd be rich.

I agree with Deb and Bill, there are some non members that are very difficult to work with. They want all the DVC benefits but dont want to carry the burden of risk that the owners are willing to carry. These false assurances only give them avenues to shift more of the risk to the owners who are already doing more than their share.

To me it's about fairness. If you want assurances, call CRO, not Jim. If you want to bear some risk to save money on your vacation, rent points.

I am sorry the OP is going thru this and wish her all the best.

 

[JimMIA]

Your offer to check names usurps the Dis policy

No it doesn't. The relevent DIS policies are as follows:

1. They are not going to get involved in a feedback system, in any form.
2. It's against DIS posting policies to post anyone's real names in public posts.

I'm not violating anything except your personal opinions about your own privacy. Your concerns are perfectly legitimate, as I said above, and I will gladly respect your point of view by not responding to any inquiries about you, or copying you with my response...whichever you prefer. I'll happily do that for anyone.

But don't claim I'm violating DIS policies, because nothing could be farther from the truth. The DIS mods are well aware of my actions, and I'll leave it at that.

Renters pay a greatly reduced rate because they are knowingly and willingly shouldering the risk involved.

A renter should enter into a rental agreement with their eyes wide open. They need to understand the "what ifs" and work with their party.

They should know and understand the risks.

The problem that keeps me busy is NOT that the renters don't understand the risk. The inquiries I get come from people who DO understand the risks and are taking prudent precautions.

Renters are not supposed to check their brains at the door. They are supposed to ask questions. They are supposed to ask for contracts. The DIS itself strongly urges them to do their due diligence.

It's like putting your money on a crap table, except the the house doesnt have the edge, the person renting does.

Wow...I hope not!

Hopefully, renting is like any other business transaction with someone you don't know. You check them out. My actions are intended to facilitate safe rentals, not make them more difficult.

As part of doing that, I sometimes correspond with honest owners who are absolutely horrified that anyone would question their integrity. That's not uncommon; I hear it all the time when I'm trying to help them with a problem on their end.

Renters don't question integrity. They trust, but they verify. They're sensible people. If I were renting, I would much rather have a renter who goes to some effort to understand the sytem and make themselves comfortable with the owner they are renting from. To me, it doesn't make the renter a pariah -- it makes them a smart consumer.

...there are some non members that are very difficult to work with. They want all the DVC benefits but dont want to carry the burden of risk that the owners are willing to carry.

Some customers in any business are difficult to deal with, but honestly I haven't corresponded with a single prospective renter with that kind of attitude. My solution if you do run into one of those is simple: Don't like it? Don't do business with them.

Dealing with customer expectations and reservations is part of any business transaction. It goes with the territory. If you want to do business with folks, you have to meet them on their terms.

There are certainly people out there who should not rent, and I've told a few of them that. As a matter of fact, I told a good friend that this week.

There are also owners out there who should not rent. If I were a prospective renter and I ran into someone offering to do business only on the condition that I not check them out, I'd wonder what they had to hide.

These false assurances only give them avenues to shift more of the risk to the owners who are already doing more than their share.

First of all, there is absolutely nothing false about what I am telling prospective renters who ask me questions.

Prospective renters ask me if an owner is one of the three people who have proven problematic and I tell them yes or no. This is not rocket science; it's really pretty simple.

I've had several hundred of these inquiries over the last year, and I have never had anyone so stupid as to assume that me saying "no" to that question is carte blanche that the person is a wonderful owner to rent from. Some of you who rent (or don't like renting) must be dealing with morons, but the people I'm talking to are quite level-headed.

Nor do my efforts shift a molecule of risk to anyone -- renter or owner. How does me telling someone you're not one of the bad people put any risk on you? That's just silly.

If an owner thinks they are doing too much work, or are shouldering too much risk, it seems to me the solution is very simple. Don't rent. That's exactly why I don't rent -- it's more trouble than it's worth to me. (Plus we use all our points! )

I can tell you that prospective renters find my efforts helpful. Probably 99% of them really like the owner they are talking to and just want to take that one final prudent step. I don't think I've ever had a PM from someone who felt shaky about the person they were renting from. The prospective renters I talk to have read the FAQ and other posts on the R/T board and they're just doing the sensible thing.

I also think it makes the DIS a safer place to rent from than other forums...which is the whole point.

 

[Deb & Bill]

....I also think it makes the DIS a safer place to rent from than other forums...which is the whole point.

Unfortunately, to me, it just makes the DIS a commercial renting site, which we all know DVC does not like.

