I am beginning to lose hope...

[Brian Noble]

Which must mean that MDE isn't negatively impacting attendance.

Odd.

 

[JimmyV]

How convenient for you. You can't be wrong.

Neither of us can be.

 

[Brian Noble]

No, I'm happy to wager that FP+ will not revert to FP. If it does, no matter what the actual reason, I am willing to stipulate it changed because too many guests did not like it.

 

[JimmyV]

Which must mean that MDE isn't negatively impacting attendance.

Odd.

I don't recall saying it would. Reading comprehension. Go back a bit. Disney is trying to capture more of each tourist's 8 days in the area. Failure is not a decrease in attendance. Failure is spending billions but still only getting 6 of those days. There is no evidence that the 4% growth is a result of capturing the 7th and 8th days.

 

[JimmyV]

Why would anyone bet that there will be a reversion? It can't happen.

 

[Brian Noble]

So, what objective metric would you propose to measure its success or failure? Again, I'm all ears.

 

[Cormoran]

How convenient for you. You can't be wrong.

Convenient for you too, since you can't be proved wrong either!

 

[cakebaker]

And I am equally confident that they created a system designed to maximize profit. There is no way that a majority of guests would ever have responded favorably to a survey asking if they would prefer a FP system that limits them to 3, had tiering that precluded them from getting passes for both Soarin' and Test Track, limited them to passes at only one park per day and required staying up until midnight to book attractions 60 days in advance. These are not features that "a majority of their guests" were demanding.

I thought it went without saying their #1 goal was to maximize profits. It seems you think that is somehow wrong- I think it's good business. But you aren't going to maximize profits if you put out a product few people want. So, making customer satisfaction a high priority will get you maximum profits.

More than a year ago we were hearing "just wait till the financial reports come out in a few months, you'll see. Disney will be in the toilet". In actuality, the opposite has happened, but now we hear- "it hasn't been enough time" or "those profits are because of price increases" or any other possible reasoning behind record profits other than the obvious- Disney produces a product consumers continue to want, in record numbers. So you honestly think WDW instituted a system they knew was a failure as far as guests go, yet somehow thought, this will make us money alienating them????

Let's turn your survey into one about legacy. Let's ask guests if they'd like to have to get to the parks at opening, run with hundreds of other people as fast as they could to get to a machine to pull out a ticket that will give them a return time they may not be able to use and then later in the day find that they can't get those tickets at all.

My survey accurately depicts legacy just as well as yours depicts FP+.

The key to know whether this is a success or not is how the profits turn out and so far, they're turning out great! There's been no mass exodus of guests due to FP+ and WDW is getting no message at all other than it is just what they expected it to be.

 

[Planogirl]

I think the false premise for your comments is buried right there in the middle of them. My point was that I've never considered myself to be a "commando", don't want to be a "commando", and that perhaps Disney could remedy their little issue with ride capacity in one fell swoop by acquiring Universal.

Don't even think such things! Ugh.

FP+ = Everyone gets a trophy.
FP- = Wait your turn outside the queue, feel free to shop and spend $ while you wait

One system costs millions to implement and maintain. The other had already paid for itself years ago. When people running the show think like this, Logic is simply not involved.

FP+ didn't bring more people to the parks, new attractions and an improving economy did.

Don't bother hoping that FP+ will get "fixed". It's just not happening. It's best to lower your expectations, you'll be happier.

I like your comment about a trophy or feeling free to spend money. In either case you wait but the set up is simply different.

This isn't even debatable. It is no mystery that this system was put into place after HP opened up. Disney noticed that the typical guest in the Central Florida area stayed for 7-8 days. Do the math. There are 4 Disney Parks, two Universal Parks and one Seaworld Park. This is not to say that everyone visited each park for one day each. Far from it. But Disney noticed that people could absolutely get their fill of Disney in 5 or 6 days leaving them with one, two or maybe three days to explore other attractions. Disney wanted to capture those extra days. So they devised a system that: a) "locks people in", trying to keep them on property; and b) slows down the pace of their Disney days so that it takes 6 or 7 days to do what they used to do in 4 or 5. They want you to relax and enter the park at 10:30 after having a character breakfast in the Poly. They get more money from that breakfast purchase than they do from you buying a cinnamon roll at the MK. And they want you to feel good about the fact that strolling in at 10:30 has not put you at any disadvantage when it comes to riding the headliners. And all of this works. But it cannot be challenged that a family that enters the park at 10:30-11:00 cannot do as much as they did when they entered the park at 8:30-9:00. They need more days. Or they need to be content at the end of a similar number of days with having done less. We can debate the "It works for us" vs. "We hate it" until we are out of breath, ink and bytes. But what cannot be debated is that the system was designed to get you to allocate more days to WDW and fewer (if any) days to SW and US. It would be delusional for anyone to think that Disney created this system to speed you up, to make you more efficient and to streamline your time at WDW. Do you really think they would roll out a system that would allow you to do in 4 days that which you used to do in 6?

