I am beginning to lose hope...

[goofyernmost]

Agree with your premise, but it's really sad that a company known for it's sterling customer service has turned their backs on their guests in pursuit of the almighty buck! I also wonder how many guests will return once the supply is replenished?

Unfortunately, when it comes to first time guests, it probably won't affect anything at all. However, some of us multi-time, long term guests (42 trips in 31 years) it might be causing enough disillusion to give us the incentive to find something else to obsess about. Time will tell, I guess!

 

[Cormoran]

Unfortunately, when it comes to first time guests, it probably won't affect anything at all. However, some of us multi-time, long term guests (42 trips in 31 years) it might be causing enough disillusion to give us the incentive to find something else to obsess about. Time will tell, I guess!

I just wish Disney would wake up to what they're destroying. But at least we were lucky enough to experience Disney when it was spectacular. Regardless of what happens, I have great memories.

 

[Silock]

Unless you can show me why Disney is better off giving any one person 5 FPs and 4 other guests none, you have no case to argue that FP- was a better system than FP+.

This isn't necessarily the case. It might be if FastPasses ALWAYS ran out, but they didn't. When there's spare capacity, then it's more that the others guests just DIDN'T get them, rather than COULDN'T. Two different things.

Now, when could it be better to give one person multiple FPs instead of one FP to multiple people? Having multiple FPs is FAR more likely to keep someone in the park for longer. If you give me FPs starting an hour after opening and give them to me in ANY park in 2 hour increments until the parks close, I'm not going anywhere but on Disney property, spending money on food at the very least. Now, what happens when you give me 3 FPs in a 2 hour span for one park? If they're in the afternoon, I'll show up late, skipping breakfast in the park, and probably skipping lunch there, too. I'll do my FPs and MAYBE stick around to eat dinner in the parks.

So if you keep a family of 4 there all day, buying 12 meals, going to multiple gift shops, and probably buying a few snacks here and there (if you require more than 3 meals a day, as I do), you're probably going to be much better off than having 2 other families of 4 there for one meal. You're still probably not breaking even with 3 families of 4. Of course, this doesn't factor in the cost of tickets, but getting into that math is far above my skills and access to information (as in how many extra employees do you need for an X increase in attendance, are you running more buses/ferries/monorails and what the cost of that is, etc.). It gets even murkier if everyone is a FL resident and doesn't pay much for tickets. Or if they're AP holders. I don't know where that break point is and I don't have the skills to figure it out. But it's certainly *possible* when you realize that the parks are not at full capacity all day, every day.

 

[Silock]

Since when has a WDW vacation ever been one that could be done without heavy planning? One of the tenets of having a successful vacation at WDW has always been- plan, plan, and then plan more. For veterans, it does get to a point where you know the ropes and it's easier, but for a newbie- if you just walk up to the gates, buy a ticket and walk in with no previous planning- your trip is probably not going to be great and you'll probably end up not liking WDW very much. This has been true since day 1.

This is true. But I suspect when people say "planning," they really mean "flexibility."

Before FP+, we would roughly figure out which park we would go to on what day, and maybe make an ADR there. But if the park was too crowded that day, it was easy to hop to another park and do something else. This is FAR less likely to happen now, which is where the complaints of the trips being too regimented is coming from now.

 

[kaetra]

FP+ = Everyone gets a trophy.
FP- = Wait your turn outside the queue, feel free to shop and spend $ while you wait

One system costs millions to implement and maintain. The other had already paid for itself years ago. When people running the show think like this, Logic is simply not involved.

FP+ didn't bring more people to the parks, new attractions and an improving economy did.

Don't bother hoping that FP+ will get "fixed". It's just not happening. It's best to lower your expectations, you'll be happier.

 

[JimmyV]

This is true. But I suspect when people say "planning," they really mean "flexibility."

Before FP+, we would roughly figure out which park we would go to on what day, and maybe make an ADR there. But if the park was too crowded that day, it was easy to hop to another park and do something else. This is FAR less likely to happen now, which is where the complaints of the trips being too regimented is coming from now.

This is often overlooked. Under FP+, if you get to your selected park and decide that your powers of prediction weren't so great and that 60 days out you picked a park you shouldn't have, you're stuck. If it's really crowded, you might be stuck in really long lines except for your 3 FP rides. And if your FPs are not until mid day or the afternoon, you have no incentive to change parks. You could cancel all your FPs and change parks, but you'd likely be stuck with scraps at the park you move to.

