How important is a college degree?

[kpm76]

Well, my "useless" English degree has served me quite well. I have a great job that I love and it compensates me very well. I actually believe that English is one of the more useful majors. The curriculum teaches students to think critically and analytically, while fine tuning oral and written communication skills, which is not only beneficial, but in most cases, necessary for almost all professions. The exception that comes to mind are really technical jobs, but even then I imagine that you'd still need to be able to articulate yourself clearly.

Sure there are people doing "just fine" without degrees but the term "just fine" is subjective. I think in most situations there will always be a ceiling on those without degrees. I have a family member without a degree who is in sales and he's doing great now but he's reached the top of the ladder for him and his earning potential is at its max.

It would be very hard to convine me that having a degree is not ideal. Sure, four year colleges are not for everyone and I fully understand that. However, you have to be realistic with youself when deciding which route to take. You need to think about where your career will end up and how far you will make it without one. I've been out of college 8 years and it's a really competitive atmosphere in the job market. Most of my friends and business associates are pursuing master's degrees to remain competitive in their fields.

 

[RitaZ.]

Well, there it is... The real reason behind the OP's thread: to diminish and put down, once again, those with "useless" college degrees.

Kinda makes you wonder if the OP regrets not having completed her education. Well, the good news is that it's never too late to matriculate.

 

[LoraJ]

As others have said, I think it depends on the industry/field.

I dropped out of college because after my third semester, I had taken all of the subjects related to my major except for the ones that I would not be allowed to take until my senior year. So in between that time, I would have a whole slew of courses I had no desire to sit through before I got to the good stuff.

So I packed up and moved 500 miles to the Big Apple and went to a technical school. I was giving myself a year to make it in the big city, if not I would go home and go back to school. The technical school had job placement. I got hired on the first job interview I went on. I was up against a classmate of mine, who actually had an associates degree. They were more impressed with me though because of the courage I had to move out on my own at age 19.


That job got my foot in the door. It didn't pay very well, that's for sure. But most entry level jobs don't. I didn't care, I was working in the television industry, just like I had always dreamed. I was meeting celebrities just about every day. It was thrilling. I was also able to get training in the editing department. And eventually I was stolen away by the company I am with now.

Where I work, you would not be able to tell who has a degree and who doesn't. If I ever wanted to become a manager at my company, they would have me take a course to give some managerial skills. That's what they did with a co-worker of mine when he became a manager. He doesn't have a degree. So, I know it is possible where I work. The thing is, I have absolutely no desire to be a manager. I am a creative type. I need to create stuff.

Even without a degree, I have been able to use my logic skills to develop new processes in my department. When I tell people that I never finished college, they are surprised. I am far from bigoted (I can spell it correctly without a degree ) and uninformed.

If I wanted to be a teacher, I would have gotten the education I needed to become one. Same as if I wanted to become a lawyer or a doctor.

My friends who I went to school with and went on to get their degrees, not one of them are working in a field that they wanted to go into. And none of them love their jobs.

I love what I do and I am happy where I am. I should be getting promoted soon and from there who knows where I will go.

My brother has a masters degree and I make more than twice as much money as he does. It drives him nuts too.

Where I work, every single new job posted says you need some sort of degree, but they will still interview you if you don't have one and they will hire you if you have the best experience and are the most qualified.

 

[ducklite]

My English degree got me in the door of many interviews (advertising, public relations, newspapers, etc) that I never would have been granted without, and I do feel it was time well spent.

I don't have a degree and am a journalist. I've written a monthly column for one magazine, am on staff at one right now, and have had freelance work published in at least six or seven other magazines, some on a regular basis. At this point my track record is far more important than my lack of a degree.

Anne

 

[ducklite]

"If I were hiring for a 25,000 person company, I'm sure I'd be looking at things differently. There will never be a large I/T team, and for that reason in itself this is not a management track position. Because we are a group of franchised stores, 90% of our I/T services are provided by our "parent company."

So until you know all the details, you might want to keep your bashing to yourself."

