High iincrease in annual dues.

[Daitcher]

This may or may not create a firestorm of debate but it really isn't intended to. It is just my observations and could be way off base from others perspectives. Doc couldn't be more on the money with all of his posts on this thread. The fact that anyone can claim they are better off paying cash rates versus the cost of annual dues for onsite properties is ludicrous. Why all the debate and the OP feeling they are owed an explanation for increases in dues? My take is this: There are far too many people buying timeshares that cannot afford it. I have noticed over the years a lower class of guest at timeshare properties. I am not just talking DVC I am talking other timeshares as well that we've stayed at. The timeshare industry has made financing way too easy and make it seem all too affordable. This leads to many lower middle class families buying timeshares they cannot afford. Many people are not prepared for the yearly increases in dues or the annual outlay of cash it takes just to go on vacation (airfare, rental car, food, entertainment, etc.). It seems everyone you meet these days owns some type of timeshare. Timeshares to me are a luxury purchase for those with disposable income, at least they should be anyway. Buying one just because "you can afford the monthly payments" is not wise. Sorry if anyone is offended by this. This is just my take. $100 increases are the norm and shouldn't make or break a timeshare owner's budget. The posters who believe they can do better on cash or cannot or are unwilling to deal with increased dues should consider selling. It is just how things work with all timeshares. Try purchasing a vacation property. See what your maintenance fees are. Watch them go up each and every year. Thanks for all the thoughts, it is quite interesting to hear all the different perspectives on this.


DAVE

 

[Tiger926]

Daitcher - Not sure why you've decided to make this a class debate if only to show everyone that since you weren't bothered by the increase that you must be of the high class luxury set that timeshares were intended for!

Sorry, but I disagree that we shouldn't be questioning why prices have gone up - most of the wealthy people I know are that way because they work hard and they question all of their finances all of the time - that is what responsible and educated people do. None of us said we couldn't now afford our DVC because of a $100.00 increase, but we still have the right to question it. It's very advantageous for us to be discussing tax laws and the like since we all made very large purchases by buying into DVC. My original point still stands and I of course know that webmasterDoc is the expert in this area (that is why we are discussing this here and asking for clarification) - I as a member don't like the constant underestimating of taxes, period. Perhaps it's unavoidable, perhaps not, but we all should be discussing this in order to better understand how our DVC works. Based on your post you must have a lot of disposable income and therefore the increase doesn't bother you, and that's fine, but realistically, most members should be questioning these things as it's a sign of responsibility and intelligience.

I guess by your line of reasoning, Disney chould raise your dues to 10.00 a point next year and you wouldn't care since you are of the high income set that timeshares/vacation clubs were designed for, sorry to say, but you may not have as much disposable income for too much longer with that attitude. One last thing, all of the people I know who share your attitude are actually poor working class people who are afraid to question any financial stuff at all, hence the fact why they are always struggling to make ends meet. All of us who are financially sound do question and question often! By the way, my husband's a banker and his biggest debt customers are high income earners who have no clue about finances period - they don't question as you just pointed out when they have extra charges on credit cards, don't question why dues or membership fees have risen because they figure that's the way it is (as you so eloquently pointed out).

Thanks Doc for your explanations, Tiger

 

[J and R's mom]

Have just received our annual dues statement and there is an increase of nearly $100. This has never been advised to us and wonder if anyone has any idea what this is for.
Brenda

I first saw our dues statement on-line yesterday and was SHOCKED at first (we haven't received our bill in the mail yet). Being the high school math teacher that I am, I compared last years dues and this years dues (by printing out the statements from the dvc memeber website).

Here's what I found (FWIW--I own 150pts at SSR):

Total paid last year--$525.12 ($3.50/pt)
Total paid this year--$645.86 ($4.31/pt)
A difference of $120.74 (YIKES)

BUT, that math doesn't give the ENTIRE picture.

