I am more disturbed

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by BuckNaked
As you well know, the IX Amendment does not address inalienable rights. Inalienable rights are not only not guaranteed, they are not even mentioned in the Constitution.



"...others..." certainly does not indicate that there are unlimited rights given to the people.

Inalienable rights are not given by the government. They are protected by the government.

 

[ripleysmom]

"I do find it ironic that there was far less push for gays to get married when the marriage penalty was so high."

Actually arminnie if you had visited the Debate Board years ago you would have seen the same push. The reason my post is on the CB at all is because of the DB's demise.

 

[tonyswife]

Originally posted by dmadman43
The ones retained by the people, like it says

Exactly, and I retain the right to form a contract with any consenting adult that I want to.

 

[tonyswife]

Originally posted by dmadman43
It's a legally defined contractual living arrangement between two people of the opposite sex. At least that's what it is as far as the state is concerned. Again, if it were a right, I wouldn't need the endorsement of the state to enter in to marriage. Do I need the endorsement of the state to practice my religion? Do I need the endorsement of the state to speak my mind? Do I need the endorsmement of the state to start printing a newspaper?

This is sucha good point. Any consenting adults should be able to enter a contract. Get the government out of marriage.

BTW, you DO need the endorsement of the state to vote, a right. There are plenty of laws defining how it's done so whether or not we have created laws around an issue does not negate that we have the right to do it. You need the endoresemnt of the state to own a gun too.

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by tonyswife
This is sucha good point. Any consenting adults should be able to enter a contract. Get the government out of marriage.

BTW, you DO need the endorsement of the state to vote, a right. There are plenty of laws defining how it's done so whether or not we have created laws around an issue does not negate that we have the right to do it. You need the endoresemnt of the state to own a gun too.

good point about the voting. But that's to avoid fraud. I really don't see the point with marriage. Again, it's not really a right, IMHO, but we are likely dealing with semantics at this point.

It's only been recently (from an historical perspective) that you've needed a license to own a gun. (And that hasn't really lead to anything all that positive anyway, but that's a different topic entirely)

As for any consenting adults entering a contract, that brings up back to civil unions. I agree. Get the govt out of the marriage business and make them ALL civil unions and leave the institution of marriage to churches. So, if a gay couple finds some church that wants to marry them, fine! You're married. Now go to the courthouse and get your civil union set up. Same with all you heterosexuals.

 

[chadfromdallas]

Originally posted by dmadman43
As for any consenting adults entering a contract, that brings up back to civil unions. I agree. Get the govt out of the marriage business and make them ALL civil unions and leave the institution of marriage to churches. So, if a gay couple finds some church that wants to marry them, fine! You're married. Now go to the courthouse and get your civil union set up. Same with all you heterosexuals.

Anyone want to guess why this hasn't been proposed?

 

[tonyswife]

Originally posted by dmadman43
good point about the voting. But that's to avoid fraud. I really don't see the point with marriage. Again, it's not really a right, IMHO, but we are likely dealing with semantics at this point.

It's only been recently (from an historical perspective) that you've needed a license to own a gun. (And that hasn't really lead to anything all that positive anyway, but that's a different topic entirely)

As for any consenting adults entering a contract, that brings up back to civil unions. I agree. Get the govt out of the marriage business and make them ALL civil unions and leave the institution of marriage to churches. So, if a gay couple finds some church that wants to marry them, fine! You're married. Now go to the courthouse and get your civil union set up. Same with all you heterosexuals.

I agree totally. But, as long as government insists on being involved in the marriage business, we cannot deny the same legal contract to gay people as we "give" to straight people.

 

[tonyswife]

Originally posted by chadfromdallas
Anyone want to guess why this hasn't been proposed?

Neither side is willing to give one single inch. Oh, and the government cannot seem to get out of our bedrooms (gay or straight)

 

[sha_lyn]

Originally posted by tonyswife
Neither side is willing to give one single inch. Oh, and the government cannot seem to get out of our bedrooms (gay or straight)

That reminds me of what I posted on one of my yahoo groups.

This hsould not be seen as an all or nothing issue. If the owrd marriage was removed from these admendments and they were only prohibiting civil unions between consulting adults, I don't think they would have passed. In fact I think if there were admendments voted on that allowed civil unions, they might have passed. It is the word "marrriage" that really seems to be the issue. If we removed that, and take "baby steps" then those who object would not be so steadfast. In society we often need to take baby steps toward progress. It is when there is a "hard shove" forward that "they" refuse to budge and eventually society stops moving forward, or eventually moves backwards.

 

[RickinNYC]

Still not sure why so many heterosexuals feel the need to position me as a tax paying citizen of the United States but that I don't have same RIGHTS. Hmmmmm.... You'll take my money to put your children through school. You'll take my money to help repave your highways. You'll take my money to insure your safety. But God help us all! The very thought of me getting married.

No worries though. I'm a patient man. Whether you like it or not, whether you choose to hide behind the bible or in your homes, the issue of gay marriage and simple, decent, EQUALITY will happen.