Ummmm...I wasn't bashing.

You are confusing hiring the 'person' and the 'role' the will take. The 'role' very well may never be management, but the PERSON might be one day. So you should not advertise (or say this during the interview process) that there is no room for advancement - you will turn off a lot of qualified people that may provide long - term benefits to your company. What I meant by being short sighted is that anyone who is doing personnel hiring should look at the long term potential of the employee - not just in the 'role' for which they are interviewing.

Surely there is someone in HR that can help you with this?

Of course I would not say that there was no room for advancement. If the person wants to eventually take a different career path within the company, then there might eventually be room for advancement--but it won't be within I/T--at least not more than a team leader, which would be the bottom rung of management, not what most would consider a career track.

Our HR Dept. is a one man show, and has nothing to do with the hiring process except processing papaerwork.

Anne

 

[ducklite]

Seems to me you know what you want for an employee.

The degree person would basically mean that they can stick to something for an extended period of time, that they can communicate on a higher level (written especially), and usually they can think for themselves and often lead - all in addition to having the training that the degree gave them. If you don't need any of that - go for the other.

As a non-degreed individual who is a journalist, I find your comments not only offensive, but ridiculous. My writing ability far exceeds that of my husband, who has a masters, and my sister who has a PhD.

I am certainly able to think for myself.

And I'd like you to tell many people in our military who are not degreed that they are unable to lead.

Anne

 

[ducklite]

And as far as "needing" a degree. That also depends on what you want to do and how far up the ladder you want to go.

Exactly. My son's boss runs a profitable department in a well respected grocery store and has no degree. My son has absolutely no inclination to be in management, his aspirirations are to be a butcher, and he would like to retire from where he is currently working as a meat clerk. No degree needed for that. And he will ultimately make as much money as many people with four year degrees.

In many cases, the four year degree isn't enough anymore. Masters are more valuable for opening doors. In other areas, where the diploma was enough (nursing in particular) - now a BSN is often required before many hospitals will consider you for management positions - and really, they want Masters in that field too.

I absolutely agree with you, BUT it depends on the field. My brother just finished his MBA, which will open a LOT of doors for him (although he's already the director of accounting at a state university.) My husband has a masters in computer programming, his BS was in computer engineering. He didn't *need* it for his job, but got it because he dodn't go right into his field from graduation, so it was the only way he was going to get hired. However many people in his department don't have a degree, only a certificate, and are making as much as he does. My sister has a PhD, and of course in her field someone without a degree won't go anywhere.

And I think the OP stated it clearly: they didn't want a college degree person because that person would expect more money - another reason to get the degree; those with degrees are generally paid more.

Actually, I never said I didn't want a degree. What I said was that someone with a certificate will likely bring more "real life" skills with them, be more willing to pitch in on non I/T projects, and "possibly" want more money than what their degree is worth to my company. That's key. I'm looking for a skill set, not a degree.

But not everyone wants to be a boss or a manager. And often money and benefits aren't all that important to them.

This is absolutely the truth, and quite possibly my ideal candidate.

Anne

 

[ducklite]

Well, there it is... The real reason behind the OP's thread: to diminish and put down, once again, those with "useless" college degrees.

Kinda makes you wonder if the OP regrets not having completed her education. Well, the good news is that it's never too late to matriculate.

That wasn't my intention at all, and at this point in my career, I have no regrets about not finishing, and no need for a degree. I've done just fine without one.

Yes, there have been some jobs I've been passed over for because I didn't have a degree (which was completely irrelevent to the position considering I had 15 years experience in the field) but my position on them was that it was their loss. With that much relevent experience, what on earth is someone with a degree going to be able to offer that I can't? Absolutely nothing. I'm not talking about comparing a couple of 22 year olds with limited experience.

I also never said a degree was "useless", although I do believe that there are some majors which are less usefull than others.

