I am beginning to lose hope...

[BugsDaddy]

Uhhh....Given that both Fl and CA have experienced proportional increases I don't agree at all that you are correct. Matter of fact I see it as a failure in that since FL has FP+ and Ca doesn't. If FP+ were a success than they would be up by so much more in FL, and they are not. But as I also said imho it is waaaaayyyyy too early to judge.

So, with the increased competition from Universal Orlando which also had a huge year with the HP additions and the pains of the implementation of an entirely new system, you would consider a proportional increase in attendance as a failure? I don't understand that perspective at all. You have to look at the entire picture. While I agree that the final results have yet to come in, the initial financial indications are certainly positive enough to start the process of expanding FP+ to California.

 

[Cormoran]

You know what... it isn't the lack of legacy fp's that most impacted our lack of enjoyment since we we never big fp- users. Rather it is the change in lines on secondary rides. I responded to your post mainly in reference to the "walk ons" and that is exactly what we missed on our last trip since we found 0 of those and for us that was a completely new experience for secondary rides(and before anyone takes that too literally I mean rides with less than a 5 minute or so wait).

And "back when there was such a thing" was just prior to the implementation of fp+ so Im far from convinced that the "off season" has gone as much as I am about the impact of fp+ on the off season.

This is exactly how we toured. It's not like we frantically ran all over the parks collecting FP-' s so that we could repeatedly ride the same attractions again and again. We love the secondary rides and, yes, we had 5- 10 minute waits, and was true up until FP+ was implemented. It was great. This will be our first trip to Universal and we're really excited. We're staying at Portofino. I just love the lack of planning required!

 

[Cormoran]

Attendance increases at DLR and WDW were the same. So FP+ and MDE can not be cited as the reason for increased attendance. Also, Universal is a lot smaller but their attendance has increased a lot more than WDW. At last report, I believe Universal attendance had increased by 14% and WDW's had increased by 7%. So I think most theme park guests are looking for new attractions, not a ride rationing system.

 

[WillAustin]

As a net result, altho how we queue up is different, we still get just as much done as before.

Glad that works for you. We definitely don't get nearly as much done with the new system.

 

[bumbershoot]

Headliners @ the 3 mountains, pan ( based on waits) and now 7DMT. Prior to FP plus, I never waited more than 5-10 minutes for IASW, POTC,HM prior to those attractions becoming FP plus. Last April all of these attractions had waits longer than 20 minutes. This was my experience.

Wow! I want to tour with you. Early december 2010, not too busy and getting cold, my son had the privilege of waiting an hour in line for small world. He loved the ride at DLR. That hour long line destroyed his love for the ride.

I've never been in a line under 20 min for potc. Longer for HM.

And we go at lighter crowd times. And we've only been visiting WDW since that dec 2010 trip.

 

[kiddisney]

we also don't get as much done as we used to - my son is a cp until august - so we'll continue to go this year - but after that we may skip wdw because the new fp & fp+ prohibits us from enjoying more than one or two rides a day

 

[Mickey&Mouse]

Isn't there data somewhere to see if lines were 5-10 min or less for IASW, POTC, and HM, pre-2014? I don't doubt that Cormoran got in quickly and often... if she says she did then she did in my book. But that is definitely not the typical experience. If someone could quote a wait-time chart from 2 or 3 years ago for these rides that would be cool.

Our last several trips to WDW were mid-Aug 2012, late Aug 2010, early Nov 2008 (Jersey Week) and early Nov 2006 (Jersey Week). The least crowded trip was the one in late August. All the other trips were noticeably more crowded. Wait times for SM, Splash, PP, TSMM, Soarin, TT, and R&RC were extremely long- warranting a FP.

With that being said, rides like IASW & POTC were never more than a 5-10 min wait. In fact most times IASW and POTC were walk-ons. HM was typically under 15 mins.

At Epcot, Figment was always a walk-on. SE and Nemo were usually under 5 mins as well.

At DHS, there were times well into the evening that TOT was only a 10 min wait. While most of our party waited in the Fantasmic line, some of us went to ride TOT a couple of times standby.

As far as repeat rides go, we liked repeating a lot of the secondary rides. With little to no wait this was easily accomplished. Now, with the ride redistribution design of FP+ it sounds like that may be more of a challenge. The secondary ride lines have increased with the implementation of FP+, thereby sucking all the joy out of getting off a ride and jumping right back on- in a short standby line or no line at all.

