High operating costs will kill FP+

[lugnut33]

There are pieces that they should be using technology to improve guest experience. I should be able to tell when the next bus to AK is going to show up at my hotel, and same thing how long a wait I have before a bus shows up for me to go back to the hotel. Do I have 10 minutes to get from the park entrance to the bus-stop or 2? THAT would make my stay better.

They actually do have that implemented at Animal Kingdom Lodge - Kidani Village and it was very convenient. They had bus arrival times listed on a screen at the bus stop. I've got a photo of it if you desperately want to see it.

 

[HopperFan]

I'm glad to see that the OP at least modified the post from the other thread to recognize that FP+ is just one portion of the whole MM+/Next Gen product.

Unless someone can correct me with more reliable information, I have been under the impression that the $1-2 billion dollars that Disney has spent on this covers a lot more than just replacing paper FP with FP+. I have thought that it also covered changes and upgrades to all of the systems that affect the customer experience (resort reservations, dining reservations, ticketing, entrance operations, DVC operations, Magical Express, Photopass, etc, etc) and allowing these systems to communicate with each other so that guests and guest relations representatives could view a guest's entire agenda in one spot, which on the customer end is in the form of My Disney Experience. A significant part of this project is the conversion from magnetic stripe media for things like tickets and room cards to the RFID chip which is by all accounts more secure and durable. But, that conversion, which includes changes to readers on thousands of resort room doors, park entrances, and point of sale locations doesn't come cheap. If it were cheap and easy, credit card issuers in the US would have already converted to RFID but, as it is, that conversion is coming very slowly. This whole thing is nowhere near as simple as Disney deciding whether to spend $1-2 billion dollars on FP+ or adding a few new attractions to the parks.

With respect to the predicted demise of the FP+ component of MM+, I don't think that will happen unless Disney decides to scrap the idea of FP altogether. I certainly don't see them going back to distributing FPs only through machines located at ride entrances that distribute paper tickets for whatever time is currently available. I suppose they could consider eliminating all advance FP reservations and going back to the first come first served system of paper FP (but doing it through magic bands instead of paper spitting machines). But, I'm betting that won't happen.

The fact that a lot of guests seem to be having trouble getting the hang of FP+ doesn't mean that paper FP was any easier for first time or infrequent guests. Paper FP was around for the better part of 15 years, and yet Disney has said (and I have no reason to doubt them) that only 50% of all guests used the system at all, meaning that the other 50% either didn't know they could use it, didn't know how to use it, or had a hard time figuring out how to fit it into their touring plans. That allowed the minority that really knew how to use the system to grab the lion's share of the FPs issued. It's that minority that now seems to have become the most vocal critics of FP+.

I firmly believe that no matter what system is in place, a certain percentage of first time or infrequent guests are going to have a hard time understanding it, especially those who don't do any research or planning in advance (no matter how much information Disney feeds them in advance of their trip). Disney's goal has to be to try to reduce that percentage as much as possible because they are never going to eliminate it.

I agree with this and to add my own comments...

- Several times there have been references to all the CMs necessary to work the FP+ Kiosks. The numbers of Kiosk CMs are probably much smaller than the numbers that were needed to run the legacy FP kiosks. They were at every single attraction that had FP. Now they are at a few designated locations in each park. No comparison.

- DH is in Global IT and his company does business at the WDW property and they have many people there as guests. They have been doing informal polls of the guests regarding MB and FP etc. It has been very interesting - there is one common factor when you look at those who don't like it and have difficulty with it, and those who love it. Age. Those who are more in the 40's plus range have problems with it. Those who are under 40 love it and can't wait for it to do more. I think that Disney knows that it has a guest dynamic that may never get it and will always struggle with the technology but they are looking to the future and the future guests are very tech savvy. That is their market.

- I don't think it's going anywhere, it's only going to grow in what it does. One of the items not listed as a cost of implementing is all the active RFID readers going in the parks. Am sure they haven't even begun to install a fraction of them yet. They track you down in BOG and deliver your food - imagine all the things they could do everywhere else in the park.

Did they bite off a lot at once? Yes. I think they decided let's just rip off the band-aid and do it. They knew it would hurt for a while. They knew they may loose some. But I think they will remain focused on the plan, bumps and all.

 

[Suvadoo]

They actually do have that implemented at Animal Kingdom Lodge - Kidani Village and it was very convenient. They had bus arrival times listed on a screen at the bus stop. I've got a photo of it if you desperately want to see it.

Here's the big question: Was it accurate?

 

[jtowntoflorida]

Wasn't there a quick option that let Disney pick all of you FP for you?

