How do you feel about school vouchers?

[KatheeME]

School vouchers used for private or religious schools are absolutely NOT unconstitutional. First of all, we have freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. Secondly, does freedom of religion trump our freedom of education? Should a child be forced to suffer a sub par education simply because the alternative would be to sit next to a christian in math class?? or go to private school and sit next to wealthy kids?? Does anyone see anything that makes this all unconstitutional??

Excuse, we certainly DO have freedom from religion in this country, be sure of that. Separation of Church and State. Sitting beside a "christian" is NOT the same thing as me paying for a child to attend a religious school. What is wrong with putting that money into public education?

Kathee

 

[KatheeME]

Excuse me, but It was their money in the first place untill the governement took it away via taxes was it not, so therefore your not taking a damn thing away from the poor, because they didn't have it in the first place.



Could you please site from the constitution, where it states that vouchers are not allowed? For that matter could you please show me where the right to have an education is even in the constitution? It really galls me when people toss out things as unconstitutional, that have apparently not read the document in question.

I will say it again, read the Constitution, I have, thank you very much. Separation of church and state. And, if you had really read my posts, it's paying for a religious school with vouchers is what is wrong, not to opt out of a failing school. Do not pretend to know what I have read and not read.

Kathee

 

[luvmy3]

What I don't understand is why these children from poor performing schools deserve to get a better education at a private or parochial school. Why not just give them an opportunity to attend a better performing public school in their district. If the goal is a better education, than it shouldn't make a difference if its from a private school or a high performing public school.

 

[KatheeME]

Vouchers are indeed constitutional. The Supreme Court tells me so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelman_v._Simmons-Harris

I, personally, am against vouchers because they will lead to excessive government entanglement in private schools, resulting in the private school product being indistinguishable from the public school product.

A far superior solution is the "Universal Tuition Tax Credit." If you have a serious interest in the subject, I suggest reading this report from the Mackinac Center:

http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=362

Public education was meant to be equal, sadly it's not. For many reasons we all know. You are worried about private education being indistinguishable from public education? Wow, wouldn't it be "terrible" if they were equal.

Kathee

 

[KatheeME]

You DO realize that some of your tax money already goes to pay for some things in private/religious schools, don't you? They do get federal and state funds for things like math, reading, etc. they just can't spend that money on religious related material, etc.


I think the system in MN is a good option vs vouchers. We have statewide open enrollement. Any student in any district can apply to attend school in another district. Unless the class is full or the child has a bad behavior record the applications are generally accepted. We have had this program for 10+ years and guess what, the failing schools are still failing. Why, because the demographics of those schools haven't changed. In some ways they have gotten worse because the better students have left for better schools.

The tax dollars the district would have gotten for that child moves with the child (most but not all of the money). The incoming districts see a gain in their revenue from that tax money so it is advantageous for them to accept students to fill classes without adding classes and increasing their costs.

Most students that open enroll in other districts do so for sports, however. You don't see many students from the worst schools moving to better schools. The city schools even offer free busing for kids that want to attend a better suburban school, not many kids take advantage of that. Also, the private schools are not involved with this so no worries about tuition, etc. The public schools in MN are very good so there is very little educational quality difference between schools and the public schools are as good as and better then the private schools.

Oh yeah, I know that, it doesn't make it right.
Kathee

 

[BrerMom]

Stumbled onto a couple of interesting articles. Click on the titles to read the entire articles:

Home help: Parents play a vital role in learning

Getting parents involved in their children's learning, especially what you do at home, is known to make a real difference and potentially has a much bigger impact on a child's success at school than anything else.

Research has shown that the effect of parents and what they do at home to support learning can account for 80 per cent of a child's academic success. This compares to school being directly responsible for around 20 per cent of factors leading to academic achievement.

This is because parents are crucial in shaping a child's perception and approach to learning. As parents we are fundamental in determining whether or not our child aspires to learn and achieve, is well behaved within school and has good attendance. Often as parents we can also offer the one opportunity most children get for regular one-to-one learning.

Children's test results 'helped by bedtime stories'

Too many parents stop reading bedtime stories to their children once they start school, according to a report to be published today.

They drop the habit believing they can leave it up to teachers to improve their children's reading and comprehension, it will say.

The report, by the National Literacy Trust, will claim that parents who stop reading to their children once they start compulsory education at the age of five are jeopardising their chances of success. Research shows that children brought up in a home that continues to regard reading as a source of entertainment are far more likely to achieve higher reading standards in national curriculum tests.

 

[disneyjunkie]

I want to explain, I am not trying to be ugly.
Disclaimer: This is all hypothetical.
Say school X is a failing public school and kids are at Level 4. Those parents put their kids in school Y (Private) where the children are at Level 1.

Y school then has to play "catch up" with students from X school, basically reviewing what students at Y school all along already knew.

I know it sounds easy to "put them in another class" or whatnot, but many private schools are small and only have 1 class per grade. that is my experience with private schools. It has nothing to do with code of conduct or following the rules. Just if the teacher has to "reteach", then current students are not learning , just reviewing.

Once again, this has nothing to do with behavior etc.

What about the students who are working on grade level? Would you be against them using vouchers to attend your school?

Not all kids attending failing schools are below grade level. The elementary school a few blocks away from me has 60% of their 4th graders with math/reading scores that are below grade level. (levels 1 and 2) 40% of them are at or above grade level. (levels 3 and 4)

You see this in inner city schools throughout the city. Every failing school has students who beat the odds and manage to excel.

These kids are stuck in this schools because
A. The parents can't afford the send them to a private school
B. There aren't enough seats in gifted public schools.