Last year's dues were actually $3.8259/pt but we received a credit of $48.77 for DVC OVERestimating the previous year's taxes. That's why our dues seemed so low last year and the per point cost above was lower than the actual.

This year our dues are $3.9802/pt but we have to pay an additional $48.82 for DVC UNDERestimating last year's taxes which is why the per point cost above appears higher than the actual.

So basically last year's credit and this year's extra charge make it a wash (except for $0.05) at SSR. Maybe that creative accounting is a little too coincidental, who knows?

However, if you take last year's dues of $3.83/pt and increase it to $3.98/pt, the difference is only $23.15 (for 150pts at SSR) which isn't so bad. Where the SHOCKER can come in (either in a good way like last year with a credit or a bad way like this year with an extra charge) is with those darn unpredictable property taxes.

 

[Tiger926]

Again, can someone explain to me how you are calculating dues at $3.98 when I see them at $4.23? What have I done wrong?

Tiger

 

[J and R's mom]

Again, can someone explain to me how you are calculating dues at $3.98 when I see them at $4.23? What have I done wrong?

Tiger

I'll give it a shot. I'm using the statement from the DVC website for SSR.

SSR 2006 Capital Reserves Budget .6181
SSR 2006 Operating Expense 2.5120
SSR 2006 Estimated Property Tax .8501
(All three above added together) Total 3.9802

I'm not sure where the other .25 is coming from on your figure above.

 

[Tiger926]

Thanks so much - I went back to check my statement and noticed that I added 2005 taxes instead of 2006, so now I see how dues are $3.98. Sorry about that! But this confuses me even more know as that means there was only a .15 per point increase, but our dues went up by $140.59 due to a tax credit last year, and an underpayment this year. I guess my question is, is this a fair way to compare dues? If we just take last year's dues, and subtract from this year's dues, it comes out to way more than .15 per point - so for the future, how do we best compare?

Tiger

 

[RayJay]

I have noticed over the years a lower class of guest at timeshare properties. This leads to many lower middle class families buying timeshares they cannot afford. The posters who believe they can do better on cash or cannot or are unwilling to deal with increased dues should consider selling.

I'm the loud fat guy that you'll see by the pool yelling at my kids not to pee in the pool. I'm also the one who farts in the hottub while in it cause of my
lower class statue. I did sell my DVC, but will rent from DVC's cause it is cheaper and I have no dues, and I'm not in debt up to my eyeballs cause
your right, I can't afford it.

If I were rich, then I could own DVC and maybe be sophisticated like you.

No, I'm just a middle/lower class slob.

RayJay

 

[RayJay]

For those of us who have owned for awhile, the original expenditure may have already been recouped and we can certainly stay for only the amount of our annual fees.

That's what I thought you meant, once initial cost is paid DVC is very
worthwhile. I just couldn't get there, now I could easily afford it, even the
payments, I just got sick of the burden of oweing people.

Which really means, if you gotta borrow $25,000 for a timeshare then it's
not exactly smart, dosen't make you a lower class person as one previous poster suggested.

RayJay

 

[RayJay]

If you "own" DVC, by that I mean no payments to principal, only dues, then cash rates are MUCH higher.

Ex: 375 points (HHI and BWV)= ~$1700+dues/year.

Our vacations this year:
Based on Cash Ressies on the Disney website:
5 nights BWV studio in April: $415x5nights=$2075
6 nights BWV 2BR (BW view) in June= $715x6= $4290
4 nights HHI 1 BR in July= ~ $350x4= $1400

Now, this is NOT including tax, so lets' add it up;

Total price: $7765
Total Price with tax: ~ 10%: $776
$8541

So, for $1740 for 15 nights=$116/nite, if you find a better deal than that for THOSE accomodiations, let me know.

Also: some people say rack rate is too high, OK, then subtract the taxes above, and $7765 for 15 nights (that is a good discount I feel).

