I am beginning to lose hope...

[Cormoran]

Again, they do. I even posted a quote earlier in this very thread:
http://www.disboards.com/threads/i-am-beginning-to-lose-hope.3376756/page-9#post-53028796

In case you don't want to click on it, I will include it again (emphasis mine):

For the quarter attendance at our domestic parks was up 7%, with Walt Disney World and Disneyland Resort, each setting an all-time attendance record for any quarter. Per capita spending in our domestic parks was up 4% on higher ticket prices, merchandise, and food and beverage spending. Occupancy on our domestic hotels was up 8 percentage points to 89% and per room spending was up 4%. So far this quarter, domestic resort reservations are pacing up 3% compared to prior year levels, while book rates are up 4%.
​

No, that's not an absolute number, so that's perhaps the hair you are splitting. But, for the purposes of determining whether or not FP+ is having an impact, percentage differences are fine. What's more, this quarter includes the definitive statement that WDW saw more guests this most recent quarter than they ever have.

OK where are the attendence numbers ? I see percent increases but not the number of people who walked throught the turnstyles. Am I missing something?

 

[Brian Noble]

Perhaps you should read what you quoted:

No, that's not an absolute number, so that's perhaps the hair you are splitting. But, for the purposes of determining whether or not FP+ is having an impact, percentage differences are fine. What's more, this quarter includes the definitive statement that WDW saw more guests this most recent quarter than they ever have.
​

So, I guess you are "right."

 

[cakebaker]

I was comparing percentage increase to percentage increase. I guess it really irritates you when percentage increase of attendance is compared, but I'm not twisting anything. You just don't like the actual figures.

LOL- yeah, a record profit and attendance year just really, really irks me. This is very good news for Disney, no matter who or what you compare it to.

 

[Cormoran]

LOL- yeah, a record profit and attendance year just really, really irks me. This is very good news for Disney, no matter who or what you compare it to.

I never said otherwise. All I said is thAt FP+ and MDE cannot be credited with the percent increases, since DLR experienced the same percent attendance growth.

But Universal's percent growth is double the percentage growth of WDW, so I think it's safe to assume that guests are attracted to new attractions.

 

[Brian Noble]

Universal should beat Disney on a percentage basis in Orlando for 2014, thanks to Diagon Alley. They probably will to a lesser extent in 2015 as well, because DA didn't open until early summer. In contrast, WDW didn't open anything of note in 2014 other than 7DMT, and it is cool, but not DA cool. The rest of New Fantasyland was all the way back in 2012!

But the claim that many of the FP+ critics are making is that FP+ will drive people away. Hasn't happened.

I'm thinking 2015 should be a fairly interesting year for comparison purposes, because other than the spring break season for Diagon Alley, none of the Orlando-area parks have anything that's new. Kong isn't supposed to open until 2016, and IIRC the Pandoraverse is '17.

But, WDW is finally spending real money. If you've been in AK lately, you can see they are pouring a lot of money into that park to create more infrastructure, etc.. Not just the Pandoraverse, but an extended Africa, the new Africa-Asia corridor, a greatly expanded hub, and the show around the waterways. MK's hub expansion doesn't seem like much, but it will make a big difference for fireworks and parades. And, it sounds like Studios might get not one but two major expansions and a complete re-working. It took them long enough to react to the huge attendance boost that Potter v1.0 gave Universal, but the sleeping giant has awakened.

It's a great time to be an Orlando theme parks fan. Now if only Sea World can figure out what the heck they are doing.

 

[Cormoran]

Universal should beat Disney on a percentage basis in Orlando for 2014, thanks to Diagon Alley. They probably will to a lesser extent in 2015 as well, because DA didn't open until early summer. In contrast, WDW didn't open anything of note in 2014 other than 7DMT, and it is cool, but not DA cool. The rest of New Fantasyland was all the way back in 2012!

But the claim that many of the FP+ critics are making is that FP+ will drive people away. Hasn't happened.

I'm thinking 2015 should be a fairly interesting year for comparison purposes, because other than the spring break season for Diagon Alley, none of the Orlando-area parks have anything that's new. Kong isn't supposed to open until 2016, and IIRC the Pandoraverse is '17.

But, WDW is finally spending real money. If you've been in AK lately, you can see they are pouring a lot of money into that park to create more infrastructure, etc.. Not just the Pandoraverse, but an extended Africa, the new Africa-Asia corridor, a greatly expanded hub, and the show around the waterways. MK's hub expansion doesn't seem like much, but it will make a big difference for fireworks and parades. And, it sounds like Studios might get not one but two major expansions and a complete re-working. It took them long enough to react to the huge attendance boost that Potter v1.0 gave Universal, but the sleeping giant has awakened.

It's a great time to be an Orlando theme parks fan. Now if only Sea World can figure out what the heck they are doing.