Sure. But I didn't want to ride 7DMT at 9:30 at night, or have hours gaps between FPs, or have all of them scheduled at the end the day, thus precluding me for getting any more than 3 in a day. Their options weren't optimized to how I want to spend my day and so required a lot of tweaking. A FP+ is of no value to me if it doesn't fall when I want it to and the options that were offered were nonsensical to me.

 

[sndral]

"But the MyMagic+ proposition was a big upfront investment in technology with a number of very crystal- clear goals: Enhance the planning process, get our guests to plan their activities at Walt Disney World up front. Orlando --- Walt Disney World is a big property, with lots of things to do, but Orlando is a very competitive space. When people go down to Orlando, there are many distractions from the products we offer that are other offers in that market and we know that when people plan at home, they plan more time with us than if they come down to Orlando unplanned."

"So the number one goal was to basically get them to plan up-front and I'm happy to say that I think 50% now of all guests that come down are using the MyMagic+ planning tools...So the number one goal was to basically get them to plan up-front and I'm happy to say that I think 50% now of all guests that come down are using the MyMagic+ planning tools that, by the way, not only helps us but helps them a great deal, enhances their vacations enormously, allows them to book attraction times of their favorite things, allows them to really get a clear view of the offer, how they can most efficiently spend their time."

With the bolded part, I think they are counting on higher guest turnover. I think they do want you to do your 3 rides, eat, shop, and then leave, so there's room (and presumably higher guest satisfaction due to lower crowds) for other guests to come in and do their 3 rides. With a higher turnover, but each guest spending less time overall in the parks, they'll increase ticket sales without having to increase capacity. I don't think they want guests in the parks from RD-close. I think they want them in for 5-hours, max.

"So the guest satisfaction ratings, which are the ultimate driver of our future success and our future business, are also incredibly high with like 90% of the people rating the experience in the top two boxes, which doesn't happen very often."

I think this is where the "are they asking skewed questions" comes in.

What does the "top two boxes" mean? 2 out of 3? 2 out of 10? Satisfaction with what? Sounds like classic politicians mumbo jumbo.
I have two thoughts (well, I have lots of thoughts, but 2 that I want to share)
regarding this quote "[a]llows them to really get a clear view of the offer, how they can most efficiently spend their time."
The clear view of the offer is that you can only ride 3 headliners in MK and only one each in Epcot & DHS - if that's all I can accomplish why not jam it into 3 days and then scoot on over to those other attractions that Orlando offers, thus defeating the stated purpose? It just seems to me that Disney has highlighted just how content poor their capacity is and thus enabled guests to efficiently plan less time with them and more time elsewhere.
Regarding forcing guests to be more 'efficient' many, myself included, have a finite tolerance for keeping appointments while on vacation. Throw in the frustration of being unable to keep these appointments due to the grossly inefficient Disney 'system' and you have predictably upset guests.
Ex.s - heading over to your FP+ for A&E but the bus took 2 hours (wait time plus other unscheduled stops time plus extra long stop time, etc.) and you miss that appointment thanks to Disney.
Have a 6 pm ADR, but the FP line for TSM took 55 minutes thanks to some random FP+ only test or breakdown and you're late for your ADR and assessed $10 per person no show fee?
Had a 6 pm ADR @ Ohana and a 9 pm FP+ for 7DMT but Ohana took 1 hr. to seat you and the service was slow then the monorail had an issue and you missed your FP+ for 7DMT.
These are all real issues that we've all dealt with and throwing one more set of appointments into the mix will just make it worse. Hard to expect your guests to be more efficient when you make it impossible to timely arrive for all of those appointments.
The suits need to climb out of their ivory tower and put boots on the ground and try to keep all of these 'appointments' before they arrogantly spout off about forcing their guests to be more efficient.

 

[FlipHipster]

Wasn't there a quick option that let Disney pick all of you FP for you?



I saw a board like this at the main stop at POR, but we didn't have one at POFQ and neither did any of the other POR stops.

I think this is what they are shooting for. If you read the patents, it's all about letting the Guest Experience Engine pick your itinerary based on a bunch of business rules they setup. If everyone was on the system and letting Disney plan out your days for you it would probably work very well. Sorta like moving material and inventory through a production line

 

[RSWA2]

Any type of technology improvement will take time to iron out bugs and any issues. Any major change, in this case this involves hardware and software, included client side (the website, the kiosks, magic bands, Mickey readers, etc) and the server side (the web app server, database server, storage, backups, etc) all the communication infrastructure and customer support for both clients and Disney employees, will take years to run smoothly.

Most major products that have a client base 1/100th of Disney's takes at least 2 years to iron out issues. Now this doesn't grow linearly, so this won't take like 200 years, but the issues will compound and build.