And I'll keep up my own wedding plans and laugh my butt off at those that feel that my partner and I are threatening all marriages throughout the world. Maybe I'll wave my wedding band in the air, yell "BOO!" and chortle with glee. Sounds like fun.

And here's a secret to the closed minded. Remember those two good looking, incredibly charming, very outgoing guys that you sat next to in World of Energy? The ones that gave pins to your kids free for nothing (after they asked your permission of course)? The ones that plummeted down Splash Mountain with you? The same ones that bumped along the paths on the Safari? Remember them? They weren't waiting for their wives or children. They weren't escaping from their family for an hour or two. Nope! They were US!

And if you look closely, WE were wearing engagement rings. And I'm pretty darn sure you didn't have any friggin' idea.

But I digress. Just know that there are millions of men and women like us out there who have voted, and will continue to vote, and will continue to use the RIGHTS that we are entitled to in order to insure that one day we will be recognized as equal citizens of the United States.

And we are INCREDIBLY patient.

Gonna happen. Whether-you-like-it-or-NOT. Mwaahahahahahaaaaaaaaa!!!!!

 

[CheshireVal]

Originally posted by dmadman43
Marriage is not a right. If it were, we wouldn't need laws defining it. As for the above comment, to gays really want to be viewed as a minority? A special class? Why is how someone chooses to have sex with someone else a basis for rewriting laws, or granting or taking away civil rights?

Well if marriage isn't a right, I wish someone would come along and tell YOU that you can't marry. I bet your tune would change then and you'd be the first one yelling and screaming about your rights being violated.

And, FYI, the laws are not being re-written. The laws are being WRITTEN to discriminate against gays.

Some people in this thread are so hateful and closed-minded I just can't stand it.

 

[meandtheguys2]

I is a shame that you have to be so patient. It really is a shame that people choose to live in "fear" about an issue such as this!

 

[bubie2.5]

Originally posted by RickinNYC
Still not sure why so many heterosexuals feel the need to position me as a tax paying citizen of the United States but that I don't have same RIGHTS. Hmmmmm.... You'll take my money to put your children through school. You'll take my money to help repave your highways. You'll take my money to insure your safety. But God help us all! The very thought of me getting married.

No worries though. I'm a patient man. Whether you like it or not, whether you choose to hide behind the bible or in your homes, the issue of gay marriage and simple, decent, EQUALITY will happen.

And I'll keep up my own wedding plans and laugh my butt off at those that feel that my partner and I are threatening all marriages throughout the world. Maybe I'll wave my wedding band in the air, yell "BOO!" and chortle with glee. Sounds like fun.

And here's a secret to the closed minded. Remember those two good looking, incredibly charming, very outgoing guys that you sat next to in World of Energy? The ones that gave pins to your kids free for nothing (after they asked your permission of course)? The ones that plummeted down Splash Mountain with you? The same ones that bumped along the paths on the Safari? Remember them? They weren't waiting for their wives or children. They weren't escaping from their family for an hour or two. Nope! They were US!

And if you look closely, WE were wearing engagement rings. And I'm pretty darn sure you didn't have any friggin' idea.

But I digress. Just know that there are millions of men and women like us out there who have voted, and will continue to vote, and will continue to use the RIGHTS that we are entitled to in order to insure that one day we will be recognized as equal citizens of the United States.

And we are INCREDIBLY patient.

Gonna happen. Whether-you-like-it-or-NOT. Mwaahahahahahaaaaaaaaa!!!!!

I wish I had your eloquence. But at least I have your patience.

 

[septbride2002]

Okay I don't think dmadman is trying to be hateful but meerly pointing out that marriage is not a right specifically protected under the Bill of Rights. He has stated over and over that he does not disagree with Civil Unions and wants the Governement completely out of marriage. On this I agree with him. Unfortunantly the states don't see it that way and have even voted down the idea of civil unions.

Tonyswife has already said everything so beautifully in response to some statements that I can't top it. Well done girl!

~Amanda

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by CheshireVal
Well if marriage isn't a right, I wish someone would come along and tell YOU that you can't marry. I bet your tune would change then and you'd be the first one yelling and screaming about your rights being violated.

And, FYI, the laws are not being re-written. The laws are being WRITTEN to discriminate against gays.

Some people in this thread are so hateful and closed-minded I just can't stand it.

Sorry, but the laws do not specifically target gays. The law applies to everyone. Just as it was ok before for anyone to marry anyone of the opposite sex whether or not they were physically attracted to them or not.

However, it does appear that some laws are being written to deny same-sex couples the same financial/medical decision rights that heterosexual couples have. IMO, that's wrong. Very wrong.

Speaking for myself, I don't hate gays and I would consider myself far from close-minded just because of my feelings on this particular issue.

 

[CheshireVal]

Well the constitutional amendment to "define marriage as between a man and a woman" is, yes, for everyone. But only gays are affected, obviously.

I was not implying that anyone in particular was being hateful-- just getting a little fed up with some of the viewpoints expressed here.

However, I, too, believe that one day this will all be a non-issue, and gays will have the same rights as everyone else.

