I am beginning to lose hope...

[cakebaker]

The problem is that DHS, AK and (IMO) Epcot are still half day parks. Spreading out their few attractions doesn't change that - it just gives people more time to stand around and notice how few attractions there are particularly in DHS.

They're half day parks for you. If all you're interested in is riding rides, that's true- but there is so much more to do than just physical rides. We make multiple half day visits to Epcot and AK. HS is the exception, but only for me. Other than TOT and Fantasmic, I could easily never go to HS. Just not my cup of tea and never has been.

I honestly don't understand the idea that if you're not on a ride, there's nothing to do at any of the parks. Parades, fireworks, shows and more shows. If one is really just interested in riding rides and nothing else, I don't why they'd pick WDW in the first place. I'm not saying this to be rude- I really don't get that thinking. Why would you pick WDW for vacation for just riding rides?

 

[cakebaker]

If you scroll up a few pages you will see that even the people on your side of the argument admit that FPs for all other rides were still available, routinely, until md-afternoon. No need to "run to the machines."

I never said my "survey" was any more an honest representation of the facts than yours was. I think they're both equally deceiving- which was my entire point. But there was a need to run the machines if you wanted to get a decent return time in the morning park you visited.

 

[flicx]

If you scroll up a few pages you will see that even the people on your side of the argument admit that FPs for all other rides were still available, routinely, until md-afternoon. No need to "run to the machines."

There was never a need to run to the machines. That makes me laugh every time I hear it. So should we now say that fast pass plus is in effect you now have to run to 7dmt or anna and elsa first thing at rope drop! Same premise!

 

[Planogirl]

They're half day parks for you. If all you're interested in is riding rides, that's true- but there is so much more to do than just physical rides. We make multiple half day visits to Epcot and AK. HS is the exception, but only for me. Other than TOT and Fantasmic, I could easily never go to HS. Just not my cup of tea and never has been.

I honestly don't understand the idea that if you're not on a ride, there's nothing to do at any of the parks. Parades, fireworks, shows and more shows. If one is really just interested in riding rides and nothing else, I don't why they'd pick WDW in the first place. I'm not saying this to be rude- I really don't get that thinking. Why would you pick WDW for vacation for just riding rides?

We've been to all of them many, many times and yes, at least two of them are half day parks to me. We do way more than ride rides but we have no interest in characters. The shows at DHS are mediocre or outdated and I don't see much in the way of shows at Epcot. Yes, you have fireworks at both of these but those don't take that long.

I do think that AK suits us more but we enjoy animal exhibits and the shows there are quite good. Others don't feel the same way so it's also very often categorized as a half day park.

 

[JimmyV]

I never said my "survey" was any more an honest representation of the facts than yours was. I think they're both equally deceiving- which was my entire point. But there was a need to run the machines if you wanted to get a decent return time in the morning park you visited.

Don't be so hard on yourself. I don't think either survey is "deceiving". We have a broad audience here. They can weigh in on whether, if asked in 2012-2013, they would have traded the TSMM mad dash for tiered FPs with a limit of 3 and no hopping. It's a fair debate and not at all deceiving. And I apologize for putting words in his mouth, but even fuzzylogic would agree with me that if FP users were asked this question in 2012, my view would prevail. (Because non FP users wouldn't know what the poll was even asking). The change to FP+ was not done as a result of public outcry. It was done unilaterally by Disney due to its conclusion that a change needed to be made.

And yes, I did notice the edit to your post. We've now moved from "you had to run to get a FP" to "you had to run to get a decent return time". What is a "decent return time"? That is far too subjective to measure. In fact, I'd argue the reverse. If you ran to the machines at 9:00, you got a 9:45 return time. That means that you would be using your FP immediately after riding stand by at rope drop. I hated riding things back-to-back. I like my repeat rides spread out more.

 

[flicx]

It was done unilaterally by Disney due to its conclusion that a change needed to be made.

Exactly Disney did it for themselves, not the customers. Now as any uber corporation is going to do after they implement something like this they are going to tell you how much better it is for you the customer. There is no way they are going to tell you we did this to milk more money out of you while giving you less! Instead they are going to sell, sell, sell and spin into something that is so wonderful the customer should have always had it.