Right now I’m still just in the planning phase of a FP+ enabled WDW trip, and from a planning standpoint I really dislike it. The extent of planning on our previous trips has been: assigning a park for each day and then having a general idea on which order we’d go in once in the parks. IMO, this new system is much too regimented with ride appointments scheduled before we even enter the park. Trying to figure out our MK days has been a thorn in my side now for the better part of the last month. I guess it will continue to beat up my brain for the next month since my 60 day window isn’t until mid-March. And I suspect that I’ll be second guessing everything up until our trip in May- so an additional two months of lingering doubts.

 

[flicx]

At last report, I believe Universal attendance had increased by 14% and WDW's had increased by 7%. So I think most theme park guests are looking for new attractions, not a ride rationing system.

Rather interesting numbers! In my opinion seems universal is understanding what customers want.

 

[Luckybee]

Wow! I want to tour with you. Early december 2010, not too busy and getting cold, my son had the privilege of waiting an hour in line for small world. He loved the ride at DLR. That hour long line destroyed his love for the ride.

I've never been in a line under 20 min for potc. Longer for HM.

And we go at lighter crowd times. And we've only been visiting WDW since that dec 2010 trip.

I would have been happy to have you tour with us and show you the same thing. Unfortunately now it would be impossible under fp+

Imho if there was a 1 hr wait during a slow time for IASW then the ride was likely broken down. Its my favourite so a must do for us at least under the previous system...now it is a FP+ ride or we don't do it because of the silly waits. In 20+ trips prior to fp+ albeit in slow seasons we never ever ever waited more than 10 minutes except once when there was a breakdown because of something "falling in the water"

 

[JimmyV]

There is nothing in the system that even hints to any advantage to going extra days.

Ahhh. But actually there is. Both sides of this debate agree that riding headliners multiple times has been restricted under the new system. "Haters" shout this at every opportunity. "Lovers" espouse the virtues of spreading out the finite capacity among a wider audience. Either way, if you typically ride TSMM 4 times each vacation, Space Mountain 6 times, RNR 5 times, etc., you are going to need more days to do it. You cannot ride the same number of rides in the same number of days unless you attack the parks in exactly the opposite way that Disney wants you to. See Will Austin's post above. Disney wants you to use your pre-booked FPs by having more character breakfasts and entering the parks at 10:30. You are less stressed and you have spent more money. That is the "beauty" of the system, but it absolutely means that if your goal is to ride 80 rides, you will need more days in the parks to do so. Of course, if you would now be content with 65 rides and 3 leisurely mornings, you could keep your number of days the same.

 

[Silock]

FP+ allows us to not rush to the park or stand in lines.

Well, to be more accurate -- allows you to not stand in lines for 3 rides. Some of which you may not even want to ride, and might be preventing you from riding something you actually do want to ride. Soarin' vs. Test Track, as an example. You can't ride both of them on the same day without either standing in a line or rushing to the park to avoid the line.

 

[Silock]

Which must mean that MDE isn't negatively impacting attendance.

Odd.

That's actually not necessarily true. It could very well be that MDE is negatively affecting attendance, even though attendance is up. Without MDE, it could very well be that attendance would be *even higher.*

 

[JimmyV]

Well, to be more accurate -- allows you to not stand in lines for 3 rides. Some of which you may not even want to ride, and might be preventing you from riding something you actually do want to ride. Soarin' vs. Test Track, as an example. You can't ride both of them on the same day without either standing in a line or rushing to the park to avoid the line.

Epcot is an interesting test case. If you used to ride TT and Soarin' both with FP in the past, then it is hard to figure out a new touring strategy under FP+ that saves net time waiting in line. Add up your FP- waits at TT and Soarin' coupled with SB waits at Ellen, Figment, Nemo and SSE and now compare that to your FP+ waits at Soarin', Nemo and SSE and add in SB waits at TT, Ellen and Figment and you will always do better under FP- unless you now sprint to TT at Rope Drop....which is what FP+ is supposed to deter. This result does not necessarily repeat itself at MK or AK. But it does at DHS.

 

[Silock]

SB waits at Ellen, Figment, Nemo and SSE

Before FP+, we never waited in a line for any of these things. Note: We always go during off-peak. We still don't, but only because we now skip them if there's a wait, or only do SSE 1 time with a FP that you didn't used to need to have.

 

[JimmyV]

Before FP+, we never waited in a line for any of these things. Note: We always go during off-peak. We still don't, but only because we now skip them if there's a wait, or only do SSE 1 time with a FP that you didn't used to need to have.

Makes the math that much easier. Assume that under FP- everything was a walk on except TT and Soarin'. Now assume that FP+ has not negatively impacted this and they are still walk ons (or have no waits due to the use of your "other" FPs.) So the only math is FP-(Soarin') + FP- (TT) vs FP+ (Soarin') + SB (TT). Toss out the constant (FP-/FP+) Soarin' and all you have left is FP- (TT) vs SB (TT).