Another possibility is that you find out that you simply picked bad FPs. When you arrive at your selected park you discover that one or more of the rides you chose don't have very long lines and that you would have been better off picking different rides for your FPs. You can always try to change on the fly, but again, your options might be limited. With FP-, in the first scenario you could have hopped out of the crowded park and still gotten FPs at your second park. In the second scenario you could have ridden SB at the rides with modest waits and gotten FPs for the more crowded rides. FP+ places a huge premium on being able to guess/predict crowd levels for parks and line sizes for attractions well in advance. Not hard to predict waits for the 2 big attractions at Epcot. Or 7DMT or A&E. But for many other rides, it's a crap shoot. Is it better to guess if you need a FP at HM or PoTC 60 days in advance or to be in the park and observe the two attractions before selecting?

 

[mouselovr]

This whole thread makes me sad! I am getting ready to go back to WDW for the first time since the FP+ and im really dreading the change. My kids are not near as excited about another trip as they have been in the past because of the changes. It is just sad that as one previous poster said, it has become all about the $$ not the customer service.

 

[Hokie2000]

That time may have not been scheduled but it was used unless you go without eating. I could probably use a bunch fewer meals myself. But, if you do stop to eat you are going to use the time up either way. Scheduled or not. Remember I said I was going to be there for 3 days and I only scheduled 2 ADR's. That left a lot of unscheduled time on my hands. Again though I was one that never did that before, so it was an added number of ADR's not less.

It's interesting that you added ADRs, I actually did the same thing on our last trip. I usually don't make many ADRs either, maybe 1 or 2 on a week long trip. My additional preplanned ADRs were

 

[PeasandCarrots]

We went last June and used FP+ for the first time. We definitely didn't love it and really missed the old FP, but I reassured myself that our (mine, and everyone else who has expressed their dissatisfaction) voices will be heard by the powers that be at Disney and that they would improve on FP+ by the time we went on our next trip. Specifically, I honestly believed that they would have fixed the problem with park-hopping, as well as added the feature to the app so you could reserve more times from your iPhone after using the first 3. And I absolutely thought the tiering system would be so unpopular that it would be done away with.

And now, here I am with my FP+ reservation date only a week away and nothing has changed or been improved upon since our last trip. This is very discouraging. I'm not saying that we are going to have an awful trip…I am actually really excited about it. But I really dislike all these constraints and restrictions. I wish FP+ was revised to allow more flexibility.

Does anyone think there's ever going to be more changes made to FP+, or you think we are stuck with it this way forever? Sigh

I agree with your suggestions but honestly I don't know how many if any we'll ever see because Disney is still making money hand over fist and we all keep going even though we don't like the new system as much as the old. Doesn't give them much incentive to change.

 

[Hokie2000]

Shoot, hit the button before I was done!

I was saying that my additional preplanned ADRs were more a result of getting a TIW card, but we ended up adding several on the fly in the MDE app. before I would have just eaten quick service, now I can check availability on the app and make reservations shortly into the future. This feature combined w/ the TIW discounts have increased and will continue to increase our number of ADRs.

 

[hoosll]

I believe that the 3 FP+ design is also used by Disney to extend stays. Most of the people who have really positive experiences and write about it are guests who stay 6+ days. Under the legacy (FP-) system and park hoppers you could have a really great vacation riding you favorite rides multiple times in 4 days ... hmm for a company that is building hotel rooms at a faster clip than attractions, they WANT people to stay and eat longer; they want people to be at WDW and not trickling over to visit U/IA or Fishworld.

Yes, Disney wants happy first-time visitors. If they are unhappy then they light up the water cooler or the chat boards with negative comments driving away potential visitors.

I think Disney's next test will be to determine how high they can push ticket prices before they see a decline in attendance. With the economy getting better, I expect we will see 2 price increases a year along with the now ubiquitous "free dining with room and ticket purchase" promotions (with attendant huge food prices for those folks NOT on a dining plan - AP and locals beware). We may continue to see ghost rooms where guests never intend to stay on property but can afford the additional cost of an All-Star room to gain 60-day FP+and free dining (sure saves on hotel maids).