I fully agree that in *some* fields a degree is crucial. Many of the health sciences require a degree, and for good reason--although there are a lot of "tech" jobs that a certificate is adequate--phlebotomist, x-ray tech, nursing assistant, etc. Those that justifiably require a degree are teaching, accounting (although IMHO basic office bookkeeping doesn't), many scientific positions, although again there are some "technician" roles that a certificate will be more than adequate for.

Anne

 

[Just2554]

Well, my "useless" English degree has served me quite well. I have a great job that I love and it compensates me very well. I actually believe that English is one of the more useful majors. The curriculum teaches students to think critically and analytically, while fine tuning oral and written communication skills, which is not only beneficial, but in most cases, necessary for almost all professions. The exception that comes to mind are really technical jobs, but even then I imagine that you'd still need to be able to articulate yourself clearly.

I just want to say thank you for posting this. I am an Accounting major who is taking on an English minor at the moment (which I may up to a dual major at a later time, I will only be a sophomore in the fall). I love both subjects and I have had so much encouragement from both my English and Accounting professors and also people in the real world, that I see no reason not to follow both paths. English classes require alot of patience, determination, analysis, and critical thinking; these qualities would serve anyone well in the real world. You'd be surprised at the amount of college students who couldn't write if their lives and careers depended on it. I'd hardly say English is a useless major/minor.

That being said, I don't really feel that ALL jobs require a four-year education. My best friend's boyfriend goes to a technical school for car mechanics. In his life, college and a four-year education would be totally useless. For me though, no four-year education in Accounting equals no job. It all really depends on what field/profession you want to enter in to.

FWIW, neither one of my parents has a college degree (both dropped out at 19, got married, and my dad joined the Air Force) and their combined income is almost 200,000 dollars a year.

 

[dmslush]

For my current position, as a legal advocate at a domestic violence shelter, a degree is not required (although I have one). The actual job description says, "Some college preferred, but not required." However, for my 'future' career as a Licensed Professional Counselor, I have to have a MA, which I am currently working on.

More importantly than whether or not current or future jobs will require a degree or not, I have pursued my education on a self satisfying need. I actually dropped out of high school in the tenth grade. I was later encouraged by my SO to take the GED test, then to try my hand at Community College. I enjoyed the learning process so much that I have just kept going. I finished my AA, earned my BS and am now working on my MA. I have all intentions of completing my doctorate also. I have also done all of this school work while working and raising my family. So, I have plenty of educational AND hands on experience. If someone decides that they do not want to give me the opportunity to interview for a job because they feel that an education is a black mark against my ability to be a team player, well then it is their loss.

Oh, and as far as wanting more money than I am worth, I am currently making less than $25,000 a year. I could go elsewhere and make more money, but that whole loyalty and love of my profession keeps me here.

And for not wanting to be a team player.. well, I was at the shelter at 5:30am the other morning cleaning up USED toilet paper that had been left on the floor. It never dawned on me that I was too educated to do such a thing.

 

[BriarfoxinWA]

Well I'll add my 2 cents. I work as a commercial lender for a large national bank. I took the hard road and worked my way up from a clerk position. I have had great support from my bosses and the one who didn't support me I quit and went to work for another bank. I don't have a college degree but I did do a certification program through a nation banking program. At some point I believe I had enough experience that the degree didn't matter but I do think it has made it a little harder getting promoted.

I'm torn on the issue because there has been a big push in the banking industry to recruit straight out of college those with Masters in finance or business. The problem is most of these "kids" don't want to bother with being just a credit analyst they want to be a lender. The usual career path is ...credit analyst...assistant relationship manager...then relationship manager (loan officer). They don't have the real world experience to deal with business owners. Worst of all every one I've had the please of working with had absolutely no common sense at all. Sure they can discuss high finance but they don't have a clue on how to make a business run in the real world or how to deal with clients on a day to day basis.

Guess I would rather take somebody off the street with no degree but lots of common sense and some ambition and train them, then have to deal with a huge ego that thinks the $80K salary is their "right" and they don't have to earn it.

Bottom line my opinion FWIW is that the only thing a 4 year degree says is that you had the ability to stick with a program and see it finished. Your "trainable", doesn't tell me there is any ability beyond that.

