Hostess is Toast

I do believe there is something to this as well. Fact is, some jobs are just plain easy. One issue I have with unions is that the easiest jobs go to the most experienced workers. The idea of staying in a BIG company for a LONG time is that you should start out at a low-pay, low-skill job. Over time, as your skill increases, you move into a more difficult job with higher pay. And as more time passes, hopefully you repeat this process. But, because union wages often pay the same across the board, it works in the opposite direction. New hires are given the most difficult tasks, while seasoned veterans use their seniority to work their way DOWN the corporate ladder. That system benefits nobody. The company loses because they don't have the benefit of their best people doing the toughest jobs, and the workers lose because you don't have the opportunity to really work your way UP. Obviously, this is speaking in general terms & it doesn't work that way EVERYWHERE the unions exist. But, it does happen.

I can see the issue with unions keeping everything uncompetitive, but I also think businesses play a part in this too. Few businesses want to pay for on the job training anymore which is bad for the company and the country.
 
If the problem is they are making minimum wage, and they can't live on it, take it up with the legislators. If a person agrees to take a job as a temp, or work as an IC then blame them not the company. They are the ones agreeing to those conditions.
Yes I think its okay for a CEO to pull in millions while some workers in that same company make minimum wage, or while some are just temps or ICs. Its not greed, it is life in the corporate world.

Here's where I disagree, but only partly. I do believe it's greed. OTOH, I believe greed is a 2-way street and that those at the bottom of the wage scale are as guilty of it as those at the top. They're just in less of a position to be able to use their greed to their advantage.
 
I can see the issue with unions keeping everything uncompetitive, but I also think businesses play a part in this too. Few businesses want to pay for on the job training anymore which is bad for the company and the country.

No doubt about it, there's plenty of blame to go around. I just think far too many companies AND unions are stuck in a 1940's frame of mind.
 
That isn't what you said though, this is what you said

Okay, how you tied those two in, I don't know. Never did I say they should make what the CEO does.

If the problem is they are making minimum wage, and they can't live on it, take it up with the legislators. If a person agrees to take a job as a temp, or work as an IC then blame them not the company. They are the ones agreeing to those conditions.
Yes I think its okay for a CEO to pull in millions while some workers in that same company make minimum wage, or while some are just temps or ICs. Its not greed, it is life in the corporate world.

Nobody chooses to temp for as long as people are temping these days. Independent contractors are just an excuse for a business to not pay insurance or social security on an employee. No company is required to keep employees at minimum wage either. If you have the means to do so, then you can pay that person more. I do agree that "that is life in the corporate world" but I don't find it acceptable. Those same corporations get huge tax breaks and subsidies whenever they threaten to leave an area. If you support that they can take all the money was some don't get livable wages, then you support greed.
 
Here's where I disagree, but only partly. I do believe it's greed. OTOH, I believe greed is a 2-way street and that those at the bottom of the wage scale are as guilty of it as those at the top. They're just in less of a position to be able to use their greed to their advantage.

Everyone is greedy, the issue seems to be that some feel anyone with more than X amount in their bank account is evil for being so. I personally don't subscribe to that belief.
 
Here's where I disagree, but only partly. I do believe it's greed. OTOH, I believe greed is a 2-way street and that those at the bottom of the wage scale are as guilty of it as those at the top. They're just in less of a position to be able to use their greed to their advantage.

See, that's the problem with how we all think. If we were truly honest with ourselves, we would admit that everyone out there really is "greedy" because everyone out there wants to turn a profit or make more money. If you honestly disagree, ask yourself if you are willing to make enough money to pay rent (not mortgage because there is no need to own if you aren't investing or wanting to turn a profit) and bills. And by bills, I mean electricity and water; cable and phone are just excessive and not required to live. See, everyone is "greedy" to some extent. There's really nothing wrong with that, either. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have money to buy yourself the luxuries in life. The problem is, people like to point the finger at how certain people are greedy, all the while ignoring their own greed. For example, I have a friend who complains about businesses hiring outside the country and how they do it because it is cheaper for them and that is wrong and greedy. I asked him if he would be willing to absorb some of the additional cost that the businesses would acquire by moving their companies back to the USA. He said absolutely not. He does not want the prices to go up because he spends enough money as is. The company owner should absorb all the cost. The owner pushing the cost down to the American people can be considered greedy, but so can the American consumer who says that he shouldn't have to pay more.


