High iincrease in annual dues.

[deerh]

If you "own" DVC, by that I mean no payments to principal, only dues, then cash rates are MUCH higher.

Ex: 375 points (HHI and BWV)= ~$1700+dues/year.

Our vacations this year:
Based on Cash Ressies on the Disney website:
5 nights BWV studio in April: $415x5nights=$2075
6 nights BWV 2BR (BW view) in June= $715x6= $4290
4 nights HHI 1 BR in July= ~ $350x4= $1400

Now, this is NOT including tax, so lets' add it up;

Total price: $7765
Total Price with tax: ~ 10%: $776
$8541

So, for $1740 for 15 nights=$116/nite, if you find a better deal than that for THOSE accomodiations, let me know.

Also: some people say rack rate is too high, OK, then subtract the taxes above, and $7765 for 15 nights (that is a good discount I feel).

ONE MORE THING: IF you itemize your taxes, you can claim a portion of the dues, so it would be less than the $1700 quoted above. I would HOLD UP on selling those points. I too am a "cash" person, as I have no CC, but I love my DVC... Maybe you ought to revaluate your situation....

HTH
DeerH

 

[RobDoc]

How are you putting a value of $65 per night on 16 points. Isn't the going rental rate $10 = $160 per night?

Not that $160 is expensive for a 1br, it isn't by far, but I think $65 is a stretch.

RayJay

The comment I was asking about asserted that one can stay on cash for less than what we pay in maintenance fees. (

dues are way too high for what you get in return - much cheaper to stay on cash...

) I was using the per point cost of my annual fees in my examples. At 16 points for weekday nights and an actual cost this year of just over $4 per point - $65 is the approximate expense for that room. To suggest that the dues are "way too high for what we get in return" is a gross exaggeration, IMO. Thus my question asking where you can stay onsite for less.

For those of use who have owned for awhile, the original expenditure may have already been recouped and we can certainly stay for only the amount of our annual fees.

 

[sagwanamu]

Although I don't like the increase on anything but my salary, I think the due is reasonable. Only thing that I didn't like about the Due statement was that they should have estimated the property tax better.

After all DVC due increase was far less than my home HOA dues, which went up 12 percent after few years without increase and I don't even want to mention about my home property assessment bill, which went up 63%.

Don't be surprised with this increase, many more are to come in the future and it can be worse. After all, DVC is a luxury item and 100 dollar increase should not affect your checkbook. If it does, you need to think about if it was a wise choice to buy into DVC.

It's a beggining of the year. don't $100 make you to start the new year in bad note.

happy new year to all DVCers...

 

[jctwizzer]

The comment I was asking about asserted that one can stay on cash for less than what we pay in maintenance fees. () I was using the per point cost of my annual fees in my examples. At 16 points for weekday nights and an actual cost this year of just over $4 per point - $65 is the approximate expense for that room. To suggest that the dues are "way too high for what we get in return" is a gross exaggeration, IMO. Thus my question asking where you can stay onsite ........

Doc: altho I agree with all your statements about costs, dues, and our DVC, because we'll be using our all our points for four other trips in 2006, I did find a one bedroom timeshare, with kitchen, for $66(plus tax) a night next week. And I've seen the units--they're mostly on a par with our OKW, just not as close to WDW. Admittedly it is the off off season, but you can find bargains if you look. And no, I wouldn't sell or trade our DVC for any other places I've been. Just wanted to comment on your cost statement

 

[RobDoc]

Doc: altho I agree with all your statements about costs, dues, and our DVC, because we'll be using our all our points for four other trips in 2006, I did find a one bedroom timeshare, with kitchen, for $66(plus tax) a night next week. And I've seen the units--they're mostly on a par with our OKW, just not as close to WDW. Admittedly it is the off off season, but you can find bargains if you look. And no, I wouldn't sell or trade our DVC for any other places I've been. Just wanted to comment on your cost statement

I realize that there are many options for minimal charge, but none of those are onsite at WDW. Those that are happy staying offsite may not be good candidates for DVC ownership.

I'm trying to compare apples and apples - suggesting that our dues still don't provide a good value with comments about being able to stay on cash for less than DVC dues is comparing apples and cement trucks - especially when you use offsite timeshares as the basis for comparison. I can also stay at home for a lot less - but that isn't at WDW either.

.02

 

[Sammy]

(snip).....ONE MORE THING: IF you itemize your taxes, you can claim a portion of the dues, so it would be less than the $1700 quoted above....(snip)
HTH
DeerH

I wasn't aware of being able to claim the dues....can you elaborate for me please?

 

[vascubaguy]

I wasn't aware of being able to claim the dues....can you elaborate for me please?

Part of the dues we pay are for property taxes and you can usually deduct those on your tax return, but you should check with your tax advisor to make sure.