It is human nature to try and gain an advantage over others ... survival of the fittest (my thanks to Josh). In the end we all have the choice to spend our vacation $$ somewhere else. I didn't want to become a lab rat while Disney worked out the kinks in its MDE system. Now although I long for a WDW trip, I will sit on the sidelines ... I'm not waiting for Avatar land (I didn't see the movie), not waiting on Disney Springs, not waiting on Cars-land at HS, not waiting on Frozen at Epcot - none of those future developments will tempt me to use the tickets I purchased at 2012 ticket prices.

 

[Cormoran]

I believe that the 3 FP+ design is also used by Disney to extend stays. Most of the people who have really positive experiences and write about it are guests who stay 6+ days. Under the legacy (FP-) system and park hoppers you could have a really great vacation riding you favorite rides multiple times in 4 days ... hmm for a company that is building hotel rooms at a faster clip than attractions, they WANT people to stay and eat longer; they want people to be at WDW and not trickling over to visit U/IA or Fishworld.

Yes, Disney wants happy first-time visitors. If they are unhappy then they light up the water cooler or the chat boards with negative comments driving away potential visitors.

I think Disney's next test will be to determine how high they can push ticket prices before they see a decline in attendance. With the economy getting better, I expect we will see 2 price increases a year along with the now ubiquitous "free dining with room and ticket purchase" promotions (with attendant huge food prices for those folks NOT on a dining plan - AP and locals beware). We may continue to see ghost rooms where guests never intend to stay on property but can afford the additional cost of an All-Star room to gain 60-day FP+and free dining (sure saves on hotel maids).

It is human nature to try and gain an advantage over others ... survival of the fittest (my thanks to Josh). In the end we all have the choice to spend our vacation $$ somewhere else. I didn't want to become a lab rat while Disney worked out the kinks in its MDE system. Now although I long for a WDW trip, I will sit on the sidelines ... I'm not waiting for Avatar land (I didn't see the movie), not waiting on Disney Springs, not waiting on Cars-land at HS, not waiting on Frozen at Epcot - none of those future developments will tempt me to use the tickets I purchased at 2012 ticket prices.

I think you're absolutely correct with your assessments, I'm sorry to say. But I do think they are going to have a harder time convincing guests to remain locked in when Universal is offering new attractions at frequent intervals and SeaWorld has relatively inexpensive tickets. I realize Universal is much smaller than Disney, but their park attendance growth has been remarkable and I don't see it stopping. People are now visiting Orlando because of Universal. I wonder if those guests will be able or willing to pay for day at WDW.

 

[Shaden]

In other words...Rope Drop is the antidote to the limitations of FP+. Yet somehow whenever someone says this, a battle ensues.

Yet when we told people who didn't like legacy FP that RD was the antidote to running out of TSMM FPs, that answer was always inadequate. That's actually one of the more amusing parts of this whole deal.

This is the thing that gets me sooooo much. A good portion of the people who life FP+ say they do because they no longer have to get up and RD things, because they can have their selected 3, and they are cool with that.

Yet, what they tell other people is that you can still get just as much done in the parks, just go to rope drop (and sometimes stay late as well). But we didn't have to do this under Legacy FP. We rarely made rope drop, even if we tried. And yet we were able to pull lots of FPs, yes for headliners, yes for TSMM. But now, now we have to RD if we want a chance at getting the same number of rides done. So how exactly is this a good thing ?

What's crazier, is that its often the same people who say the both things "FP+ is great because we no longer have to RD to get what we want done" "FP+ is awesome, we proved you can get a ton done, we just made sure we were at RD" ...

 

[Brian Noble]

Does anyone think there's ever going to be more changes made to FP+, or you think we are stuck with it this way forever? Sigh

Peering into my crystal ball:

Tiering won't go away at Studios until at least one (and possibly both) of the major rumored Star Wars/Pixar expansions happen---and maybe even then tiers won't go away, but there's a chance that several of the current tier 1 attractions get demoted to tier 2. Tiering is here to stay for the foreseeable future at Epcot. There just isn't enough capacity at the few headliners in these two parks to serve the average day's attendance. It is also possible that tiering will be added to AK when the Pandoraverse opens, depending on how popular the new attractions turn out to be.