 

[LIFERBABE]

Jim, that is my opinion and I apologize if I offended you.

I have no points til 2010 so I will let you all resume to your regularly scheduled thread.
So my name will definitely not be one to check and in this climate, I'd rather give my points away than rent them on the DIS.

All this is very lopsided and disturbing and is evidence of why the DIS chooses to not get involved.

I never said that renters should not ask for contracts or perform due diligence that can be accomplished without involving you or the DIS in the process.

 

[sajetto]

Liferbabe, I completely agree with every word you've said and I have felt that way since the first "scam" thread came about. It is most definitely disturbing to see to the positions that some take upon themselves that violates the privacy of other owners. I ended up giving renting a shot again in these past few weeks, and found that I was much better off posting on another site. I still had to provide references, proof of ownership, paypal, etc...BUT I felt more piece of mind knowing that my full name wouldn't be handed off to a complete stranger who has no reason to be involved in a transaction that is supposed to be between TWO people. If someone wishes to have peace of mind they need to turn to Disney, not a stranger. Common sense would tell you that.

 

[TisBit]

I find it very interesting a lot of renters are concerned that their name is being shared to a third non-involved party, many elluding to identity theft issues, etc.....yet these same people are willing to post on the rental boards, share their name, address, email, phone numbers with absolute strangers who are "renting" from them.

There are simple ways to combat this sharing of information, list it as a part of the contract, this is easy and very straight forward. Second is not to get involved in rentals with strangers that don't know you and your background.

Making Jim the point of attack on this is some what absurd. People are very concerned that they might get ripped off from a known fraud (or unscrupulous) on the Dis and want to protect themselves.....Jim who has first hand information on these transactions is willing to help renters out.

Guess my point is, if you are willing to share your information with a potential renter, you need to be prepared for them to use that information to check you out. Including past posts made by you, possibly contacting past renters, contacting people that have had problems before and seeing if you had been their renter, or even with Jim, who has information on most of the problems that have occured here on the DIS and has helped people out who have found themselves in trouble in the past.

Put me in the pro Jim camp!

 

[JimMIA]

I think we've all expressed our opinions, and everyone has made their points well. It's time to turn the thread back over to OP, so folks can address HER issue.

If someone wants to start another thread on this topic, that's fine, but we're in danger of hijacking a thread that is far more important than our intramural squabbles.

 

[DVC Mike]

The problem that keeps me busy is NOT that the renters don't understand the risk. The inquiries I get come from people who DO understand the risks and are taking prudent precautions.

Renters are not supposed to check their brains at the door. They are supposed to ask questions. They are supposed to ask for contracts. The DIS itself strongly urges them to do their due diligence.

Hopefully, renting is like any other business transaction with someone you don't know. You check them out. My actions are intended to facilitate safe rentals, not make them more difficult.

Renters don't question integrity. They trust, but they verify. They're sensible people. If I were renting, I would much rather have a renter who goes to some effort to understand the sytem and make themselves comfortable with the owner they are renting from. To me, it doesn't make the renter a pariah -- it makes them a smart consumer.

I agree with Jim that potential renters should perform due diligence before forking over cash to a total stranger.

However, I personally would not take on what Jim has (volunteering to pass names by him). Because of my post on things to consider when renting (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1669863), I sometimes get PM's on this site and others asking about certain owners. I politely reply that I don't want to get involved in individual business transactions, but just reaffirm the general advice that's in the post.

Jim obviously feels differently, and that's OK -- I see nothing wrong with what he's doing. He's just trying to help potential renters avoid an owner who has apparently been involved in some rentals that didn't go very smoothly, to say the least.

 

[CarolAnnC]

No it doesn't. The relevent DIS policies are as follows:

1. They are not going to get involved in a feedback system, in any form.
2. It's against DIS posting policies to post anyone's real names in public posts.

I'm not violating anything except your personal opinions about your own privacy. Your concerns are perfectly legitimate, as I said above, and I will gladly respect your point of view by not responding to any inquiries about you, or copying you with my response...whichever you prefer. I'll happily do that for anyone.

But don't claim I'm violating DIS policies, because nothing could be farther from the truth. The DIS mods are well aware of my actions, and I'll leave it at that.The problem that keeps me busy is NOT that the renters don't understand the risk. The inquiries I get come from people who DO understand the risks and are taking prudent precautions.

Renters are not supposed to check their brains at the door. They are supposed to ask questions. They are supposed to ask for contracts. The DIS itself strongly urges them to do their due diligence. Wow...I hope not!

Hopefully, renting is like any other business transaction with someone you don't know. You check them out. My actions are intended to facilitate safe rentals, not make them more difficult.