I've thought about this, and perhaps the single biggest problem with FP+ is the ability to book FP times at park opening. If the first FP slots were not available until the parks had been open for a full hour, I wonder if people would be "forced" to go at RD, and I wonder if the SB lines would bog down as much as they are. Let everyone ride SB for the first hour without getting cut off by people with 9:10 FPs and we might see a different crowd dynamic.

I wonder how many people will want to linger in their resorts though? I love a few of the Disney resorts but frankly they aren't exactly exciting places to spend time. I also still maintain that the system is giving me the opportunity to spend less time in WDW than before. They made it easier for people like us.

I thought it went without saying their #1 goal was to maximize profits. It seems you think that is somehow wrong- I think it's good business. But you aren't going to maximize profits if you put out a product few people want. So, making customer satisfaction a high priority will get you maximum profits.

More than a year ago we were hearing "just wait till the financial reports come out in a few months, you'll see. Disney will be in the toilet". In actuality, the opposite has happened, but now we hear- "it hasn't been enough time" or "those profits are because of price increases" or any other possible reasoning behind record profits other than the obvious- Disney produces a product consumers continue to want, in record numbers. So you honestly think WDW instituted a system they knew was a failure as far as guests go, yet somehow thought, this will make us money alienating them????

Let's turn your survey into one about legacy. Let's ask guests if they'd like to have to get to the parks at opening, run with hundreds of other people as fast as they could to get to a machine to pull out a ticket that will give them a return time they may not be able to use and then later in the day find that they can't get those tickets at all.

My survey accurately depicts legacy just as well as yours depicts FP+.

The key to know whether this is a success or not is how the profits turn out and so far, they're turning out great! There's been no mass exodus of guests due to FP+ and WDW is getting no message at all other than it is just what they expected it to be.

I don't think that the results of any major change would make an impact that quickly. I believe that you would have to allow literally years before you know. Hopefully, Disney will work out some of the wrinkles in the meantime.

 

[JimmyV]

So, what objective metric would you propose to measure its success or failure? Again, I'm all ears.

I thought I was pretty clear.
People spend on average 8 days in Central Florida when they vacation there. Disney wasn't, in the past, capturing all of those days. The "lock it in" initiative is intended to capture more days for Disney. Success is doing so. Failure is not doing so. So status quo (or loss) in days is failure. A gain of days is success. This is measurable. Just not by us.

 

[Hokie2000]

I don't think that the results of any major change would make an impact that quickly. I believe that you would have to allow literally years before you know. Hopefully, Disney will work out some of the wrinkles in the meantime.

I agree, only time will tell if FP+ is a success or failure. The only real conclusion about FP+ we can draw is that it hasn't had an immediate negative effect in that it hasn't been so detrimental as to result in a decrease in revenue or attendance. What that means long-term is anyone's guess.

If I'm guessing, I think the impact of FP+ will be negligible, however MM+ as a whole will be a clear success.

 

[ArwenMarie]

They've said it themselves (I could go dig up the link but I'm too lazy)...

They designed the system to "lock people in" so that when they arrive in Orlando and are exposed to the marketing of other attractions in town (don't know who they would be talking about there ), they are less likely to go there.

I don't think Magic Kingdom has a problem but the other three parks are surely subject to losing days to other attractions in town. People moving from spending their week at Disney to maybe half/half could be significant.

 

[Hokie2000]

I like your comment about a trophy or feeling free to spend money. In either case you wait but the set up is simply different.

I wonder...did the physical act of going to pull a FP make the wait more tolerable? In other words - it requires an action on your part and a game-day decision, so you feel like you're doing more? (I'm using "you" as a general term). With both FP-/+ there is a window to wait for, and plan around, however with FP+ this window has been decided well ahead of time, resulting in the feeling of waiting around for windows to open up?

I don't feel that way, but a lot of people seem to feel like they're waiting around, which you would have to do previously anyway. I know that there's been an uptick in SB for other attractions, but it doesn't seem like it's been severe enough to cause people to feel like they can't do anything but wait around for their FP times.

 

[flicx]

Hear is an interesting theory. Let's compare improvement of attendance between Disney World and Universal. The economy has improved which is equal for both parks, Universal has went with building attractions, Disney MM and FP plus. So what is the actual improvement in attendance numbers at the two parks? Surely this should shed some light on the subject.