Also most automated systems do aim to reduce some type of cost. Yeah they may have to hire more IT workers now, but I'm going to guess most of them are contracted or hired through an agency that specializes in IT work. Disney will have some new long term tech employees (programmers to code minor changes) and IT (to support it), but most of the workers hired during this rollout phase will be contracted employees. It's just cheaper to do it this way.

Also fixing the few servers that house the database information regarding your FP+ will be cheaper than maintaining the hundreds of paper fast pass machines.

Look at your email 10 years ago, if you use Gmail, you will recall that it was invite only. Look at disboards 10 years ago. I don't think it will take 10 years for Disney to fix the issues, but even in 1 year there has been a lot of improvement, so I think it'll take about 3-5 years for most issues to iron out. I think issues that will still remain will be issues related to linking friends and families, specifically related to fastpasses and memory maker, etc. The reason I think those will remain is that accounts that are created by clients and tried to link by clients don't also work the way the clients think they will. The only way the accounts will always work and be linked is for Disney to create them for you, but that'll never happen.

Source: Worked in IT and engineering for over 18 years with multiple project rollouts reaching 30k+ customers (small compared to Disney)

 

[jtowntoflorida]

I think Disney decided that the paper FP system wasn't providing a benefit to a high enough percentage of their guests and they are trying something else. If they decide that that something else is too expensive to run on an ongoing basis, I have no doubt that they will replace it. But I don't think it's ever going back to something that works like paper FP did.

No, according to what Rasulo said, FP+ was intended to lock people in to a Disney vacation. Paper FPs couldn't do that when the only option to get one was to go into the park. Any guest benefit is an incremental side-effect of FP+, not the point of it. Rasulo said it himself; that isn't just me speculating.

 

[lugnut33]

Here's the big question: Was it accurate?

Yes it was accurate and I appreciated being able to see it.

 

[Suvadoo]

- Several times there have been references to all the CMs necessary to work the FP+ Kiosks. The numbers of Kiosk CMs are probably much smaller than the numbers that were needed to run the legacy FP kiosks. They were at every single attraction that had FP. Now they are at a few designated locations in each park. No comparison.

I disagree with your assertion, only because there weren't that many legacy FP attractions. When Disney implemented FP+, they added a boatload of attractions to the list.

With FP+ there are additional CM's with ipads at the entrance turnstyles to help with MB glitches, at the ride entances, and at the FP+ kiosks. This is a lot of additional employees.

 

[wisblue]

No, according to what Rasulo said, FP+ was intended to lock people in to a Disney vacation. Paper FPs couldn't do that when the only option to get one was to go into the park. Any guest benefit is an incremental side-effect of FP+, not the point of it. Rasulo said it himself; that isn't just me speculating.

I understand that, but if FP+ in its current form proves to be so expensive to operate and alienates enough guests that it negates the benefit of locked in visits, they'll have to do something else. I just don't think that something would be a return to something like paper FP. They know that that doesn't produce a result they like.

 

[jtowntoflorida]

I understand that, but if FP+ in its current form proves to be so expensive to operate and alienates enough guests that it negates the benefit of locked in visits, they'll have to do something else. I just don't think that something would be a return to something like paper FP. They know that that doesn't produce a result they like.

We are in total agreement--they're not going to go back to a FP system that doesn't have a pre-booking option. They're all-in on that aspect of MyMagic+. That has been their whole justification this entire time for the expense of the system...they're not going to abandon it.

What I can see is the user interface becoming easier and less frustrating to use. I can foresee them offering two options--We Pick For You, or You Pick For Yourself, with a better interface for picking times/rides one at a time if that's what the guest wants to do. Being able to see availability for any given ride would be so much more user-friendly for guests than the current shoot then aim system they have now.

 

[wisblue]

With FP+ there are additional CM's with ipads at the entrance turnstyles to help with MB glitches, at the ride entances, and at the FP+ kiosks. This is a lot of additional employees.

There were always extra CMs at park entrances to deal with guests who had problems getting past the turnstiles.

Presumably Disney knows if there are more or less of those problems with MB and RFID cards than there were with magnetic stripes, but my experience has been much better with RFID. It seems like the magnetic stripe on the cards would wear down over time and that it would have a problem confirming my finger scan. If I made a second trip with the same ticket, I would often have to go to Guest Relations to get a replacement card because the stripe was worn down. Once, my card was rejected at a paper FP machine just minutes after I had used it to enter the park. In dozens of gate entries with RFID since April of 2013, I have only gotten a blue Mickey once, and that was resolved immediately with a second try.