 

[Brian Noble]

I thought I was pretty clear.
People spend on average 8 days in Central Florida when they vacation there. Disney wasn't, in the past, capturing all of those days. The "lock it in" initiative is intended to capture more days for Disney. Success is doing so. Failure is not doing so. So status quo (or loss) in days is failure. A gain of days is success. This is measurable. Just not by us.

We are using two different senses of "failure."

My definition of failure, espoused by many of the most vocal FP+ critics, is that people will be so turned off by FP+ that they will stop going to WDW in noticeable numbers, negatively impacting attendance and revenue. That's measurable in just the quarterly reports---and so far, it definitely hasn't happened.

Your definition of failure is different, but there is a way for the public to measure it. 2015 is a year in which no one in the Orlando market is announcing a big new addition. New Fantasyland, Penguin encounter, and Diagon Alley are all already open. Kong isn't expected to open until 2016, and I think the Pandoraverse isn't until 2017. So, there aren't attraction-driven changes in attendance expected this year. If WDW sees better increases in absolute numbers of 2015 guests vs. 2014 guests than the other Orlando-area parks, then MM+ is a success by your metric. If WDW holds steady or loses ground in absolute terms, it is a failure by your metric. We'll get fairly good estimates of those numbers---not official, but close---in the TEA/AECOM annual report that is published each summer.

Edited to add: that biases a little bit in favor of "failure", because Diagon Alley hasn't had a full year of operation in 2014, so 2015 should still get an attraction-based boost, though the same is true for 7DMT. But, it's fair to say that DA is probably driving more attendance than the Mine Train is.

 

[JimmyV]

We are using two different senses of "failure."

My definition of failure, espoused by many of the most vocal FP+ critics, is that people will be so turned off by FP+ that they will stop going to WDW in noticeable numbers, negatively impacting attendance and revenue. That's measurable in just the quarterly reports---and so far, it definitely hasn't happened.

Your definition of failure is different, but there is a way for the public to measure it. 2015 is a year in which no one in the Orlando market is announcing a big new addition. New Fantasyland, Penguin encounter, and Diagon Alley are all already open. Kong isn't expected to open until 2016, and I think the Pandoraverse isn't until 2017. So, there aren't attraction-driven changes in attendance expected this year. If WDW sees better increases in absolute numbers of 2015 guests vs. 2014 guests than the other Orlando-area parks, then MM+ is a success by your metric. If WDW holds steady or loses ground in absolute terms, it is a failure by your metric. We'll get fairly good estimates of those numbers---not official, but close---in the TEA/AECOM annual report that is published each summer.

Edited to add: that biases a little bit in favor of "failure", because Diagon Alley hasn't had a full year of operation in 2014, so 2015 should still get an attraction-based boost, though the same is true for 7DMT. But, it's fair to say that DA is probably driving more attendance than the Mine Train is.

You're certainly on the right track, and by your own admission, this is going to take some time. Which is why I was puzzled when you challenged that assertion earlier. I think that the average length of pass now purchased is somewhere between 5 and 6 days. Someone can correct that if that is wrong. Success comes when that number jumps to between 6 or 7. I'm not 100% certain that this would automatically be reflected in attendance numbers. I assume that it would be to some degree. It gets complicated. When hotels are booked at 89%, there just isn't much room for attendance growth. In other words, if a family of 4 used to stay 5 days, 6 nights and then checks out--quickly replaced by another family of 4, but in year two that family of 4 stays 6 days, 7 nights, Disney succeeds in getting more of their Central Florida days, but attendance doesn't go up. That hotel room still contributed the same number of guest to the parks in those 6 days in both years. I don't know how we will ever know if the shift in the length of stays occurs unless Disney tells us. Not sure that a bunch of arm chair chat board jockeys can calculate it.

 

[goofyernmost]

Agree. Though I'm not sure why you quoted my post to make that point. It was jeffbear who asserted that the people who are upset had no clue.

Sorry, I didn't do it to correct your thinking, I just commented on the "clueless" theory in general. I probably should have made that clearer. I apologize, I knew you didn't say that directly, you were just responding to it.

 

[mom2rtk]

Disney might want us to spend less times in the parks to control the lines but we'll also spend less time at WDW in general.

That is precisely the risk Disney takes when they give a mouse a cookie.