 

[JimmyV]

I thought it went without saying their #1 goal was to maximize profits. It seems you think that is somehow wrong- I think it's good business. But you aren't going to maximize profits if you put out a product few people want. So, making customer satisfaction a high priority will get you maximum profits.

More than a year ago we were hearing "just wait till the financial reports come out in a few months, you'll see. Disney will be in the toilet". In actuality, the opposite has happened, but now we hear- "it hasn't been enough time" or "those profits are because of price increases" or any other possible reasoning behind record profits other than the obvious- Disney produces a product consumers continue to want, in record numbers. So you honestly think WDW instituted a system they knew was a failure as far as guests go, yet somehow thought, this will make us money alienating them????

Let's turn your survey into one about legacy. Let's ask guests if they'd like to have to get to the parks at opening, run with hundreds of other people as fast as they could to get to a machine to pull out a ticket that will give them a return time they may not be able to use and then later in the day find that they can't get those tickets at all.

My survey accurately depicts legacy just as well as yours depicts FP+.

The key to know whether this is a success or not is how the profits turn out and so far, they're turning out great! There's been no mass exodus of guests due to FP+ and WDW is getting no message at all other than it is just what they expected it to be.

I never said that corporate profit was a bad goal. I also never said that a year into this, Disney would "be in the toilet." So don't lump me in with that other chorus. To be crystal clear here, public satisfaction of any new venture cannot be measured by the "first use". It can only be measured by repeat business. How many restaurants open to huge buzz, endless fully booked nights and huge profits but close in two years? If you look at the first two months, the restaurant is a huge success. But the customers cool to the place and don't come back as often. With an expensive vacation destination like WDW where you don't have weekly or monthly customers and instead have once every two or three years customers, it will take time to determine if people say: "You know what? Disney wasn't as much fun last time we went. In 2016, let's go to the Grand Canyon." We just aren't there yet. Today's profits are driven by price increases. It's right there in black and white. This is neither a sign of success or failure. No side can claim victory off of a quarterly statement.

Finally, don't be so fast to assume profit equals customer satisfaction. Airline profits are through the roof right now in large part due to some fare increases, practices, policies and fees that customers hate. But they pay them. The dissatisfaction with FP- from your survey was linked to one attraction and one attraction only. On balance, people would prefer to be able to get FPs for Soarin' and Test Track, or TSMM, RNR, and ToT all in the same day. I will readily admit that as people herded themselves to Pixar Place, they said: "There has to be a better way." But if a genie appeared and said: "There is. But you will be limited to 3 FPs, and cannot get them for multiple headliners on the same day", what percentage of people would have signed up for that? 90%? 75%? 50%? 20%?

 

[Planogirl]

They've said it themselves (I could go dig up the link but I'm too lazy)...

They designed the system to "lock people in" so that when they arrive in Orlando and are exposed to the marketing of other attractions in town (don't know who they would be talking about there ), they are less likely to go there.

I don't think Magic Kingdom has a problem but the other three parks are surely subject to losing days to other attractions in town. People moving from spending their week at Disney to maybe half/half could be significant.

The problem is that DHS, AK and (IMO) Epcot are still half day parks. Spreading out their few attractions doesn't change that - it just gives people more time to stand around and notice how few attractions there are particularly in DHS.

 

[cakebaker]

I don't think that the results of any major change would make an impact that quickly. I believe that you would have to allow literally years before you know. Hopefully, Disney will work out some of the wrinkles in the meantime.

I agree- But there's absolutely nothing to indicate any serious problems as of yet and that wasn't the prevailing opinion around here a year or so ago. Back then, the negative results were going to hit and hit hard by the next vacation season. I read an awful lot of posts saying wait for the results that come back after the first of the year. They're back and it's all good news.

I don't think it's a sure sign all is wonderful but neither do I think that it's just a matter of time before they're forced to shut the gates due to their stupidity and greediness. I'm expecting with time they'll implement some of the enhancement they've talked about.

 

[cakebaker]

The dissatisfaction with FP- from your survey was linked to one attraction and one attraction only.

No it wasn't- that's already been pointed out.

 

[WillAustin]

The problem is that DHS, AK and (IMO) Epcot are still half day parks. Spreading out their few attractions doesn't change that - it just gives people more time to stand around and notice how few attractions there are particularly in DHS.

I agree. That's why we are far more likely to spend less time in a park than we did before.

 

[JimmyV]

No it wasn't- that's already been pointed out.

If you scroll up a few pages you will see that even the people on your side of the argument admit that FPs for all other rides were still available, routinely, until md-afternoon. No need to "run to the machines."