Point is, everyone out there wants to make money.
 
I don't feel they were either. I totally believe that a lot of the hate and rage many people have for the wealthy has a little to do with jealously especially when those people who are expressing their disgust for the wealthy use phrases like "it's not fair" . I wasn't saying this about any poster on here just Americans in general. I am not sure why you are so worked up about my observation/opinion.

I'm no fan of class warfare and have no love for those who cry it's not fair either. But corporations are not innocent in this. For years, they have used the excuse that "it's hard to do business here" and exploited it by outsourcing, downsizing, and just not growing as a company…which in effect, doesn't grow our economy. We should all strive to be wealthy but not get there by making it impossible for other people to move ahead…that doesn't mean make it easy; just don't make it impossible. And hiring an employee on hourly basis with no guarantee he is coming back tomorrow and expecting him to work as many hours as you see fit without any incentive is not right.
 
Nobody chooses to temp for as long as people are temping these days. Independent contractors are just an excuse for a business to not pay insurance or social security on an employee. No company is required to keep employees at minimum wage either. If you have the means to do so, then you can pay that person more. I do agree that "that is life in the corporate world" but I don't find it acceptable. Those same corporations get huge tax breaks and subsidies whenever they threaten to leave an area. If you support that they can take all the money was some don't get livable wages, then you support greed.

I support companies staying in business and as long as they aren't breaking any laws doing it then :thumbsup2
I also support anyone bettering their position themself. If they don't like seeing John Smith run a the company they work for and get paid a million to do it, then go to college get yourself a higher degree and become a CEO of your own company. Cry your river somewhere else........ We all have the same opportunity to become successful, we don't need to watch others do it and call them greedy and uncaring because they did and we didn't.
 
Everyone is greedy, the issue seems to be that some feel anyone with more than X amount in their bank account is evil for being so. I personally don't subscribe to that belief.

Good to hear, but you saw it a few months ago when billionaires were freaking out about teachers making $60,000 a year.
 
Everyone is greedy, the issue seems to be that some feel anyone with more than X amount in their bank account is evil for being so. I personally don't subscribe to that belief.

I don't either. More power to people who do well for themselves; however, I do agree with the other posters that say some go to far. As stated above, many corporations do get huge "local" tax breaks and incentives to hire workers as well as all sorts of other write offs. I do believe that employers who have a thriving business owe just a tad bit more to an employee than a "just a job." It's fine that we can say the Hostess workers were low-skilled, low income folks or that folks in these types of jobs don't deserve much. That's also a bit of a misconception. Working in a plant, food line, assembly line, almost always takes some sort of skills/smarts to run the equipment, troubleshoot the equipment, and just be safe on the equipment.

Corporations have been "lucky" in this economy that people are far more desparate and are willing to work jobs that don't pay for their skill sets. I think the economic downturn, coupled with the lack of worker protections, have made employees easy prey for greedy corporations. I think you can be rich AND have a conscience.
 
No genius, that's not the case. There are plenty of business owners who realize they have to treat their employees well in order to sleep at night and run a successful business. I worked for a man who dipped into his own personal savings account to cover salaries when times were hard (and the company did come through).

If you honestly think it's okay for someone to pull in millions as a CEO while the lowest paid employee is paid minimum wage, has temporary or "independent contractor" status, doesn't get any benefits or rights as a worker, then you need to grow a conscience. That IS greed.

You seem so fixated on the Corporate Greed angle. I suspect you want to regulate salaries and earnings. I do wonder whether you own or have ever owned a business as perhaps you would have some perspective before rushing to the Corporate Greed excuse.

The end result here is that the company was failing on every level and for multiple reasons was unable to compete. Existing or new companies will fill the void.
 