 

[goofyernmost]

On point one there is far far to much invested for Disney to give this system up, heads would roll with the higher ups after this massive expenditure. On point two Disney is now currently standing on the foundation that was primarily built before 2000, it is still a great park. The current management can pillage it for a long time before things go down hill especially in an upturning economy.

There can't be. If FP+ changes between now and 2019, how would either of us know if those changes were the result of "natural evolution of the system" or "guest dissatisfaction"? Disney would never admit to the latter. For example, suppose they change the booking time from midnight to noon. Who wins the bet? Suppose they add a guaranteed 4th FP. Who wins the bet. Suppose they add phone app availability for extra FPs. Who wins the bet? No one is suggesting that there will ever be a roll back to FP-. But there will be changes if people don't embrace FP+1.0. Remember that Disney's goal is to capture more days of a tourist's 8 days in Central Florida. As outsiders we will never know if they meet that goal. That is the metric of success.

Did I read it wrong or was the bet that Legacy would return during that time. If that is the case, I would take that bet. Legacy is gone and isn't going to be back until the 20K subs are running again in MK.

I don't recall saying it would. Reading comprehension. Go back a bit. Disney is trying to capture more of each tourist's 8 days in the area. Failure is not a decrease in attendance. Failure is spending billions but still only getting 6 of those days. There is no evidence that the 4% growth is a result of capturing the 7th and 8th days.

In my mind, the purpose was not to necessarily increase the number of days as much as it was to keep them onsite for whatever time they were staying. Unless, all of a sudden, Universal or Seaworld becomes so ugly that no one wants to go there, those that are leaving to go there now have planned to do so and will continue to do so because it is something that they want to do. Disney cannot control that but, they can make sure that the days that you committed too are used as planned and not ventured off to someplace else and also to know how many will be in a specific park during that stay. If the basic rule is that people spend 8 days in central Florida it is probably because that is the number of days that they feel they can be safely away from their jobs. Those number of days will not change and the desire to see things other then Disney will not change so the idea is that they don't alter their plans and add more offsite experiences. Not much of a problem anyway since so many people stay onsite via Disney Transportation. It can be arranged to get alternative transportation, but it is a hassle and many people find it not worth it. They may just decide that the next trip they will only go to the other places. There is just so much control that Disney can have over humans.

There is a way to actually get people to stay longer and that is to do two things. First, fill all the parks, besides MK, with interesting and plentiful things to do and second, build another (5th) park and just like that you have added at least one more day to a visit just to spend time in them all.

There was never a need to run to the machines. That makes me laugh every time I hear it. So should we now say that fast pass plus is in effect you now have to run to 7dmt or anna and elsa first thing at rope drop! Same premise!

Only if you are foolish enough to do so. 7DMT is still easier to get then those meet and greets, but, like I said if one is going to make a mad dash to see teenagers in character costumes, well they deserve whatever hassle they create for themselves.

I think "run to the machines" is just a figure of speech meaning that every time you wanted a FP you had to go (or send a runner) to the machines to do so. That was an actual need, it wasn't theoretical. Sitting at home pushing buttons on your computer is a whole lot easier then how getting them was with legacy.

Speaking of legacy FP, for anyone that thinks that it will come back because a few veteran Disney fans are upset, they might want to realize how many people complained about not being able to get one at all with legacy, yet it stayed and stayed and stayed. Everyone has focused on the one small aspect of the new system and that is the FP+ part of it. Because a few people have decided that it isn't working, so therefore they will change it, have to ask themselves... "Isn't working for whom?" I think from what I have seen the entire system, minus a few bugs that will work out eventually, it is working exactly the way Disney planned it too. It is indeed a system for Disney's benefit, but, what they did include as an offering to the guests, is workable and before long will be accepted by everyone or they will stay home. I don't see that happening. It will never go back to Legacy. There were to many problems for them, they don't want it. I'd bet if they could turn back time they never would have instituted that pain in the rear at all.

 

[JimmyV]

1. In my mind, the purpose was not to necessarily increase the number of days as much as it was to keep them onsite for whatever time they were staying.

2. Unless, all of a sudden, Universal or Seaworld becomes so ugly that no one wants to go there,

As to #1, I'll confess that I fail to see the distinction. Disney is not trying to get people to stay more days. You correctly pointed out that the total number of days for vacation is influenced by outside factors such as work or school. What Disney wants to do is make sure that at least 7 of your days are spent in its parks. So I am not sure how increasing the number of days at WDW differs from keeping you on site.