 

[BriarfoxinWA]

For my current position, as a legal advocate at a domestic violence shelter, a degree is not required (although I have one). The actual job description says, "Some college preferred, but not required." However, for my 'future' career as a Licensed Professional Counselor, I have to have a MA, which I am currently working on.

More importantly than whether or not current or future jobs will require a degree or not, I have pursued my education on a self satisfying need. I actually dropped out of high school in the tenth grade. I was later encouraged by my SO to take the GED test, then to try my hand at Community College. I enjoyed the learning process so much that I have just kept going. I finished my AA, earned my BS and am now working on my MA. I have all intentions of completing my doctorate also. I have also done all of this school work while working and raising my family. So, I have plenty of educational AND hands on experience. If someone decides that they do not want to give me the opportunity to interview for a job because they feel that an education is a black mark against my ability to be a team player, well then it is their loss.

Oh, and as far as wanting more money than I am worth, I am currently making less than $25,000 a year. I could go elsewhere and make more money, but that whole loyalty and love of my profession keeps me here.

And for not wanting to be a team player.. well, I was at the shelter at 5:30am the other morning cleaning up USED toilet paper that had been left on the floor. It never dawned on me that I was too educated to do such a thing.

Had to reply and say I admire you for doing this. You would be just the kind of person I would love to hire. You're going for your degree but you have the common sense and real world experience that most lack.

GOOD FOR YOU!

 

[CheshireVal]

I don't have a degree and am a journalist. I've written a monthly column for one magazine, am on staff at one right now, and have had freelance work published in at least six or seven other magazines, some on a regular basis. At this point my track record is far more important than my lack of a degree.

Anne

It's really easy to freelance without a degree, which will give you the experience you need to eventually be on staff somewhere.

However, I think it would be far more difficult, if not impossible, to try to get an interview at a newspaper for a staff position with no degree and not much experience.

If you're successful without a degree, then great, but to suggest that an English degree is useless in the journalism field is, frankly, not true. I was able to get a job as an editor/reporter at a newspaper right out of college with not much more experience than writing for my college paper and freelancing for a few local music magazines. They would have thrown my resume right in the trash if I hadn't had my BA at the time.

 

[ducklite]

It's really easy to freelance without a degree, which will give you the experience you need to eventually be on staff somewhere.

However, I think it would be far more difficult, if not impossible, to try to get an interview at a newspaper for a staff position with no degree and not much experience.

If you're successful without a degree, then great, but to suggest that an English degree is useless in the journalism field is, frankly, not true. I was able to get a job as an editor/reporter at a newspaper right out of college with not much more experience than writing for my college paper and freelancing for a few local music magazines. They would have thrown my resume right in the trash if I hadn't had my BA at the time.

OK, first of all, I never suggested that an English degree was useless in a journalism career. It is useless in many other career paths though without getting an advanced degree in something more specific, unless you want to write, edit, teach, etc.

My first professional writing job was as a monthly columnist with a lending industry publication. In all honesty they needed someone with topical knowledge regarding a specific industry trend more than someone who could write well enough to have a byline published in the NY Times. They recruited me as I was recognized as an expert on that particular topic, and never once asked me if I had a degree in english/journalism, or otherwise.

I wrote that column for going on four years, until I decided to move on to a similar position in a different industry. From there I used that experience as a launching board to do a lot of freelance work. And then used the freelance work as a music journalist with land a gig with a regional music and nightlife magazine.

It's all about leveraging skills. I'm sure there are other writers who are FAR better than I am, but they either lacked the subject matter expertise or the passion for the topic that I have. And for many audiences, those are far more important qualifications.

PS--I read Dave Marsh and Robert Greenfield's books to analyze and develop technique, they are my idols!

Anne

 

[ducklite]

For my current position, as a legal advocate at a domestic violence shelter, a degree is not required (although I have one). The actual job description says, "Some college preferred, but not required." However, for my 'future' career as a Licensed Professional Counselor, I have to have a MA, which I am currently working on.
<snip>
And for not wanting to be a team player.. well, I was at the shelter at 5:30am the other morning cleaning up USED toilet paper that had been left on the floor. It never dawned on me that I was too educated to do such a thing.