See, that's the problem with how we all think. If we were truly honest with ourselves, we would admit that everyone out there really is "greedy" because everyone out there wants to turn a profit or make more money. If you honestly disagree, ask yourself if you are willing to make enough money to pay rent (not mortgage because there is no need to own if you aren't investing or wanting to turn a profit) and bills. And by bills, I mean electricity and water; cable and phone are just excessive and not required to live. See, everyone is "greedy" to some extent. There's really nothing wrong with that, either. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have money to buy yourself the luxuries in life. The problem is, people like to point the finger at how certain people are greedy, all the while ignoring their own greed. For example, I have a friend who complains about businesses hiring outside the country and how they do it because it is cheaper for them and that is wrong and greedy. I asked him if he would be willing to absorb some of the additional cost that the businesses would acquire by moving their companies back to the USA. He said absolutely not. He does not want the prices to go up because he spends enough money as is. The company owner should absorb all the cost. The owner pushing the cost down to the American people can be considered greedy, but so can the American consumer who says that he shouldn't have to pay more.


Point is, everyone out there wants to make money.

^^^:thumbsup2 We choose to buy the cheap Chinese product instead of paying more for the domestically made item, and then stand back and call the company the bad guy for not hiring American workers. Hypocrisy at its finest.
 
I don't either. More power to people who do well for themselves; however, I do agree with the other posters that say some go to far. As stated above, many corporations do get huge "local" tax breaks and incentives to hire workers as well as all sorts of other write offs. I do believe that employers who have a thriving business owe just a tad bit more to an employee than a "just a job." It's fine that we can say the Hostess workers were low-skilled, low income folks or that folks in these types of jobs don't deserve much. That's also a bit of a misconception. Working in a plant, food line, assembly line, almost always takes some sort of skills/smarts to run the equipment, troubleshoot the equipment, and just be safe on the equipment.

Corporations have been "lucky" in this economy that people are far more desparate and are willing to work jobs that don't pay for their skill sets. I think the economic downturn, coupled with the lack of worker protections, have made employees easy prey for greedy corporations. I think you can be rich AND have a conscience.

:thumbsup2
 
Anyone else notice the humor in us debating about large corporate companies that are out to make money and the lower level workers who are paid very little all while on a message board dedicated to people who absolutely love Walt Disney World?:lmao:
 
Nobody chooses to temp for as long as people are temping these days.

100% WRONG. I know many people who do this and would not take a full time job.


Independent contractors are just an excuse for a business to not pay insurance or social security on an employee.

The Independent contractor is getting paid by a 1099. There are tax advantages to doing this. I won't bother to educate you on them as you seem to know everything.

No company is required to keep employees at minimum wage either. If you have the means to do so, then you can pay that person more.

True. I worked for a union that decided if and how much more I could make. I made more by leaving the union.

I do agree that "that is life in the corporate world" but I don't find it acceptable.

I agree that executive pay and pay structure needs to be changed. It is just as outdated as the union model.

Those same corporations get huge tax breaks and subsidies whenever they threaten to leave an area. If you support that they can take all the money was some don't get livable wages, then you support greed.

I have lived where those threats were made and the breaks and subsidies not accepted. Guess what happen...............the company did leave.
 
I support companies staying in business and as long as they aren't breaking any laws doing it then :thumbsup2
I also support anyone bettering their position themself. If they don't like seeing John Smith run a the company they work for and get paid a million to do it, then go to college get yourself a higher degree and become a CEO of your own company. Cry your river somewhere else........ We all have the same opportunity to become successful, we don't need to watch others do it and call them greedy and uncaring because they did and we didn't.

Who said anyone is watching? There are plenty of business owners that do take pride in how they run their company and treat their employees. Why is it "crying a river" because people find companies that treat employees like dirt despicable? Are you okay with that?
 
^^^:thumbsup2 We choose to buy the cheap Chinese product instead of paying more for the domestically made item, and then stand back and call the company the bad guy for not hiring American workers. Hypocrisy at its finest.

:thumbsup2

Demand will always affect supply more than the other way around when it comes to consumer goods. If the American public refused to buy cheap imported goods and those goods sat unsold on shelves while the higher priced American made goods next to them flew off in record numbers those are the goods that would be supplied.

There are certain items I gladly pay more for because they are locally made and others that I don't care and want the cheapest item I can get. It just depends on what it is I'm buying but in the end I am the one who is control of that choice, the corporations are just responding to it.

And again since it keeps coming up, the executives are not the business owners of publicly traded companies unless they are personally the majority share holder. Many have some stock so they are part owners just as many of us are if we have their stock or a 401K containing it.
 

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