As to #2, the past year has resulted in a widely held perception that SW is so ugly that no one wants to go there. That is an exaggeration of course. But they are suffering and there may be no way out of that hole.

 

[Tarheel girl 1975]

I wonder...did the physical act of going to pull a FP make the wait more tolerable? In other words - it requires an action on your part and a game-day decision, so you feel like you're doing more? (I'm using "you" as a general term). With both FP-/+ there is a window to wait for, and plan around, however with FP+ this window has been decided well ahead of time, resulting in the feeling of waiting around for windows to open up?

I don't feel that way, but a lot of people seem to feel like they're waiting around, which you would have to do previously anyway. I know that there's been an uptick in SB for other attractions, but it doesn't seem like it's been severe enough to cause people to feel like they can't do anything but wait around for their FP times.

Personally, I am a planner, but I feel more locked in because some FP+ attracts are so difficult to book. I know that if we don't make that 7DMT FP, we won't get another one. Also, after years of using legacy FP I had a good idea of which rides would run out of FP first and which wouldn't. Now there is uncertainty about which if any FP will be available after I use my first 3.

They're half day parks for you. If all you're interested in is riding rides, that's true- but there is so much more to do than just physical rides. We make multiple half day visits to Epcot and AK. HS is the exception, but only for me. Other than TOT and Fantasmic, I could easily never go to HS. Just not my cup of tea and never has been.

I honestly don't understand the idea that if you're not on a ride, there's nothing to do at any of the parks. Parades, fireworks, shows and more shows. If one is really just interested in riding rides and nothing else, I don't why they'd pick WDW in the first place. I'm not saying this to be rude- I really don't get that thinking. Why would you pick WDW for vacation for just riding rides?

But most of the shows never change. Overall, I don't think they hold a lot of interest for repeat visitors.

 

[goofyernmost]

As to #1, I'll confess that I fail to see the distinction.

Probably didn't word it correctly. I don't see where this system alters the amount of time spent at Disney in any way. If you want to go there for 6 days then you will probably still go for 6 days. There is nothing in the system that even hints to any advantage to going extra days. However, if you are going to reserve a room for 6 days then they want to be staying on site and not wondering off spending your money in other places. That said, I really don't think that longer stays are even a serious consideration for MM+. There still isn't enough to see to justify longer stays unless it is for a first timer. But, then they don't really know what they will need. What it does do though is tell Disney were and how many people will be in any specific park on any given day. I can see where that is a hugely beneficial tool for Disney planning, of staffing, food and crowd control.

 

[cakebaker]

Personally, I am a planner, but I feel more locked in because some FP+ attracts are so difficult to book. I know that if we dont make that 7DMT FP we won't get another one. Also, after years of using legacy FP I had a good idea of which rides would run out of FP first and which wouldn't. Now there is uncertainty about which if any FP will be available after I use my first 3.



But most of the shows never change. Overall, I don't think they hold a lot of interest for repeat visitors.

I don't know that's true at all. We've been to WDW many, many times and there are some shows we will never miss. I think sometimes people make the mistake of if it doesn't apply to them it must not apply to very many people. I don't know if I'm the norm or you are, but I just don't believe repeat guests don't go back and see shows over and over again. I see it on these boards all the time.

I think there's a set of guests who are the type who like to ride rides above and beyond anything else. They aren't particularly into the magic and pixie dust- a much more detached set of visitors. This is the group I think least satisfied with fp+ because after the rides, there's not much else for them. I'm not saying there's a thing wrong with it, just the way it is.

It's probably why we kept coming back under legacy- we did and still do a lot more than just ride rides. Our trips aren't a disaster if we miss a particular ride-our trips don't hinge on the number of times we ride anything as to whether they're successful or not. Rides are fun, they're important, but they're only a part of the Disney experience. None of my great memories of WDW are of any ride- other than my grandson's first coaster ride.

 

[Tarheel girl 1975]

I don't know that's true at all. We've been to WDW many, many times and there are some shows we will never miss. I think sometimes people make the mistake of if it doesn't apply to them it must not apply to very many people. I don't know if I'm the norm or you are, but I just don't believe repeat guests don't go back and see shows over and over again. I see it on these boards all the time.