 

[Jenn Lynn]

I am with Miss Jasmine on this one. I was brought up in a religious household and taught that homosexuality is wrong. Some posters on here are saying to leave out the religion (my beliefs) and separate them from the issue. But I could not separate them any more than you (general) could separate growing up with a gay sibling or parent. It's what we know, it's what we believe, it makes up who we are.

Still I stuggle with this issue and the abortion issue daily. Voting FOR these issues is condoing it. What do I then tell my child, who I am raising a Christian? That what I have voted for goes against the beliefs that I am teaching her? Doesn't that make me a fraud?

On the other hand, I understand the need for gay couples to have their rights protected. That is the side of me that has started to show as I have gotten older. The side that sees the whole person and not just my beliefs clouding that person.

Where do I draw the line?

I think we will see civil unions in my lifetime (I'm only 27). I think it will be my generation and the one after me that passes the laws (once more of us start voting.) It is coming whether we (in general) like it or not.

 

[RickinNYC]

Originally posted by Elwood Blues
However, it does appear that some laws are being written to deny same-sex couples the same financial/medical decision rights that heterosexual couples have. IMO, that's wrong. Very wrong.

This reminds me of quite a few years ago. My partner, Joe, is an epileptic but he doesn't suffer from grand mal seizures. He typically has petit mal. Nevertheless, he does, from time to time, have grand mal. Thankfully only twice in the 14 years we've been together.

One day, I got a call at my office from Joe's boss. He had just had a massive seizure and was headed to the emergency room at St. Vincent's. I grabbed a cab, rushed to the hospital to meet him. When I arrived, I went to the nurse's station, and although panicked, I calmly and VERY politely asked where his bed was located. (Dad and older bro are docs so I treat medical staff with nothing but respect... usually).

The nurse asked if I was a relative and I explained that I was his partner. She snidely stated that emergency room visits were for family ONLY. She wouldn't hear of it and wouldn't let me go in. I appealed to her sense of humanity, I was so frustrated, I was on the verge of a nuclear meltdown. She simply crossed her arms and said "no" with a smug, very insincere "customer service" smile. You know that look.

So I headed to the doors of the emergency room which prompted her to yell out to me, "You can't do that! Family only!" Over and over. I spun back at her and admittedly, I snarled and yelled back, "STOP ME!" and I shoved my way in.

I could hear her yelling for security while I stormed through the emergency room where I found my dear Joe, my absolute best friend, my partner for life, the man I hold most dear in all the world. He was in a daze, very sleepy, he tried to smile but ended up with tears in his eyes. He was so, so, so scared that it broke my heart. I just held his hand, ran a hand through his hair and kept quitely repeating, "You're ok, you're ok". I'm not sure if I was reassuring myself or him.

A security guard came over. A little guy, a security guard about 50-60 years old. He said, "Excuse me sir..." And I didn't turn around. I just ignored him while I held Joe's shaking hand. When he tapped me on the shoulder, I finally turned around. He simply smiled and quietly said, "Visiting hours are almost over. You can stay about half an hour and then you'll have to leave. But they start again at 5:00 (or something). You can come back then. You won't have any trouble coming in this time." To which he smiled again and walked away.

I got his message loud and clear. Perhaps he was gay. Perhaps not. Doesn't matter. He was just a kind older gentleman who saw the fear, the worry, the sadness in both Joe and I. But he also saw the very evident love and devotion we had for each other. He saw and knew that I was Joe's family.

I never told Joe what happened and I never will.

If we were married, I would never have had to go through that.

Where's were our rights then?

 

[sha_lyn]

OK you've done it to me again... tears are flowing

I just don't understand why so many refuse to see that rights are being violated. Partners are being denied so many rights that spouses are freely given. Legal arrangements are ignored or overturned in favor of blood relative. Things that would never be overturned if the person being challenged was a spouse.

 

[SnackyStacky]

Originally posted by Jenn Lynn
I am with Miss Jasmine on this one. I was brought up in a religious household and taught that homosexuality is wrong. Some posters on here are saying to leave out the religion (my beliefs) and separate them from the issue. But I could not separate them any more than you (general) could separate growing up with a gay sibling or parent. It's what we know, it's what we believe, it makes up who we are.

And there is NOTHING wrong with that.

Still I stuggle with this issue and the abortion issue daily. Voting FOR these issues is condoing it. What do I then tell my child, who I am raising a Christian? That what I have voted for goes against the beliefs that I am teaching her? Doesn't that make me a fraud?

You tell your daughter that even though you believe that it is wrong, it doesn't mean that EVERYBODY has to believe that. You tell her that just as nobody has the right to make HER stop believing in God, nobody has the right to say that two people who are in love cannot be civilly united.

On the other hand, I understand the need for gay couples to have their rights protected. That is the side of me that has started to show as I have gotten older. The side that sees the whole person and not just my beliefs clouding that person.

Where do I draw the line?

Nobody is asking you to draw the line. You need to seperate the issue. By voting for gay rights, nobody is saying that you have to approve of, believe in, or condone homosexuality. By voting for gay rights, you are voting that nobody can take away a gay person's rights. MANY people don't agree with your christian beliefs. But they certainly don't want to take away your right to HAVE those beliefs.