 

[luvmy3]

What about the students who are working on grade level? Would you be against them using vouchers to attend your school?

Not all kids attending failing schools are below grade level. The elementary school a few blocks away from me has 60% of their 4th graders with math/reading scores that are below grade level. (levels 1 and 2) 40% of them are at or above grade level. (levels 3 and 4)

You see this in inner city schools throughout the city. Every failing school has students who beat the odds and manage to excel.

These kids are stuck in this schools because
A. The parents can't afford the send them to a private school
B. There aren't enough seats in gifted public schools.

But why do these students NEED to go to a private school or a gifted public school. How about a regular public school that meets and or exceeds standards. Surely these students would do well if they were placed in a better than where they are public school.

 

[Janet Hill]

I will say it again, read the Constitution, I have, thank you very much. Separation of church and state. And, if you had really read my posts, it's paying for a religious school with vouchers is what is wrong, not to opt out of a failing school. Do not pretend to know what I have read and not read.
Kathee

A tuition voucher is just that a government subsidy to be used at the parent's discretion to pay for education whether it be at the local Catholic school or any other non-religious affiliated school. To use your analogy a person receiving a welfare check should not be allowed to place a $ in the church collection plate, since it's the government's money.

Besides the government already gives vouchers (of such) that are used to fund an education at a religious university -- pell grants and federal student loan subsidies. These are really not much diffent than education vouchers.

 

[GeorgiaPeach8]

But why do these students NEED to go to a private school or a gifted public school. How about a regular public school that meets and or exceeds standards. Surely these students would do well if they were placed in a better than where they are public school.

I think people are missing the point...I would like to have some stats on how many of these children actually switch schools and go to a private schools. There seems to be two HUGE obstacles--1) who makes up the difference in tutition. The private Catholic school down the street from our house is $8k a year just for tutition...then there are books, lunches, field trips, class fees. 2) These private schools are not required to accept or kept these students. They can be kicked out for any reason.

I think this is kind of a political bait and switch...it doesn't cost the government anything to give me a tutition voucher for a school that I can't afford and doesn't want my child anyway. Then, if I can't hack it financially or my kid gets kicked out...the politicians can say "well, we tried to help but there are just some people you can't help."

 

[disneyjunkie]

But why do these students NEED to go to a private school or a gifted public school. How about a regular public school that meets and or exceeds standards. Surely these students would do well if they were placed in a better than where they are public school.

They don't need to attend a private school. They need options.

Those options charter schools, the ability to transfer to another public school or vouchers.

 

[castleview]

They don't need to attend a private school. They need options.

Those options charter schools, the ability to transfer to another public school or vouchers.

Doesn't NCY have public school options? Or is that for high school only?

 

[luvmy3]

They don't need to attend a private school. They need options.

Those options charter schools, the ability to transfer to another public school or vouchers.

I definitly agree with that. I just don't think one of those options need to be vouchers for private schools. There are plenty of good public schools that these students should have the option of going to.

 

[KatheeME]

A tuition voucher is just that a government subsidy to be used at the parent's discretion to pay for education whether it be at the local Catholic school or any other non-religious affiliated school. To use your analogy a person receiving a welfare check should not be allowed to place a $ in the church collection plate, since it's the government's money.

Besides the government already gives vouchers (of such) that are used to fund an education at a religious university -- pell grants and federal student loan subsidies. These are really not much diffent than education vouchers.

I never thought about the collection plate,thanks, you are right, I like that!

 

[corndog]

Public education was meant to be equal . . .

Says who? On what scale?

 

[Charade]

I agree that the schools need to be fixed, but if the parents are not involved in their child's education in the public schools, a voucher will not help at all.

The schools are failing because the parents aren't as involved as they should be?

Why would sending a child to a better school be a bad thing?

 

[SeeVee]

I agree that the schools need to be fixed, but if the parents are not involved in their child's education in the public schools, a voucher will not help at all.

I disagree. If a child is in a school that has a whole host of uninterested parents, then the school has to cater to the lowest common denominator. As with anything, when catering to the LCD, the bar gets lowered and standards are foresaken. The child with the involved parents suffers and this is not fair. That parent should have the option of putting his/her child in a better school with the use of a school voucher.

 

[castleview]

I disagree. If a child is in a school that has a whole host of uninterested parents, then the school has to cater to the lowest common denominator. As with anything, when catering to the LCD, the bar gets lowered and standards are foresaken. The child with the involved parents suffers and this is not fair. That parent should have the option of putting his/her child in a better school with the use of a school voucher.

Or you could do what we did and move to a better district.

 

[SeeVee]

Using vouchers to opt out of a failing school is one thing, but for a religious school? How is that okay people? Religion is a belief, a personal preference, nothing to do with education. If you want your children to get a religious education, send them to church. Period.

Kathee

Why does "religious" school scare you? They are teaching reading, riding, and 'rythmatic just the same, if not better. So, they have a relgious aspect to them. Big deal.

 

[Cor44432]

Yes, many schools are considered "failing" due to uninterested and/or uninvolved parents. Some are considered "failing" for other reasons, but
the mindset and attitude of parents and the students themselves plays a
larger role than anything else.

Vouchers are not necessarily a bad thing, but they are only a small part
to larger problem. They claim to hold school districts/administrations, teachers
accountable, which is fine, I have no problem being held accountable for what
I do in the classroom. But the question I can never seem to get an answer
to by all the bashers of public schools is......When are the parents and the
students themselves going to be held accountable??
I'm sick and tired of comparing private schools to public schools....they are
apples and oranges due to one word, choice.
Private schools have it, public schools do not, and as long as that is the case,
the playing field will never be level.