 

[Sammy]

Part of the dues we pay are for property taxes and you can usually deduct those on your tax return, but you should check with your tax advisor to make sure.

OK...thanks for the info, vascubaguy!

 

[cobbler]

Ok, so help walk me through this please.

I just received my dues statement and am a brand new owner so I am not sure where to read how much extra to tag on from an over or underestimated property tax.

Here is what mine says for SSR for 2005 (as I bought at the end of October)
Operating budget - 220pts - 2.5816 - 68 days = 105.81
Capital Reserve - 220pts - .4652 - 68 days = 19.07

I assume this is where they would tag on additional or subtract for the property tax yes? (below)
Property Tax - Actual 220 pts, .0140 - 68 days = .57
Now had that been all year that would only have been an increase in 5.11 they underestimated yes?

So here is this years
Operating budget 220pts - 2.5120 - 365 days - 552.64 (this is actually down from last year)
Capital Reserve - 220pts - .6181 - 365 days - 135.98 (this went up, what is capital reserve?)
Property Tax - Estimated 220pts - .8501 - 365 days - 187.02 (now I am not sure if this is up or down since it didn't show me last years estimated. Can someone who owns SSR tell me if this is up or down)

Anyway this years dues bill for me is 875.64

 

[Tiger926]

Our dues went up $140.59 for 175 points from last year - kind of high at first glance, but we are thankful that our exchange rate is so good at the moment as this helps a bit. If my numbers are correct: 2005 $3.83 point and 2006 $4.23 pt.

This is the problem as I see it as I just got my SSR dues bill. Please bear with me though as I'm not very good in math, but I do have incredible foresight and planning abilities, something I'm not sure DVC is utilizing at the moment:

1) 2006 Property taxes are estimated at .8501
2) 2005 Property taxes actual at 1.1046

Hmm? Is anyone else confused by why they are underestimating when in plain sight there is proof that their numbers are too low? Do perhaps the estimates have to be in before the actual numbers, in which case, you use last year's taxes. I live in Canada which is tax hell and our property taxes never go down, seems to me most cities would follow this trend, and therefore should be overestimating, don't you think?

If someone can explain the whole underestimating and actual taxes thing to me, that would be great! By the way, you U.S. residents are so lucky that you get to deduct your dues and mortgages, no way does that happen here in Canada!

Tiger

 

[MaryAnnBaum]

We received a charge for actual 2005 property tax over estimated tax. The charge for 2006 estimated tax is less than 2005 actual. It seems to me that Disney is being misleading here in trying to keep SSR dues lower to attract more buyers. I highly doubt 2006 property tax is going to be less than 2005 yet they are charging less. We will end up with an adjustment next year as well. This way they can continue to say dues are under $4 (2.512 operating, .6181 capital reserve, .8501 property tax estimate = $3.9802). 2005 actual property tax was 1.1046. SSR owners are going to pay an adjustment of at least .2545 (1.1046-.8501) per point next year. It looks to me like actual dues at SSR are $4.2347. Does anyone know of any reason why 2005 property tax rate would be higher than 2006?

 

[Tiger926]

Yup! Marketing 101 seems to be at play here and that really isn't appropriate at all. Like I said, it doesn't take a genius to see that each year your "estimated" taxes are too low, after a year or two in the real world this would have been corrected, but in Disney's world they use it for other purposes. If this was their first year in business, ok. But, since they've been operating for a long while, the tax issue should not be an issue any longer; therefore, the only logical explanation is that they are using it to their advantage. I must say that when we purchased in May '04, the dues being under $4.00 a point was a big part of our guide's presenation. He claimed that SSR dues would remain the cheapest for awhile and he pretty much guaranteeed thath the dues would stay under $4.00 a point for at least 4-5 years. Obviously not! So, they are using it as part of their marketing strategy because it happened to us! Do we love our DVC? Absolutely! But we don't love these misleading practices at all!

Tiger

 

[RobDoc]

Yup! Marketing 101 seems to be at play here and that really isn't appropriate at all. Like I said, it doesn't take a genius to see that each year your "estimated" taxes are too low, after a year or two in the real world this would have been corrected, but in Disney's world they use it for other purposes. If this was their first year in business, ok. But, since they've been operating for a long while, the tax issue should not be an issue any longer; therefore, the only logical explanation is that they are using it to their advantage. I must say that when we purchased in May '04, the dues being under $4.00 a point was a big part of our guide's presenation. He claimed that SSR dues would remain the cheapest for awhile and he pretty much guaranteeed thath the dues would stay under $4.00 a point for at least 4-5 years. Obviously not! So, they are using it as part of their marketing strategy because it happened to us! Do we love our DVC? Absolutely! But we don't love these misleading practices at all!Tiger

There have been several years when the estimated taxes were too high and we actually had our annual fees reduced for the following year. Since Disney does not set the tax rate (Orange County does), it is very likely that the estimate may be off each year - sometimes too high, sometimes too low. I don't see anything misleading about this at all. The issue has never been consistent each year anyway- some years the actual taxes levied by the county are higher than the DVC estimate and sometimes they are lower.