ONE MORE THING: IF you itemize your taxes, you can claim a portion of the dues, so it would be less than the $1700 quoted above. I would HOLD UP on selling those points. I too am a "cash" person, as I have no CC, but I love my DVC... Maybe you ought to revaluate your situation....

HTH
DeerH

So where did the $30,000 plus interest come from to purchase your initial properties. If your rich, good for you.

I choose not to borrow it, so consider me re-evaluated, I'm spending $1500 cash to stay for 10 days including (fri and sat nights) this June cash. Only thing I can see is it's not a 1 bedroom.

Peace

 

[Daitcher]

Daitcher - Not sure why you've decided to make this a class debate if only to show everyone that since you weren't bothered by the increase that you must be of the high class luxury set that timeshares were intended for!

Sorry, but I disagree that we shouldn't be questioning why prices have gone up - most of the wealthy people I know are that way because they work hard and they question all of their finances all of the time - that is what responsible and educated people do. None of us said we couldn't now afford our DVC because of a $100.00 increase, but we still have the right to question it. It's very advantageous for us to be discussing tax laws and the like since we all made very large purchases by buying into DVC. My original point still stands and I of course know that webmasterDoc is the expert in this area (that is why we are discussing this here and asking for clarification) - I as a member don't like the constant underestimating of taxes, period. Perhaps it's unavoidable, perhaps not, but we all should be discussing this in order to better understand how our DVC works. Based on your post you must have a lot of disposable income and therefore the increase doesn't bother you, and that's fine, but realistically, most members should be questioning these things as it's a sign of responsibility and intelligience.

I guess by your line of reasoning, Disney chould raise your dues to 10.00 a point next year and you wouldn't care since you are of the high income set that timeshares/vacation clubs were designed for, sorry to say, but you may not have as much disposable income for too much longer with that attitude. One last thing, all of the people I know who share your attitude are actually poor working class people who are afraid to question any financial stuff at all, hence the fact why they are always struggling to make ends meet. All of us who are financially sound do question and question often! By the way, my husband's a banker and his biggest debt customers are high income earners who have no clue about finances period - they don't question as you just pointed out when they have extra charges on credit cards, don't question why dues or membership fees have risen because they figure that's the way it is (as you so eloquently pointed out).

Thanks Doc for your explanations, Tiger

I had a feeling some might react this way. I am not acting like I don't care about increases. It is just that I did enough research to know that increases can and do happen. Someone acting surprised by it is surprising to me. I am also surprised your banker husband can't explain these things to you. Assuming I am not on top of my finances is your mistake. Annual dues are not a slush fund for DVC. They are operating budgets set by law. If you choose to believe DVC is fleecing its owners that is your choice. I trust the numbers and DVC to not risk there entire operation on a few inflated numbers. Taxes are estimated all the time and Doc has explained sometimes it is under sometimes it is over. As for my comments about timeshares becoming to much for the masses, I stand behind that 100%. Others have noticed it as well they just are too afraid of the flaming here to mention it. It doesn't make me better that I can afford timeshares or other luxury purchases it just makes me very fortunate.


DAVE

 

[RayJay]

It doesn't make me better that I can afford timeshares or other luxury purchases it just makes me very fortunate.

Nobody is saying you aren't fortunate to have luxury purchases, great for you, and I have plenty myself. It's how you stereotyped the middle/lower class, if I was a millionaire (I'm not) I wouldn't do it. I've got a very healthy income and still have sold my DVC. Why? Cause I hate the dues and the initial cost is high (JMO), there are plenty of well to do folk who fall into this category.

RayJay

 

[Daitcher]

I'm the loud fat guy that you'll see by the pool yelling at my kids not to pee in the pool. I'm also the one who farts in the hottub while in it cause of my
lower class statue. I did sell my DVC, but will rent from DVC's cause it is cheaper and I have no dues, and I'm not in debt up to my eyeballs cause
your right, I can't afford it.

If I were rich, then I could own DVC and maybe be sophisticated like you.

No, I'm just a middle/lower class slob.