Totally agree with everything you've said. I don't think anyone knows what affect FP+ will have on the parks. I hope Seaworld survives.

 

[cakebaker]

I never said otherwise. All I said is thAt FP+ and MDE cannot be credited with the percent increases, since DLR experienced the same percent attendance growth.

But Universal's percent growth is double the percentage growth of WDW, so I think it's safe to assume that guests are attracted to new attractions.

It's safe to assume people like new attractions because....people like new attractions. We don't need a number to tell us that. But Universal's success has absolutely zero to do with Disney and FP+. You seem to be trying to make that link.

What we can with certainty is this: FP+ has not driven guests away by any number that would matter, much to the chagrin of those who don't like FP+. They may have well lost guests, and who cares. They replaced them and then some.

 

[MrInfinity]

Totally agree with everything you've said. I don't think anyone knows what affect FP+ will have on the parks. I hope Seaworld survives.

Yeah this will be interesting. Back in the day, SeaWorld was always the "other thing to do" on a Disney vacation. There were a few other little ones, like Wet'n'Wild and such, but it was mostly SeaWorld. Nowadays, that other thing to do when people want to supplement a Disney trip with something else, is Universal. Between seeing animals at the AK, aquarium at Epcot and thrill coasters at Universal, a family that goes for a Disney vacation doesn't have much of a void to be filled by SeaWorld. I'm just looking over the SeaWorld offering now. Looks pretty interesting. The manta ride looks cool. Maybe we should give this some thought. $79 to go, plus $19 or $29 for their Quick Pass.

 

[Brian Noble]

Manta is great. I've been on five or six flyers now, and Manta is easily the best one I've been on*---I'd put it in my top four coasters in Orlando, together with Hulk and the two Dragons.

*: However, I've not yet done the one at Six Flags Magic Mountain, which is reportedly even better.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Ok, dumb question interlude:

How long are the FP+ lines? Say I have a FP+ line for Thunder mountain at noon on a Saturday (I do). I assume it's not walk-on, but is it closer to 5-10 min, or half an hour?

It depends on time of year. On our november 2014 trip the only long fp+ line we experienced was sdmt, and we had a 15 min or so wait there. The other fp+ we used had lines very similar to legacy.

 

[flicx]

Universal should beat Disney on a percentage basis in Orlando for 2014, thanks to Diagon Alley. They probably will to a lesser extent in 2015 as well, because DA didn't open until early summer. In contrast, WDW didn't open anything of note in 2014 other than 7DMT, and it is cool, but not DA cool. The rest of New Fantasyland was all the way back in 2012!

But the claim that many of the FP+ critics are making is that FP+ will drive people away. Hasn't happened.

This is what I have been saying all along. Build attractions not new expensive ride allotment systems. Why is universal doing so well? They built new attractions! I also think it is too early in the game for any conclusive fast pass plus decisions, good or bad.

 

[Andtototoo]

Does anyone really care if FP+ drives people away, other than Disney stockholders?

Well, anyway, I don't. I only care about my experience, the bang for my buck. I don't really care if everyone else on the planet loves FP+ or if everyone else loves the way WDW is right this minute. For me, the combination of FP+, poor service on our last trip, and the lack of new attractions (plus the way Frozen has taken over MK) is sufficient to drive me away from WDW and towards some other vacation destination.

And I'm quite sure that no one at Disney gives a hoot.

 

[Candleshoe]

Yeah this will be interesting. Back in the day, SeaWorld was always the "other thing to do" on a Disney vacation.

Not Gatorland?

 

[Cormoran]

Does anyone really care if FP+ drives people away, other than Disney stockholders?

Well, anyway, I don't. I only care about my experience, the bang for my buck. I don't really care if everyone else on the planet loves FP+ or if everyone else loves the way WDW is right this minute. For me, the combination of FP+, poor service on our last trip, and the lack of new attractions (plus the way Frozen has taken over MK) is sufficient to drive me away from WDW and towards some other vacation destination.

And I'm quite sure that no one at Disney gives a hoot.

That's the whole point, can you still feel like you had a good vaction or do you just feel screwed? Some people are willing to overlook the ever increasing prices, the permanent attraction closures, and the homoginized food. It amazes me that poeple defend Disney's price gauging tactics by saying it's a business. Well, no kidding it's a business! But it's a business that built it's reputation on providing top quality entertainment, the stuff guests were willing to pay for because you left the parks satisfied. But over the past several years, the only thing that seems to increase is getting cutstomers to pay more while Disney provides less.

You're right Disney won't care until it's bottom line is affected. I regard that viewwpoint as an indictment on WDW's current policies.