 

[Suvadoo]

Any type of technology improvement will take time to iron out bugs and any issues. Any major change, in this case this involves hardware and software, included client side (the website, the kiosks, magic bands, Mickey readers, etc) and the server side (the web app server, database server, storage, backups, etc) all the communication infrastructure and customer support for both clients and Disney employees, will take years to run smoothly.

Most major products that have a client base 1/100th of Disney's takes at least 2 years to iron out issues. Now this doesn't grow linearly, so this won't take like 200 years, but the issues will compound and build.

Also most automated systems do aim to reduce some type of cost. Yeah they may have to hire more IT workers now, but I'm going to guess most of them are contracted or hired through an agency that specializes in IT work. Disney will have some new long term tech employees (programmers to code minor changes) and IT (to support it), but most of the workers hired during this rollout phase will be contracted employees. It's just cheaper to do it this way.

Also fixing the few servers that house the database information regarding your FP+ will be cheaper than maintaining the hundreds of paper fast pass machines.

Look at your email 10 years ago, if you use Gmail, you will recall that it was invite only. Look at disboards 10 years ago. I don't think it will take 10 years for Disney to fix the issues, but even in 1 year there has been a lot of improvement, so I think it'll take about 3-5 years for most issues to iron out. I think issues that will still remain will be issues related to linking friends and families, specifically related to fastpasses and memory maker, etc. The reason I think those will remain is that accounts that are created by clients and tried to link by clients don't also work the way the clients think they will. The only way the accounts will always work and be linked is for Disney to create them for you, but that'll never happen.

Source: Worked in IT and engineering for over 18 years with multiple project rollouts reaching 30k+ customers (small compared to Disney)

But most software changes are implemented by the companies "we" work for and "we" have no choice but to accept implementations. Disney, however, is a vacation destination and most guests are not interested in waiting another 3-5 years for the issues to be ironed out.

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

If its about money-why not just sell some % of FP+ as a 4th?

 

[wisblue]

But most software changes are implemented by the companies "we" work for and "we" have no choice but to accept implementations. Disney, however, is a vacation destination and most guests are not interested in waiting another 3-5 years for the issues to be ironed out.

That begs the question of how many guests are affected by or bothered by any of the issues.

If you are a first time guest who follows instructions from Disney to book FPs in advance, doesn't bother with trying to make changes to FPs in the parks, and has no issues at all with the MBs working for park or room entry or making charges, you might well think that the whole MM+ thing is the greatest thing you've ever seen.

Yes, we hear on these boards about some guests who have had undeniably horrible experiences. But, there have been guests with horrible experiences at Disney long before any of the MM+ things came along. As I mentioned above I have had to visit guest relations (and wait in line for assistance) because the magnetic stripe on my card wore down, and have had issues at hotels (not Disney resorts) when the key cards I received declined to open my room door.

I really don't know if the problems with MM+ are more frequent or more serious than they ever were.

 

[wisblue]

If its about money-why not just sell some % of FP+ as a 4th?

The ability to do that would be severely limited by ride capacity and would almost certainly not produce as much revenue as enticing guests to spend several days at WDW, preferably at a Disney owned resort.

 

[11290]

With FP+ there are additional CM's with ipads at the entrance turnstyles to help with MB glitches, at the ride entances, and at the FP+ kiosks. This is a lot of additional employees.

There were always extra CMs at park entrances to deal with guests who had problems getting past the turnstiles.

To the first: The majority of the Kiosk CM's have come from other department within the parks and are not "additional", somewhat resulting in some areas working "shorthanded".

To the second: In the 6 years I've worked at MK, including Main Entrance, there have not been "extra CM's" to deal with Guest problems. If a guest ticket didn't work with the legacy turnstiles, we either had to work on it ourselves or have someone else "cover" our position and walk their ticket to the podium to get it fixed.

Just my $.02

 

[Cyrano]

Moving to TP Community as this does not relate to trip planning

 

[Suvadoo]

I understand that, but if FP+ in its current form proves to be so expensive to operate and alienates enough guests that it negates the benefit of locked in visits, they'll have to do something else. I just don't think that something would be a return to something like paper FP. They know that that doesn't produce a result they like.

I don't think legacy FP will return, but I don't think it will be removed from DLR. I also think Disney would've been wiser by charging more for their tickets and reducing overall themepark maximum capacity. I truly believe guests would pay more for a less crowded theme park exprerience. Additionally, Disney would've been able to "lock" guests into their parks because their tickets would propably sell out ahead of time.
I also think they could turn MK into a 24 hour/day operation for 1 or 2 days a week and this would alleviate some of the crowding.