I think there's a set of guests who are the type who like to ride rides above and beyond anything else. They aren't particularly into the magic and pixie dust- a much more detached set of visitors. This is the group I think least satisfied with fp+ because after the rides, there's not much else for them. I'm not saying there's a thing wrong with it, just the way it is.

It's probably why we kept coming back under legacy- we did and still do a lot more than just ride rides. Our trips aren't a disaster if we miss a particular ride-our trips don't hinge on the number of times we ride anything as to whether they're successful or not. Rides are fun, they're important, but they're only a part of the Disney experience. None of my great memories of WDW are of any ride- other than my grandson's first coaster ride.

Oddly enough, the first time that I went to DHS was in 1991. I think back then the studios only had two rides and a bunch of shows and I loved it. But by now, I've seen all the shows. Most of them just don't have repeat value for me. In addition, they have shuttered so much at DHS. I actually do want to see the Beauty in the Beast show again before it's gone but we always end up skipping it because we have nothing to do until the next show rolls around. And my kids have no desire to see an Indiana Jones stunt show. If it wasn't for TSMM, my kids would easily skip that park. I admit that I'm more likely to repeat shows at Epcot or AK, but even those are every other or every few trips, not each year.

 

[Cormoran]

I honestly don't understand the idea that if you're not on a ride, there's nothing to do at any of the parks. Parades, fireworks, shows and more shows. If one is really just interested in riding rides and nothing else, I don't why they'd pick WDW in the first place. I'm not saying this to be rude- I really don't get that thinking. Why would you pick WDW for vacation for just riding rides?

Because the WDW and DLR attractions are some of the best themed rides in the world. We love the secondary attractions almost as much as the headliners. I can go to shows, see fireworks and watch parades in my own city. What I can't do is ride well-themed attractions.

 

[Csaks]

Here's what I don't get and never will. Ever since the implementation of fp+, a recurring complaint I read is that it requires too much planning and it kills spontaneity.

Since when has a WDW vacation ever been one that could be done without heavy planning? One of the tenets of having a successful vacation at WDW has always been- plan, plan, and then plan more. For veterans, it does get to a point where you know the ropes and it's easier, but for a newbie- if you just walk up to the gates, buy a ticket and walk in with no previous planning- your trip is probably not going to be great and you'll probably end up not liking WDW very much. This has been true since day 1.

We've had to plan adr's in advance for a long time. Reservations- especially if you're staying onsite, have to be made pretty far in advance. Special ticket events- OMG, best get those bought the second they become available. SWW fan? Good heavens, they start planning their days the day the current one ends plotting strategies and what if's. I'm already seeing posts about MVMCP and the F&W festival! WDW is extremely popular. If you want to go and enjoy it to it's fullest, you better plan. Nothing new here.

So the idea that somehow, because now you get the opportunity to sync your ride options with all these other activities you planned ahead for, the spontaneity is gone, always puzzles me.

I fully understand the frustration of those who knew legacy fp inside and out- who loved to re-ride certain rides many times a day. We've been known to do it ourselves a few times. It was a fun thing to do and they want it back. But other than those rare times when the park isn't crowded and you get to ride, get off and ride again...it's gone and it's not coming back. You can still visit WDW with no planning at all and your trip will probably be just as successful as it would've been had you done that under legacy fp, because with no planning you wouldn't have known what that was or how to use it either.

And that's my rant for the day. Thanks, I feel better now.

It does kill spontaneity. I'm not a newbie but the only planning we did was checking the best day to go to which ever park. You show up, grab a fastpass if it was within a reasonable time. Check out the near-by lesser attractions while waiting or even in the case of RRC and ToT wait in one line, then ride the other right after. Now rides that I have never encountered long waits have them. I love my Pirates but I'm not waiting 45 to 60 minutes for it. You shouldn't have to plan within an inch of your life to have a good time. I get some live for the commando be at TSM at 9am, over to ST for 9:30 etc, tried it in 2004 and needed a vacation after my vacation. Add ADR's and I'm more scheduled than I am at work, plus needing my phone was another bummer. I hate the thing and loved my past trips of locking it in the safe and checking it at night.

