Hostess is Toast

[castleview]

I have lived where those threats were made and the breaks and subsidies not accepted. Guess what happen...............the company did leave.

So an employee with a high school education chooses to work as an independent contractor? I don't think so. My state just kept Linda McMahon from becoming a senator and one of the biggest gripes was that her wrestlers in the WWE were paid as independent contractors even though it's a physically taxing job.

As for the companies that did leave, they probably had no intention of staying. They were just trying to put the onus on someone else and some people still fall for that.

 

[ilovemk76]

See, that's the problem with how we all think. If we were truly honest with ourselves, we would admit that everyone out there really is "greedy" because everyone out there wants to turn a profit or make more money. If you honestly disagree, ask yourself if you are willing to make enough money to pay rent (not mortgage because there is no need to own if you aren't investing or wanting to turn a profit) and bills. And by bills, I mean electricity and water; cable and phone are just excessive and not required to live. See, everyone is "greedy" to some extent. There's really nothing wrong with that, either. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have money to buy yourself the luxuries in life. The problem is, people like to point the finger at how certain people are greedy, all the while ignoring their own greed. For example, I have a friend who complains about businesses hiring outside the country and how they do it because it is cheaper for them and that is wrong and greedy. I asked him if he would be willing to absorb some of the additional cost that the businesses would acquire by moving their companies back to the USA. He said absolutely not. He does not want the prices to go up because he spends enough money as is. The company owner should absorb all the cost. The owner pushing the cost down to the American people can be considered greedy, but so can the American consumer who says that he shouldn't have to pay more.


Point is, everyone out there wants to make money.

DH and I always look at where an item is made. We do try to buy American. We have recently found more items that are being made here. We hope this is a trend that continues.

 

[castleview]

DH and I always look at where an item is made. We do try to buy American. We have recently found more items that are being made here. We hope this is a trend that continues.

As do we…the biggest shock is that much of what is sold at Army/Navy stores is not made here. It lowered our selection.

 

[luvmy3]

I don't either. More power to people who do well for themselves; however, I do agree with the other posters that say some go to far. As stated above, many corporations do get huge "local" tax breaks and incentives to hire workers as well as all sorts of other write offs. I do believe that employers who have a thriving business owe just a tad bit more to an employee than a "just a job." It's fine that we can say the Hostess workers were low-skilled, low income folks or that folks in these types of jobs don't deserve much. That's also a bit of a misconception. Working in a plant, food line, assembly line, almost always takes some sort of skills/smarts to run the equipment, troubleshoot the equipment, and just be safe on the equipment.

Corporations have been "lucky" in this economy that people are far more desparate and are willing to work jobs that don't pay for their skill sets. I think the economic downturn, coupled with the lack of worker protections, have made employees easy prey for greedy corporations. I think you can be rich AND have a conscience.

To be fair, I don't think anyone is saying that low skilled workers "don't deserve much", at least I'm not. They deserve what the pay scale for their job is, and compared to top execs that is a very low number. (when comparing minimum wage with the 6 or 7 figure salaries).
If a person feels they aren't being compensated fairly for the job, then find a job where you will be. Or do something for yourself so that your skill level and your pay scale go up.
Or better yet, buy stock in that greedy corp so that you can profit from their "greed" too.

 

[Mkrop]

While you don't like to see people lose their jobs, sometimes they have no one but themselves to blame for that. As a company, Hostess was in trouble. The union workers knew that, but instead of working with Hostess to try and work out a deal that would help keep Hostess open and keep people in jobs, they didn't so now there are no jobs, instead of a number of jobs at a lesser wage.

I just don't get why people have a hard time understanding, a little of something is a whole lot better than nothing.

Doesn't make a lot of sense. From a practical standpoint however, $1 an hour for 18,000 people is a lot more expensive than a 300% raise for the boss. Not arguing right or wrong, just trying to put it in perspective.

And if liquidation was indeed the company's plans all along, I still say the unions shot themselves in the foot by standing firm. At this point, it matter not if they trusted Hostess or thought they'd get robbed again down the road. If you're on a sinking ship, and you know it's sinking, you can try your hardest to keep it afloat long enough for a lifeboat to come by. Or, you can jump into shark infested waters and swim for it. Personally, I'm afraid of sharks.

Union played Chicken...Union lost!

 

[Princess Dolly]

Union played Chicken...Union lost!

I don't think it's quite that simple. I think it gave the hedge funds an excuse to liquidate the company without looking like the bad guys. The end game was always liquidation.

 

[FireDancer]

So an employee with a high school education chooses to work as an independent contractor?

One of my good friends will only work as an independent I.T contractor. He's not only turned down some very good job offers because they could never pay as much as he pulls in managing the infrastructure for a lot of companies but he resigned as CIO of a multinational company to become a contractor. In my field of work this isn't exactly uncommon either.

 

[luvmy3]

Who said anyone is watching? There are plenty of business owners that do take pride in how they run their company and treat their employees. Why is it "crying a river" because people find companies that treat employees like dirt despicable? Are you okay with that?

Again, if someone feels the company they work for treats them like dirt, they are free to leave that company, are they not?

 

[Gumbo4x4]

And again since it keeps coming up, the executives are not the business owners of publicly traded companies unless they are personally the majority share holder. Many have some stock so they are part owners just as many of us are if we have their stock or a 401K containing it.