Hopping support (reserving the first three across two or more different parks) is possible, but I think unlikely. My recollection of the data is that most people don't hop, so it serves a relatively narrow set of guests. Also, Disney isn't really interested in making it easy for you to see your top priorities in two different parks on the same day. They would much rather have you see those on different days.

Fourth and later FP+ by smart device in addition to kiosk: I suspect this might happen, but it depends on how much usage they are seeing at the kiosks for this purpose now. If the volume is significant, they might move this way to save on staffing costs.

There is also the assumption in the OP's post that so many guests are unhappy with FP+ that Disney is being negatively affected and will eventually have to change. That doesn't appear to be the case. From the prepared remarks in last week's earnings conference call (emphasis added):

For the quarter attendance at our domestic parks was up 7%, with Walt Disney World and Disneyland Resort, each setting an all-time attendance record for any quarter. Per capita spending in our domestic parks was up 4% on higher ticket prices, merchandise, and food and beverage spending. Occupancy on our domestic hotels was up 8 percentage points to 89% and per room spending was up 4%. So far this quarter, domestic resort reservations are pacing up 3% compared to prior year levels, while book rates are up 4%.​

Later in the call they also talk about being happy with guest response to the MM+ intitiative. That could be a bit of spin, but it's generally unwise to out-and-out lie on an earnings call.

Quite a few folks are convinced that, given enough time, eventually Disney will see a downturn in attendance and/or spending due to dissatisfied guests, and we just haven't had enough time for that to happen. But, FP+ is almost at its one-year anniversary of full roll-out---that was right around the end of March 2014, and the 4th-and-beyond capability was added about a month later. Even among the DISboards, the number of people who are *actually* not going back to WDW (as opposed to saying they won't) seems to be small. They may be going less often, but there seem to be plenty of people willing to take their place, given attendance and occupancy numbers.

I suppose it could still happen, we'll have to see. But, from where I sit we are getting close to the end of the window of uncertainty.

 

[jeffbear]

Peering into my crystal ball:


There is also the assumption in the OP's post that so many guests are unhappy with FP+ that Disney is being negatively affected and will eventually have to change. That doesn't appear to be the case. From the prepared remarks in last week's earnings conference call (emphasis added):

For the quarter attendance at our domestic parks was up 7%, with Walt Disney World and Disneyland Resort, each setting an all-time attendance record for any quarter. Per capita spending in our domestic parks was up 4% on higher ticket prices, merchandise, and food and beverage spending. Occupancy on our domestic hotels was up 8 percentage points to 89% and per room spending was up 4%. So far this quarter, domestic resort reservations are pacing up 3% compared to prior year levels, while book rates are up 4%.​

Later in the call they also talk about being happy with guest response to the MM+ intitiative. That could be a bit of spin, but it's generally unwise to out-and-out lie on an earnings call.

Quite a few folks are convinced that, given enough time, eventually Disney will see a downturn in attendance and/or spending due to dissatisfied guests, and we just haven't had enough time for that to happen. But, FP+ is almost at its one-year anniversary of full roll-out---that was right around the end of March 2014, and the 4th-and-beyond capability was added about a month later. Even among the DISboards, the number of people who are *actually* not going back to WDW (as opposed to saying they won't) seems to be small. They may be going less often, but there seem to be plenty of people willing to take their place, given attendance and occupancy numbers.

I suppose it could still happen, we'll have to see. But, from where I sit we are getting close to the end of the window of uncertainty.

Which is exactly what I've been saying for months now. The "uproar" over FP+ just doesn't exist in reality to the degree it does on the boards.

 

[JimmyV]

I believe that the 3 FP+ design is also used by Disney to extend stays.