Is it just me or did they put Fastpass on everything? Maybe thats why it doesn't work for us. Figment and Living with the Land, Really??? They seem to be creating lines where none existed before.

I'm glad it has worked for some but it hasn't seemed to for us. We had more fun at Universal this trip then we did at Disney, never in my life did I think those words would come out of my mouth. But the fact we could just wonder around and do whatever we felt like in that moment instead of watching a clock made all the difference. We use to try and figure out how to get back to the World as soon as possible after every trip, neither of us has brought up the subject yet and it has been three months. I think if we go back we will go with the QS dining plan instead of TS. That will knock off one time and place to be on the itinerary. If anything a trip to Disneyland would be more likely than one to the World again.

 

[Cormoran]

It does kill spontaneity. I'm not a newbie but the only planning we did was checking the best day to go to which ever park. You show up, grab a fastpass if it was within a reasonable time. Check out the near-by lesser attractions while waiting or even in the case of RRC and ToT wait in one line, then ride the other right after. Now rides that I have never encountered long waits have them. I love my Pirates but I'm not waiting 45 to 60 minutes for it. You shouldn't have to plan within an inch of your life to have a good time. I get some live for the commando be at TSM at 9am, over to ST for 9:30 etc, tried it in 2004 and needed a vacation after my vacation. Add ADR's and I'm more scheduled than I am at work, plus needing my phone was another bummer. I hate the thing and loved my past trips of locking it in the safe and checking it at night.

Is it just me or did they put Fastpass on everything? Maybe thats why it doesn't work for us. Figment and Living with the Land, Really??? They seem to be creating lines where none existed before.

I'm glad it has worked for some but it hasn't seemed to for us. We had more fun at Universal this trip then we did at Disney, never in my life did I think those words would come out of my mouth. But the fact we could just wonder around and do whatever we felt like in that moment instead of watching a clock made all the difference. We use to try and figure out how to get back to the World as soon as possible after every trip, neither of us has brought up the subject yet and it has been three months. I think if we go back we will go with the QS dining plan instead of TS. That will knock off one time and place to be on the itinerary. If anything a trip to Disneyland would be more likely than one to the World again.

Yes, I agree they did put FP+ on a lot of rides that never had a wait, I miss a 5 -10 minute wait for Living with the Land or Small World. I think you would really enjoy DLR because it still has the spontaneous element that now seems lacking from WDW. If you do decide to visit, take my advice and get park hoppers, because it's a 5 minute walk between the parks. We walk back and forth throughout the day. The one thing you won't like is the city of Anaheim encroaching on the parks. But this can be good too. I think the food at DLR is better than WDW because it's so easy to walk to a non-Disney eatery.

 

[wisblue]

, I miss a 5 -10 minute wait for Living with the Land or Small World.

I continue to be amused that there are people who have convinced themselves that there are rides that always had 5-10 minute waits before FP+ that always have waits of 45-60 minutes now.

I just looked at the current posted wait times at WDW. It is 1:45 PM EST on a Sunday that TP lists as crowd level 6 and easywdw lists as crowd level 5. So, we are at early afternoon, when wait times tend to be reaching their peaks, on an average day.

The posted wait times for some of the attractions mentioned in the last few posts on this thread:

Pirates 25
IASW 20
Living With The Land 10
Figment 5

Are these wait times longer than they used to be at the same time of the day on an average day? Maybe. Are they so long that they would have a major impact on someone's ability to enjoy their day at WDW? I guess that's a matter of someone's personal preference.

ETA:

For comparison purposes, I went to Touring Plans and looked at their information about posted wait times for Sunday, February 10, 2013, which would correspond to today (Sunday before President's Day weekend). TP reported that day as being a crowd level 7.

According that information, these were the posted wait times for the same 4 attractions around 1:30-2:00 PM:

Pirates 30
IASW 35
Living With The Land 10
Figment 5

In other words, the wait times today for those attractions are pretty much the same as they were on the same corresponding day at the same time 2 years ago, before FP+ was in place. Now, maybe TP has overestimated the crowd level for today, and it will turn out that today is actually lower than a crowd level 6. But, the broader point remains. Wait times for some attractions are undeniably longer on average than they used to be. But, the differences are not as great or as constant as some people would have us believe.