As part of doing that, I sometimes correspond with honest owners who are absolutely horrified that anyone would question their integrity. That's not uncommon; I hear it all the time when I'm trying to help them with a problem on their end.

Renters don't question integrity. They trust, but they verify. They're sensible people. If I were renting, I would much rather have a renter who goes to some effort to understand the sytem and make themselves comfortable with the owner they are renting from. To me, it doesn't make the renter a pariah -- it makes them a smart consumer.Some customers in any business are difficult to deal with, but honestly I haven't corresponded with a single prospective renter with that kind of attitude. My solution if you do run into one of those is simple: Don't like it? Don't do business with them.

Dealing with customer expectations and reservations is part of any business transaction. It goes with the territory. If you want to do business with folks, you have to meet them on their terms.

There are certainly people out there who should not rent, and I've told a few of them that. As a matter of fact, I told a good friend that this week.

There are also owners out there who should not rent. If I were a prospective renter and I ran into someone offering to do business only on the condition that I not check them out, I'd wonder what they had to hide. First of all, there is absolutely nothing false about what I am telling prospective renters who ask me questions.

Prospective renters ask me if an owner is one of the three people who have proven problematic and I tell them yes or no. This is not rocket science; it's really pretty simple.

I've had several hundred of these inquiries over the last year, and I have never had anyone so stupid as to assume that me saying "no" to that question is carte blanche that the person is a wonderful owner to rent from. Some of you who rent (or don't like renting) must be dealing with morons, but the people I'm talking to are quite level-headed.

Nor do my efforts shift a molecule of risk to anyone -- renter or owner. How does me telling someone you're not one of the bad people put any risk on you? That's just silly.

If an owner thinks they are doing too much work, or are shouldering too much risk, it seems to me the solution is very simple. Don't rent. That's exactly why I don't rent -- it's more trouble than it's worth to me. (Plus we use all our points! )

I can tell you that prospective renters find my efforts helpful. Probably 99% of them really like the owner they are talking to and just want to take that one final prudent step. I don't think I've ever had a PM from someone who felt shaky about the person they were renting from. The prospective renters I talk to have read the FAQ and other posts on the R/T board and they're just doing the sensible thing.

I also think it makes the DIS a safer place to rent from than other forums...which is the whole point.

Thank you JimMIA for your assistance to the renters and potential renters here on the DIS. I know many who have appreciated your help in the past.

I think anyone posting on the worldwide web has to assume a certain amount of responsibility as far as expecting privacy. If you want to rent your points out, or rent points yourself and use an internet bulletin board to do so, there is a certain lack of control by posting in a public forum.

That being said, as Jim stated we do not allow the posting of any "real" names here on the DIS.

 

[Dean]

I'd say that by not being a moderator and by conducting this offline, I'd feel Jim is fulfilling the technical letter of the current DIS rules. While I guess one could argue the spirt of the rule, I personally feel this is within the spirit of what DIS has communicated as to their intent.

 

[Lovemy3babes]

Furthermore, it's simply an issue of a contingency disagreement. The other party secured the agreed upon rental, the OP paid for it then cancelled that rental. The only issues appear to be whether the renter made reasonable efforts, did they re-rent the reservation or points and were the points banked/borrowed. We really don't know any of those issues and that is essentially the crux of this matter. That's why I said the OP may not have a case. There were hints early in the thread that the renter offered some solutions but that the OP and renter apparently couldn't get together on those.

Nope, this couldn't be farther from the truth. I keep getting strung along by this owner. I've done everything in my power to get this resolved. Everything. The fact is that the owner wouldn't try and reschedule after I gave him many different dates to try, ignored multiple emails and calls, responsed with a voicemail promising a refund after I sent a certified letter and I'm still waiting on said refund. This is NOTHING I haven't "come together" on with this owner. Nothing.

 

[Lovemy3babes]

And Jim, I am so sorry you are getting hammered on. I feel absolutely horrible. I don't even know what to say. You've been nothing but 100% as helpful as you can be.

 

[JimMIA]

And Jim, I am so sorry you are getting hammered on. I feel absolutely horrible. I don't even know what to say. You've been nothing but 100% as helpful as you can be.

I don't feel like I'm being hammered on at all. There are several people who have different points of view, with valid concerns, who are expressing their opinions in a civil way. I don't agree with them, but they have just as much right to express themselves as I do. That's what discussion boards are about.

I've disagreed with just about everyone here at one time or another, and if I can't take someone having a different opinion, I probably shouldn't be here.