I'd always prefer they estimate it too low, as I then have the use of that money for a longer period of time ... I feel the same way about owing the IRS, I'd rather need to send a check on April 15 than to overpay them throughout the year and have to wait for a refund of my own money.

 

[Tiger926]

That's a good point Doc as I agree that it's best to send the government a cheque for taxes owing then have them use my money throughout the year if not necessary, but, this doesn't seem to be at play here.

I guess because I'm Canadian and taxes rise each and every year, I find it very hard to believe that property taxes are going to go down, just doesn't make sense to me. Therefore, when I see the estimate totals for the past few years on my dues statements and the actual amounts, they increase each year; therefore, that would tell me that Disney would need to adjust their "estimates" a bit as to new members, this could be misleading and my example from our tour proves that they use this to their advantage when it may or may not be a legitimate point, IMHO. The fact is that not only did our dues rise from operating budget and capital reserves, when you factor in the tax adjustment it makes for some high increases. We go through this here in Canada all of the time with our property taxes - my home as increased in over $500.00 in property taxes in 2 years (just got word it's going up again!) and it seems that our dues will be following suit, and that's a scary thought!

Tiger

 

[deerh]

According to Doc's anaylsis, my dues have only gone up .67 cents since 1999 at BWV. That is .67 in 7 years. NOT BAD in my estimation.
Now, HHI has gone up .85 in 6 years of ownership. Again, not as bad as one may think.....
JMHO
DeerH






Year OKW BWV VB VB(sub) HH VWL BCV SSR

2006 4.24 4.69 5.27 4.12 4.34 4.61 4.48 3.98
2005 3.86 4.41 4.87 3.84 3.86 4.35 4.27 3.83
2004 3.68 4.25 4.67 3.67 3.70 4.22 4.18 3.80
2003 3.49 4.11 4.37 4.37 3.69 4.05 3.97
2002 3.22 3.92 4.17 3.33 3.49 3.80 3.77
2001 3.13 3.83 3.98 2.70 3.32 3.63
2000 3.16 3.94 4.07 2.87 3.25 3.62
1999 3.16 4.02 3.99 2.82 3.18
1998 3.17 3.94 ---- 2.76 3.20
1997 3.14 3.84 ---- 2.90 3.16
1996 2.99 3.70 ---- 2.82 3.16
1995 2.84
1994 2.70
1993 2.63
1992 2.56
1991 2.51

 

[MaryAnnBaum]

Property taxes don't go up one year and down the next. Property tax rates are set by voters in the respective county. Sometimes voted in levies expire but rarely. Disney is not paying this money to the county when they collect it from us. It goes into a bank account until taxes are due. They are never paying the government before they collect from us and they are never overpaying the government and waiting for a refund.

 

[Tiger926]

According to my calculations, SSR dues are $4.23 per point - have I done something wrong? If not, then the above chart has to be adjusted.

MaryAnnBaum - Voters actually vote on your tax rates? Ours is calculate by city council and each year of course, they increase our taxes so we as voters can't vote on increases or mill rates at all!

Tiger

 

[Doctor P]

My suspicion is that the property taxes in 2005 took a big jump due to the need to pay for services/repairs made necessary by the 2004 hurricanes and that it is indeed conceivable that those will go back down. Disney could get into serious trouble if it could be shown that they were deliberately underestimating the property taxes (and they have no incentive to do so on the sold out resorts, anyway--plus, they get interest on the money they collect until they actually pay the property taxes which is a another disincentive to underestimate the taxes).

 

[RobDoc]

...
I guess because I'm Canadian and taxes rise each and every year, I find it very hard to believe that property taxes are going to go down, just doesn't make sense to me. ...

I never said the actual taxes went up or down for any given year- but that the DVC estimate was either higher or lower than the actual taxes levied by the county. Again, Disney has no control over where the rate for 2006 may ultimately end up. They must estimate the tax in order to include it in the dues structure and then compensate for any difference once the actual rate is published by the county. That difference (either higher or lower than the estimate) is balanced the following year in the actual fees charged to members.

 

[Tiger926]

I totally understand what you are saying, and that is why I'm saying they need to do a better job of estimating since good estimators use past knowledge in order to accurately estimate. Maybe I'm complicating things but it seems simple enough to me - Disney has lots of past years to use as estimation guides, so they shouldn't be off on their tax estimates that much unless there has been an unforeseen disaster as the hurricanes were, thanks for reminding me of that.

Tiger