RayJay

Seems I struck a nerve with you on this one. Sorry but I stand behind my statements. Renting may be better off for you. You are actually doing things the right way and you will get ahead. There are too many people going into debt buying timeshares they can't afford. It is not all there fault, the timeshare industry is helping them right along. Even DVC which isn't pushy in the least aids the problem by not reporting DVC purchases to credit bureaus. I never said I was sophisticated, I just spend within my means and don't gripe and complain about increasing dues. DVC isn't fleecing its members, of that I am sure. I'll just continue to enjoy my many years of vacations while other members look for ways DVC is trying to stick it to them.
I think the vast majority of people on these boards accept increasing dues and went into the purchase knowing it was very likely. Sure it would be nice if they never went up. Would be nice if my taxes didn't go also. We both know that isn't going to happen. Happy travels to you in the future.

DAVE

 

[Tiger926]

Sorry, but your tone implied otherwise. I think you meant exactly what you said. If you want to discuss whether people can really afford timeshares/vacation clubs, then we should discuss whether anyone can afford anything as my hubby is successful at his job because everyone needs car loans, school loans, mortgages, etc. Now a vacation club is not a necessity like a house is, but using your logic, no one should buy anything unless they have the cash for it, and that's not realisitic. My hubby and I are in the minority as we pay cash for our cars (just purchased our 1st van using payments as we got an incredible deal) - no one does that anymore. Sure, paying cash for DVC is very smart, but some of us may have to finance a few years as the interest (we pay hardly any interest it is one of my hubby's job benefits) we may pay will far outweigh the increase in room rates each and every year until we could afford DVC in cash.

My banker hubby has given me a great education about finances, but I didn't need much as my parents did a great job - haven't had a mortgage in over 28 years! Just because we question the increase doesn't mean we haven't researched and are uneducated about our purchase. Again, I'll stand by my ascertation that the increase seems high to us, even my banker hubby who sees this kind of stuff everyday thought it seemed high this year. Did it surprise him or I? No, but we still have a right to question it considering what was presented to us by our guide and from what I've read on here, many guides are using the dues as a selling point. Sure, we know dues are going to increase as most everything does in life, but the over/underestimation of taxes is a bit suspect, IMHO (haven't talked to my hubby about it yet). Maybe there is no other way around the over and underestimation of taxes (it doesn't really happen where I live), but the way it's calculated is important - presentation is everything, and that's the problem, IMHO.

You are entitled to your opinion, but your class comments were ignorant and I believe that you had other intentions behind your remarks than those that you've presented.

Tiger

 

[athenna]

I can't believe this has turned into an upper class/lower class debate. Sickening.

 

[RayJay]

I can't believe this has turned into an upper class/lower class debate. Sickening.

I will agree it got off base and that is why I believe we pretty much ended it.

RayJay

 

[deerh]

By:rayjaySo where did the $30,000 plus interest come from to purchase your initial properties. If your rich, good for you.

I am/did finance this purchase, and did not include it, because in 1 year, I will have it paid off, and then you can use my caluculations based on dues only.

I am not rich, I am a teacher (HS),but we CHOOSE to spend our "expediable" cash on travel.

The same can be said for other things:
1. My friend just bought a 28,000 dollar boat
2. Other people by a $35000 car, and then 5 years it is worth $15000

So, I CHOOSE to use this as our "fun time" or "extravagent spending" if you will...

I am feeling good about DVC, as I could sell it for about $4-5000 profit, and your car/boat is worth less....

As for renting points, go right ahead and rent, but you will not be renting from me, as I use my points every year..

Couple of other things:
1. I claim DVC as a 2nd home on my taxes, so my "finacing" is less than indicated...
2. I claim DVC taxes on my 1040 form, so I reduce my "total outlay"..

So, in essence, my $30000 interest is a lot less than $30000...
And you cannot do that on a boat/car.