 

[ArwenMarie]

I think one reason why WDW doesn't have to try as hard is because enough of their profit is made up of one-and-dones. They have drilled into everyone's head that every kid deserves to go to WDW at least once during their childhood (not saying I agree with that). And not just in America, but in other countries now too. And maybe not even one-and-dones, but maybe even two or three trips as their family grows up and the individual kids are at the prime age to enjoy it.

As long as that is the case, then they don't have to upgrade the food, they don't have to update shows, they don't have to build rides, they don't have to upgrade the resorts. There is plenty to do for a week's vacation if it's your first time. They can even take stuff away to a certain extent...you can't miss a parade or other entertainment that you never saw.

I think here on a board like this we assume everyone is as obsessed as we are but I think 99.99% of people are fine with an ok experience.

 

[Cormoran]

I think one reason why WDW doesn't have to try as hard is because enough of their profit is made up of one-and-dones. They have drilled into everyone's head that every kid deserves to go to WDW at least once during their childhood (not saying I agree with that). And not just in America, but in other countries now too. And maybe not even one-and-dones, but maybe even two or three trips as their family grows up and the individual kids are at the prime age to enjoy it.

As long as that is the case, then they don't have to upgrade the food, they don't have to update shows, they don't have to build rides, they don't have to upgrade the resorts. There is plenty to do for a week's vacation if it's your first time. They can even take stuff away to a certain extent...you can't miss a parade or other entertainment that you never saw.

I think here on a board like this we assume everyone is as obsessed as we are but I think 99.99% of people are fine with an ok experience.

You're probably right. I'm hoping that Universal's continued introduction of new attractions will light a fire under Disney. I know people keep saying Star Wars is coming, but when? 2025? All I see is attractions closing at DHS. Avatar 2017. I know some people believe that Disney requires additional time because of their devotion to detail, but if this were true how come attractions like Small World and Pirates moved from story board to operational in sucha short period of time?

 

[Tarheel girl 1975]

It's safe to assume people like new attractions because....people like new attractions. We don't need a number to tell us that. But Universal's success has absolutely zero to do with Disney and FP+. You seem to be trying to make that link.

What we can with certainty is this: FP+ has not driven guests away by any number that would matter, much to the chagrin of those who don't like FP+. They may have well lost guests, and who cares. They replaced them and then some.

Conversely, we don't have enough information to show that the increases were caused by FP+ or MM+ either. With as much money as they have spend on it, I would think that they would be eager to show that they have received a return on their investment. I think that if Disney had enough information to show that an increase in profits was caused my FP+/MM+ they would have specifically stated that.

 

[cakebaker]

Conversely, we don't have enough information to show that the increases were caused by FP+ or MM+ either. With as much money as they have spend on it, I would think that they would be eager to show that they have received a return on their investment. I think that if Disney had enough information to show that an increase in profits was caused my FP+/MM+ they would have specifically stated that.

Disney has always been rather tight lipped about their financial information. I doubt they feel a need to show anyone how successful FP+ has been. The only ones with any real need to know are the stockholders and I'm guessing as long as the profits roll in, they don't much care why. I'm not sure there is a way to prove the profits are a result of FP+, outside of surveying guests- and who's going to believe a Disney survey? LOL

At any rate- I don't really care where their profits came from. I care that they're doing well, which means they don't need to cut back and cut corners to adjust for losses. Anything beyond that is of no consequence to me.

 

[Cormoran]

Disney has always been rather tight lipped about their financial information. I doubt they feel a need to show anyone how successful FP+ has been. The only ones with any real need to know are the stockholders and I'm guessing as long as the profits roll in, they don't much care why. I'm not sure there is a way to prove the profits are a result of FP+, outside of surveying guests- and who's going to believe a Disney survey? LOL

At any rate- I don't really care where their profits came from. I care that they're doing well, which means they don't need to cut back and cut corners to adjust for losses. Anything beyond that is of no consequence to me.

At their last report, increased profits were attributed to price increases. If they had been able to cite MDE and FP+ as a source for increased revenue they would've. But seriously, I doubt anyone would've believed them since profits and theme park attendance increased at both WDW and DL at the same rate.
So if Disney doesn't need to cut back or adjust for losses, why have they shut down all of the attractions at DHS and not officially announced any new attractions? Why did they cut back on EMH? Why did they lay off 500 IT workers last week and outsource IT positions to India? Why are they going to increase ticket prices? I guess these decisions are of no consequence to you, but I would imagine the 500 IT workers who were laid off are a little concerned.

 

[Laketravis]

[QUOTE="Cormoran, post: 53052491, member: 543929"So if Disney doesn't need to cut back or adjust for losses, why have they shut down all of the attractions at DHS and not officially announced any new attractions? Why did they cut back on EMH? Why did they lay off 500 IT workers last week and outsource IT positions to India? Why are they going to increase ticket prices?[/QUOTE]

Uh-oh. You think maybe they read the "More for Less" thread?