True this. However, one hears cases all the time of the good ol' boy system where one is CEO of company X and sits on the board of directors for companies Y, Z, A, B, and C. And this handful of small shareholders votes raises for each other in a you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours kind of way. The shareholders who own 90% of the company are millions of "little people" who have little to no power to really control what goes on at the top as each of them own but a tiny fraction of a percent of the company. I have to admit, that kind of sticks in my craw a little, particularly as it pertains to large raises for CEOs of failing companies.

 

[Albort]

Yes I think its okay for a CEO to pull in millions while some workers in that same company make minimum wage, or while some are just temps or ICs. Its not greed, it is life in the corporate world.

http://seattletimes.com/html/soundeconomywithjontalton/2019696179_what_killed_hostess.html

In the latest Chapter 11, the company was saddled with nearly $1 billion in debt. In addition, it was reported that while operating under Chapter 11, top executives gave themselves 80-percent raises in 2011. To be fair, a new chief executive came in last spring and cut the salaries of the four top execs to $1 (to be restored in January). Symbolism is better than nothing. A big complaint is "legacy" pensions, some $2 billion worth. The unanswered question is why were these unfunded during the good years? Executive compensation is never unfunded. When chief executives fail, their lavish golden parachutes are never unfunded.

Im not sure how accurate this is, seems like the only article that states this fact... but if thats true, 80% isnt much...

 

[castleview]

You seem so fixated on the Corporate Greed angle. I suspect you want to regulate salaries and earnings. I do wonder whether you own or have ever owned a business as perhaps you would have some perspective before rushing to the Corporate Greed excuse.

The end result here is that the company was failing on every level and for multiple reasons was unable to compete. Existing or new companies will fill the void.

No way, do I want regulated salaries. Yes, I have worked in small businesses and corporations before and currently run a small business with my sister…while I'm back in school. Anyway...even you have to admit that as good as deregulation and trickle down economics sound, it hasn't worked because people have gotten greedy. I'm not sure what the full answer is but I think we can start by not giving subsidies and tax breaks to corporations and tightening up some of the laws that allow them to carry out an illegal endeavor by exploiting a loophole.

I'm a believer in the free market when it comes to business, but I honestly do not believe every corporation plays by free market rules.

 

[castleview]

One of my good friends will only work as an independent I.T contractor. He's not only turned down some very good job offers because they could never pay as much as he pulls in managing the infrastructure for a lot of companies but he resigned as CIO of a multinational company to become a contractor. In my field of work this isn't exactly uncommon either.

You're talking consulting type work. I'm talking laborers. If someone shows up the machine shop every day to work the same hours doing the same job, should he be an independent contractor?

 

[donaldlovesdaisy]

Anyone else notice the humor in us debating about large corporate companies that are out to make money and the lower level workers who are paid very little all while on a message board dedicated to people who absolutely love Walt Disney World?

I was thinking the exact same thing!

 

[castleview]

Anyone else notice the humor in us debating about large corporate companies that are out to make money and the lower level workers who are paid very little all while on a message board dedicated to people who absolutely love Walt Disney World?

LOL. But does Disney treat their employees badly? Is it a poorly performing company? So who cares.

 

[FireDancer]

You're talking consulting type work. I'm talking laborers. If someone shows up the machine shop every day to work the same hours doing the same job, should he be an independent contractor?

He does both consulting and physical work depending on the company. Some he manages the I.T. infrastructure himself and the company has no internal staff, some he manages the people who work internally, some he consults with about specific projects. I'm not sure why it matters what kind of work the person does. Consulting, blue collar labor, white collar labor, it is all still work.

If he didn't want to continue doing it he could go get a standard job tomorrow, it is his choice.

 

[castleview]

He does both consulting and physical work depending on the company. Some he manages the I.T. infrastructure himself and the company has no internal staff, some he manages the people who work internally, some he consults with about specific projects. I'm not sure why it matters what kind of work the person does. Consulting, blue collar labor, white collar labor, it is all still work.

If he didn't want to continue doing it he could go get a standard job tomorrow, it is his choice.

The point of being in IC is that you sustain yourself based on your services. My guess is your friend can do work for other companies while he does this. Someone making minimum wage who is REQUIRED to be at work for a certain amount of time shouldn't considered an IC.

 

[sadiras]

You seem so fixated on the Corporate Greed angle. I suspect you want to regulate salaries and earnings. I do wonder whether you own or have ever owned a business as perhaps you would have some perspective before rushing to the Corporate Greed excuse.

The end result here is that the company was failing on every level and for multiple reasons was unable to compete. Existing or new companies will fill the void.

We'll probably be importing Twinkies from abroard in the near future.

 

[FireDancer]

The point of being in IC is that you sustain yourself based on your services. My guess is your friend can do work for other companies while he does this. Someone making minimum wage who is REQUIRED to be at work for a certain amount of time shouldn't considered an IC.

He can work for as many companies as he wants as long as he lives up to the terms of the contract he signed. No one has to sign a contract that doesn't offer favorable terms to them.

 

[tvguy]

We'll probably be importing Twinkies from abroard in the near future.

China.

And Diana Sawyer will go there to investigate.

 

[ilovemk76]

So an employee with a high school education chooses to work as an independent contractor? I don't think so. My state just kept Linda McMahon from becoming a senator and one of the biggest gripes was that her wrestlers in the WWE were paid as independent contractors even though it's a physically taxing job.

As for the companies that did leave, they probably had no intention of staying. They were just trying to put the onus on someone else and some people still fall for that.

For you, the glass is always half empty.