 

[Silock]

It gets even more biased in favor of either TT or Soarin under FP-, because we could pull at least 2 FPs per day for each. It's a huge minus for us. I realize that people will either say "Good, you don't deserve to ride either more than once per day" or "It works better for us because we go at peak times, anyway."

Oh well. Still doesn't change the fact that it's a big negative for us, and not *just* because of the number of rides we no longer get.

 

[MrInfinity]

Epcot is an interesting test case. If you used to ride TT and Soarin' both with FP in the past, then it is hard to figure out a new touring strategy under FP+ that saves net time waiting in line. Add up your FP- waits at TT and Soarin' coupled with SB waits at Ellen, Figment, Nemo and SSE and now compare that to your FP+ waits at Soarin', Nemo and SSE and add in SB waits at TT, Ellen and Figment and you will always do better under FP- unless you now sprint to TT at Rope Drop....which is what FP+ is supposed to deter. This result does not necessarily repeat itself at MK or AK. But it does at DHS.

When you say "You will always do better under FP-"... do you mean "you" as in Silock or you as in "one in general"?

If you mean Silock in particular, that's fine, but if you mean one in general will always do better, that is not true. We did better under FP+.

Think about it. Let's say in both cases you ride something at rope drop, so that's not relevant. And let's ignore Ellen cuz nobody cares about it.

FP-
Pull one FP, which begets you a return time of around 10-11.
Pull a second FP, which begets you a return time in the afternoon.
Soarin: 20 min via FP-
TT: 20 min via FP-
SSE: 30 min via standby
Nemo: 25 min via standby

You have waited 95 min.

FP+
Schedule all 3 in advance
Soarin: 20 min via FP+
TT: 60 min via standby
SSE: 10 min via FP+
Nemo: 5 min via FP+

You have waited 95 min.

These are ACTUAL wait times from our trips.

Longer? About equal. Until, you consider that:
FP-... you started at 9am, and are done at 4pm. (because your TT return was 3:30) Total 7 hours
FP+... you started at 9am, and are done at 1pm. Total 4 hours.

So you spent more time in one line. You STILL got on everything, faster, because you were not hinging on that useless 3:30pm return time that horribly interrupts the time you'd planned to be in the WS touring Italy, and now have to book it clear back to the WS to hit your return time, then back to where you left off in the WS. This costs you 20 min of transit, and kills the usefulness of FP-. Nobody really wants to pull a ticket that says "go do something else and come back in 4 hours".

That is where the time-savings benefits of FP+ really shine. With FP- you'd get return times that required you to leave, go do something else, and come back. With FP+, we can plan our day and do as much as we did before, without having to return at unplanned times. This more efficient touring leads to overall better experiences. Less walking. Less concrete. Less sweating. People who hate FP+ fail to see this constantly. FP+ let's you plan a day to efficiently and compactly do a day, see what you want to see. For a family that embraces this, it DOES WORK. It saved us a ton of time. It does not facilitate one person riding over and over... it facilitates getting everyone on at least once, at a time that they can pick in advance.

Anyways, your statement that one will always be better off via FP- is not true, because I'm at least one person that was better off with FP+. If you'd said "I" or "Some people" I'd have ignored it as not incorrect. And for every person now unable to pull 5 Fast Passes in a day to TT or Soarin, 5 other guests are able to pull 1.

 

[JimmyV]

It gets even more biased in favor of either TT or Soarin under FP-, because we could pull at least 2 FPs per day for each.

Same with us. We typically got 2 each for TT and Soarin' and one for SSE. Didn't necessarily need the latter. Just hated the SB queue even if it was only 15 minutes. So yes, it is hard to make the case for FP+ at Epcot for anyone other than those who would only arrive late in the day.

 

[JimmyV]

SSE: 30 min via standby

There's the difference. We never waited 30 minutes for this. There was always a time during the day when you could get on in 10 or less, particularly just before closing. And the numbers get really skewed when you add in a third FP for either Soarin' or TT. And if you add a fourth.....

 

[cakebaker]

Attendance increases at DLR and WDW were the same. So FP+ and MDE can not be cited as the reason for increased attendance. Also, Universal is a lot smaller but their attendance has increased a lot more than WDW. At last report, I believe Universal attendance had increased by 14% and WDW's had increased by 7%. So I think most theme park guests are looking for new attractions, not a ride rationing system.

It's really not accurate just to compare numbers to numbers when trying to get a picture of what the public wants. If it were, we could easily say that since Universal saw only 7 million guests while the MK saw 18 million, that 11 million more people like what Disney is doing better. And the numbers get only worse when combining all the parks.

Numbers can be played to suit the game.

And only on the Dis can record attendance and profits be turned into a negative.