I am more disturbed

[RickinNYC]

Originally posted by Jenn Lynn
But I could not separate them any more than you (general) could separate growing up with a gay sibling or parent. It's what we know, it's what we believe, it makes up who we are.

Jenn Lynn, I was raised a devout Catholic, by heterosexual parents, with heterosexual brothers, in a Republican household, on a Naval base. I can understand your conflicting feelings because believe me, I had them myself. In fact, my hatred at the very idea that I was gay drove me to attempt something pretty horrible. And it was my personal belief in God and in Heaven that saved me from finishing what I had started.

As long as hold onto your beliefs but treat fellow men and women with respect and dignity and allow everyone to live their lives free from fear of prejudice, then your belief system remains intact.

And if all else fails, remember the Golden Rule.

 

[meandtheguys2]

Amen.

 

[danacara]

I'll echo that, Amen.

 

[septbride2002]

Rick keep on posting buddy! The more that people can actually associate a face, a name, a story the more likely we are to see civil unions or gay marriages. That is what so many people I think don't see - these are people! They are you friends, neighbors, family, Disney Lovers and when you hear what they have to go through for things heterosexual people take for granted only then will we learn what equality really is!

~Amanda

 

[Jenn Lynn]

Originally posted by SnackyStacky
And there is NOTHING wrong with that.



You tell your daughter that even though you believe that it is wrong, it doesn't mean that EVERYBODY has to believe that. You tell her that just as nobody has the right to make HER stop believing in God, nobody has the right to say that two people who are in love cannot be civilly united.



Nobody is asking you to draw the line. You need to seperate the issue. By voting for gay rights, nobody is saying that you have to approve of, believe in, or condone homosexuality. By voting for gay rights, you are voting that nobody can take away a gay person's rights. MANY people don't agree with your christian beliefs. But they certainly don't want to take away your right to HAVE those beliefs.

Well, I see a difference between taking away and giving. Right now gay couples do not have civil union rights to take away. IF they already had those rights it would be something that we (general) would have to live with. I would NEVER vote to take rights already given away. That's how I see that.

You say to separate the issue, but it is not that easy (for me at least). Given that gay people do not have rights already, I have to look to my personal beliefs, religious or otherwise, to make my decision. From the religious view homosexuality is wrong. Homosexuals as a couple is wrong. Therefore they do no get the civil union rights because they should not be a couple in the first place.

From the "other" view, I cannot find it in myself to believe that gay people choose to be gay. I just cannot fathom it. Who would choose that in this society? Believing this almost rules out the above religious argument for myself. But there is still that pull toward the religious view. (SIGH)

IF my state had a civil union amendment on the ballot equal to traditional married rights I probably would vote for it OR not vote at all.

 

[SnackyStacky]

Originally posted by Jenn Lynn
Well, I see a difference between taking away and giving. Right now gay couples do not have civil union rights to take away. IF they already had those rights it would be something that we (general) would have to live with. I would NEVER vote to take rights already given away. That's how I see that.[

I can concede to a lot of things. I can concede that some people have problems with homosexuality. It doesn't mean I agree with that belief - but that's their belief, and they are entitled to it. But who decided that the rights that you and I share do not extend to gay people? I cannot concede that. Simply because there's no law on the books to state that gay people have the same rights as you and I doesn't make it so. Your discourse really makes me think that you don't believe that gay people are even people.

You say to separate the issue, but it is not that easy (for me at least). Given that gay people do not have rights already, I have to look to my personal beliefs, religious or otherwise, to make my decision. From the religious view homosexuality is wrong. Homosexuals as a couple is wrong. Therefore they do no get the civil union rights because they should not be a couple in the first place.

That is the belief of whatever religion you believe in. And what you're saying is that because you believe that, EVERYBODY has to. That's not right. This country was founded on the principle that this exact thing should not happen.

From the "other" view, I cannot find it in myself to believe that gay people choose to be gay. I just cannot fathom it. Who would choose that in this society? Believing this almost rules out the above religious argument for myself. But there is still that pull toward the religious view. (SIGH)

It goes back to the simplicity of seperating the issue. I'm going to try saying it even more simply.

Voting for gay rights - marriage or otherwise - is NOT a vote saying: "Yes! I believe that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality!!"

Voting for gay rights - marriage or otherwise - IS a vote saying: "I may find homosexuality to be a sin, but that does not mean that gay people should be denied the same rights I have!"

Voltaire said: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." And that's what I believe. No matter how despicable the things that the KKK, or Skinheads, or Nazis may say - it is their right in this country that they should be able to say them. Because it does not infringe on anybody's rights.

Gay people being civilly united, or married by a justice of the peace, or a minister of a church that allows for gay marriage does not infringe upon your rights, or my own. So gay people should be extended the same rights that you and I are. If your church will not marry a gay couple - that's fine. But it is simply flat out wrong to say that NOBODY is allowed to marry a gay couple infringes not only the rights of the gay community, but any organization that WANTS to marry gay couples.

IF my state had a civil union amendment on the ballot equal to traditional married rights I probably would vote for it OR not vote at all.

I completely agree that government should define a civil union, and a church should define marriage. But that seperation does not currently exist. And until it does, I will fight so that people like Rick can be at the side of their partner in the hospital.

 

[Jenn Lynn]

"Your discourse really makes me think that you don't believe that gay people are even people."

And your inability to see my POV makes me realize that this argument is pointless.

Have a nice day.

 

[Jenn Lynn]

Originally posted by RickinNYC
Jenn Lynn, I was raised a devout Catholic, by heterosexual parents, with heterosexual brothers, in a Republican household, on a Naval base. I can understand your conflicting feelings because believe me, I had them myself. In fact, my hatred at the very idea that I was gay drove me to attempt something pretty horrible. And it was my personal belief in God and in Heaven that saved me from finishing what I had started.

As long as hold onto your beliefs but treat fellow men and women with respect and dignity and allow everyone to live their lives free from fear of prejudice, then your belief system remains intact.

And if all else fails, remember the Golden Rule.

Thank you for your kind words and thoughts. I appreciate them.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Jenn Lynn, it's nice to know others are struggling with the same thing.

Rick, your posts always move me.

 

[septbride2002]

Jenn Lynn - with the upmost respect. I understand that you are torn on the issues. I believe many Americans are in the same position you are in. It is definately an example of things not always being black and white/ good and evil.

I look at it this way - I'm sure you teach your daughter about the love of God. And that God loves all of his children even when we make mistakes. And although you do not condone a homosexuals behaviour you also could not vote against denying them rights as a US citizen because of it. Because it will be God that has the final say when we go to be with him.

~Amanda

 

[SnackyStacky]

Originally posted by Jenn Lynn
"Your discourse really makes me think that you don't believe that gay people are even people."

And your inability to see my POV makes me realize that this argument is pointless.

Have a nice day.

I never said I didn't see your point of view.

I see your point of view, and I find it incredible.

Well, I see a difference between taking away and giving. Right now gay couples do not have civil union rights to take away. IF they already had those rights it would be something that we (general) would have to live with. I would NEVER vote to take rights already given away. That's how I see that.

I take this to mean that because the laws on the books don't SPECIFICALLY mention gay people that they are excluded. I didn't know that the rights outlined were specifically for caucasians, heterosexuals, blacks, asians, and hispanics. I thought they were extended to all citizens of the Unites States.

Perhaps I misinterpreted your statements. If I did I apologize.

I don't believe this argument is pointless. But obviously you do. And I will go no further to encroach upon your right to feel that way.