First, I applaud you for choosing to make a difference!

But as to your cleanup, I think that in your field people are more inclined to do what it takes. The I/T industry in my experience is quite different, people tend to have a "not my job" attitude.

Anne

 

[ktpool]

The I/T industry in my experience is quite different, people tend to have a "not my job" attitude. Anne

Are you kidding me???? Now, that is offensive

And that comment explains all I need to know about this whole discussion.

 

[ducklite]

Are you kidding me???? Now, that is offensive

And that comment explains all I need to know about this whole discussion.

No, THAT is MY EXPERIENCE. If yours is different, that's great. But after spending five+ years in the I/T department of a Fortune 100, those with degrees often were much less willing to pitch in on projects outside the scope of their job description. In some casesoutright refused to, in other cases did so only when absolutely given no choice by their supervisor.

Anne

 

[ead79]

For this position, it sounds like what you really need is someone who can do the hands-on tasks required. I'm sure there are people with MCSA certificates and people with BS degrees in CS that can both do the job. What you're really looking for is someone with the right attitude to work at a small company where pitching in on non-related tasks is a necessity. I have found that willing employees are willing to do what it takes regardless of whether or not they have a degree. At least that has been my experience. I can't tell you how many envelopes I've stuffed, Christmas cards I've designed, etc., and I graduated from college magna cum laude with a BBA in Marketing. There are selfish people who won't do things outside their job description--these people would be selfish whether they went to a vocational school or Harvard. It's all in the attitude.

I agree with the other posters who mentioned that having a four year degree shows that the person can stick with things and has perseverance. You seem to assume that all people learn in college is foreign language and history as opposed to valuable real-life skills. College helps improve critical thinking skills, broadens a person's knowledge base, and teaches a student to problem solve. Can these skills be gained without attending college? Of course, but why not take the opportunity if it's available?

Also, I could not disagree more with your statement that taking the required tests for the MCSA certificate is equivalent to a four year degree. As someone who worked very hard to achieve my college degree with high honors, this simply isn't true. My husband took a practice MCSE test his freshman year in college, and he passed without studying for it. College is much longer and more challenging than the prep for a MCSA or MCSE certificate.

Overall, it seems that you have an extremely negative opinion of those who complete a degree, at least those in the IT field. Relevant work experience and a degree aren't mutually exclusive. Neither is a willing attitude and a degree. I would be careful not to assume that your experience is the only valid experience.

 

[Feralpeg]

First, I applaud you for choosing to make a difference!

But as to your cleanup, I think that in your field people are more inclined to do what it takes. The I/T industry in my experience is quite different, people tend to have a "not my job" attitude.

Anne

I worked for a large IT firm for 30 years. I was a manager of IT people for 15 of those years. It really comes down to individuals. I had people who had no degree that could run rings aroune some with an IT degree. I also had the opposite situation.

IMHO, a person can never have too much education, however education does not ensure success. A persom must also have ambition and common sense. To say that a degree makes or breaks a person is riduculous. If I were in your position, Anne, I'd leave the degree requirement out of the job description and look for an individual who has the experience and drive that will make that person a worthwhile employee. If they have a degree and that adds to the mix, great. If not, but they seem qualified for what you need. Go for it. Just remember, the person you least suspect might someday be running the company.

 

[declansdad]

Also, I could not disagree more with your statement that taking the required tests for the MCSA certificate is equivalent to a four year degree. As someone who worked very hard to achieve my college degree with high honors, this simply isn't true. My husband took a practice MCSE test his freshman year in college, and he passed without studying for it. College is much longer and more challenging than the prep for a MCSA or MCSE certificate.

Sorry but unless you have taken the certification exams for an MCSE, you cannot make that comparison. The study for a MCSE certification is very intense and difficult. It also requires constant upgrading which many undergraduate degrees do not.