DeerH

 

[deerh]

By RayJay:I choose not to borrow it, so consider me re-evaluated, I'm spending $1500 cash to stay for 10 days including (fri and sat nights) this June cash. Only thing I can see is it's not a 1 bedroom.

That is good, but as Doc said, compare apples to apples, where are you staying?
I bet it is NOT on property, and it is not compared to DVC accomodations...

But to each his own, if you want to fight traffic to WDW, and all that, then that is cool...

Also, I will bet in 10 years, that $1500 will be $2500...
In 20 years it will be $3500....

DeerH

 

[SoCalKDG]

So where did the $30,000 plus interest come from to purchase your initial properties. If your rich, good for you.

I choose not to borrow it, so consider me re-evaluated, I'm spending $1500 cash to stay for 10 days including (fri and sat nights) this June cash. Only thing I can see is it's not a 1 bedroom.

Peace

You could have a studio for as low as 128 points in June for 10 nights, including 2 weekend nights. That would cost you about $10,240 on the resale market(at $80 per point). So your estimate of $30,000 is almost 300% too high. Someone has filled you with some strange info regarding the buy in cost for DVC.

At that price of $1500 it sounds like you are staying at a moderate. You could have a deluxe studio, and after 7 trips(not taking into account cost of money, saving, etc), take your 8th trip for the cost of just your dues (or about $576 for 10 nights(based off 4.5 ave cost of dues over that time).

 

[bicker]

So basically last year's credit and this year's extra charge make it a wash (except for $0.05)

Which is why it's a little silly to look at one year's increase and say anything. You need to average a few years together to get any useful information.

 

[Daitcher]

Sorry, but your tone implied otherwise. I think you meant exactly what you said. If you want to discuss whether people can really afford timeshares/vacation clubs, then we should discuss whether anyone can afford anything as my hubby is successful at his job because everyone needs car loans, school loans, mortgages, etc. Now a vacation club is not a necessity like a house is, but using your logic, no one should buy anything unless they have the cash for it, and that's not realisitic. My hubby and I are in the minority as we pay cash for our cars (just purchased our 1st van using payments as we got an incredible deal) - no one does that anymore. Sure, paying cash for DVC is very smart, but some of us may have to finance a few years as the interest (we pay hardly any interest it is one of my hubby's job benefits) we may pay will far outweigh the increase in room rates each and every year until we could afford DVC in cash.

My banker hubby has given me a great education about finances, but I didn't need much as my parents did a great job - haven't had a mortgage in over 28 years! Just because we question the increase doesn't mean we haven't researched and are uneducated about our purchase. Again, I'll stand by my ascertation that the increase seems high to us, even my banker hubby who sees this kind of stuff everyday thought it seemed high this year. Did it surprise him or I? No, but we still have a right to question it considering what was presented to us by our guide and from what I've read on here, many guides are using the dues as a selling point. Sure, we know dues are going to increase as most everything does in life, but the over/underestimation of taxes is a bit suspect, IMHO (haven't talked to my hubby about it yet). Maybe there is no other way around the over and underestimation of taxes (it doesn't really happen where I live), but the way it's calculated is important - presentation is everything, and that's the problem, IMHO.

You are entitled to your opinion, but your class comments were ignorant and I believe that you had other intentions behind your remarks than those that you've presented.

Tiger

Question the increases all you want. What are you hoping will happen by questioning it? Do you think the numbers will change? Why waste the energy on something you cannot change? DVC doesn't make up the numbers. As for the class comments maybe I should have phrased things differently. I don't see anything wrong with my observation of timeshares becoming too much for the masses. I've wasted too much time on this off the topic stuff. The numbers will not change and DVC doesn't owe you or anyone else a more detailed anylses other than your annual dues statement. Attend a meeeting if you want to speak out against the dues. This isn't your assessment where you can file a grievance. If you don't trust DVC then you should sell, period. I bought DVC because I trust the company and love the product. I've got better things to do like enjoying my trips to worry about $100 increases. Lets keep to the topics or travel and resorts.


DAVE