This isn't even debatable. It is no mystery that this system was put into place after HP opened up. Disney noticed that the typical guest in the Central Florida area stayed for 7-8 days. Do the math. There are 4 Disney Parks, two Universal Parks and one Seaworld Park. This is not to say that everyone visited each park for one day each. Far from it. But Disney noticed that people could absolutely get their fill of Disney in 5 or 6 days leaving them with one, two or maybe three days to explore other attractions. Disney wanted to capture those extra days. So they devised a system that: a) "locks people in", trying to keep them on property; and b) slows down the pace of their Disney days so that it takes 6 or 7 days to do what they used to do in 4 or 5. They want you to relax and enter the park at 10:30 after having a character breakfast in the Poly. They get more money from that breakfast purchase than they do from you buying a cinnamon roll at the MK. And they want you to feel good about the fact that strolling in at 10:30 has not put you at any disadvantage when it comes to riding the headliners. And all of this works. But it cannot be challenged that a family that enters the park at 10:30-11:00 cannot do as much as they did when they entered the park at 8:30-9:00. They need more days. Or they need to be content at the end of a similar number of days with having done less. We can debate the "It works for us" vs. "We hate it" until we are out of breath, ink and bytes. But what cannot be debated is that the system was designed to get you to allocate more days to WDW and fewer (if any) days to SW and US. It would be delusional for anyone to think that Disney created this system to speed you up, to make you more efficient and to streamline your time at WDW. Do you really think they would roll out a system that would allow you to do in 4 days that which you used to do in 6?

But now, now we have to RD if we want a chance at getting the same number of rides done.

I've thought about this, and perhaps the single biggest problem with FP+ is the ability to book FP times at park opening. If the first FP slots were not available until the parks had been open for a full hour, I wonder if people would be "forced" to go at RD, and I wonder if the SB lines would bog down as much as they are. Let everyone ride SB for the first hour without getting cut off by people with 9:10 FPs and we might see a different crowd dynamic.

 

[JimmyV]

Which is exactly what I've been saying for months now. The "uproar" over FP+ just doesn't exist in reality to the degree it does on the boards.

And I say the opposite. The angst of people waiting to use kiosks is far greater than is demonstrated on these boards. We all have witnessed that. I can't speak to the angst of people trying to use their home computers in booking FPs, but if you think that the average, non-Dis'er is all rainbows and unicorns as they work through the process, then you're nuts.

 

[Brian Noble]

And I say the opposite. The angst of people waiting to use kiosks is far greater than is demonstrated on these boards. We all have witnessed that. I can't speak to the angst of people trying to use their home computers in booking FPs, but if you think that the average, non-Dis'er is all rainbows and unicorns as they work through the process, then you're nuts.

Let's assume you are right. How long do we have to wait to see it reflected in attendance and guest spending? Two years? Five?

 

[JimmyV]

For the quarter attendance at our domestic parks was up 7%, with Walt Disney World and Disneyland Resort, each setting an all-time attendance record for any quarter. Per capita spending in our domestic parks was up 4% on higher ticket prices, merchandise, and food and beverage spending. Occupancy on our domestic hotels was up 8 percentage points to 89% and per room spending was up 4%. So far this quarter, domestic resort reservations are pacing up 3% compared to prior year levels, while book rates are up 4%.

Let's break this down.
"For the quarter attendance at our domestic parks was up 7%, with Walt Disney World and Disneyland Resort, each setting an all-time attendance record for any quarter."
Disneyland can be used as a "control" since it does not use MDE or FP+. Yet despite the Luddite systems used there, attendance was up just as much as at WDW. So were MDE and FP+ the reasons for the success at WDW? Can't be.

"Per capita spending in our domestic parks was up 4% on higher ticket prices, merchandise, and food and beverage spending."
So Disney raises prices on tickets, food and beverages, and sees a 4% increase in spending. Whoopie! Raise prices 4%. See people spend 4% more. Where does this leave MDE/FP+?

"Occupancy on our domestic hotels was up 8 percentage points* to 89% and per room spending was up 4%."
It is entirely possible for occupancy rates to be up because of the 60 day/30 day dichotomy. Can't tell. But again, the 4% increase in spending is attributable to what? Higher rates?

*Footnote for fuzzylogic. You challenged my reference to the fact that historic occupancy rates were 85% noting that "yesterday" they published them to be 90%. But here is all the proof you need. If occupancy rates increased 8 percentage points, then they were at 81%. The 85% rate that my brother fed me was either too high, was a "round up", or was for his hotel(s) when he worked there. Likely the latter.

 

[ArwenMarie]

What's crazier, is that its often the same people who say the both things "FP+ is great because we no longer have to RD to get what we want done" "FP+ is awesome, we proved you can get a ton done, we just made sure we were at RD" ...

Or its corollary..."I love FP, I can walk in at night with three FPs booked (or two or one depending on the park) and then take advantage of the low crowds from 11pm to 1 am!"