Help with son who spends more than he makes

[Maxpowers]

OP, if you're saying that he seems to be at the maturity level of a 16 or 17 year old I do not think sitting down with him over spreadsheets will work out well. You know him better thank I do (obviously), but the last thing a 16 or 17 year old (maturity wise of course) would want to do would be to sit down with his parents and talk about responsible spending in a spreadsheet.

I understand not wanting to kick him out of the house, I certainly wouldn't want to do this with my children, but there needs to be some kind of "rock bottom" for him to hit in order to really drive the point home. My vote is to let him deal with his cell phone by himself, if he needs it for his job let him do it. If it goes unpaid and he gets fired from his job because of that, those are some pretty serious consequences. I don't know how hard it is to find another job as a auto mechanic, but there are always other jobs out there. It's a way to either have him learn some responsibility or be on the receiving end of some hardship without kicking out of the house.

 

[Marionnette]

We set up a spreadsheet to monitor spending every day so he can realize where his money is going. When he comes home from work together we put in the spreadsheet what he spends each day in categories such as food, tools etc. I think this will help. One thing I also neglected to mention is that as a starting mechanic he has to routinely buy tools which are very expensive. I am not making excuses for him not having money, I just want people to have a well rounded picture of his expenses. Tools are not cheap. We turned off the internet on his phone which is a start. We spoke with him about also turning off wifi in the house. Again, not making excuses, he does have ADD with impulsivity issues. This was diagnosed by several doctors. He did have counseling while in high school but does not want to take any medications. That is his decision and I support it. He tried some in middle school and the results were not good. His doctor told us that with ADD your maturity level is below what your chronological age indicates. That is true. I think he is more like a 16 or 17 year old right now. It upsets me to hear that when I provide information people are saying I'm making excuses. I am not. I just wanted to give the fullest picture I can give while posting online about our family. We have told him we aren't paying any more bills (for which he does pay us back by the way, but slowly). I am not kicking him out of the house, period. I was really looking for ways to make it less comfortable for him living at home and making saving money more desirable for him-- such as turning off wifi.

Some people mentioned that $400 per month (which we collect $200 per paycheck-- someone asked in the thread) may be too high. He makes about $14/hour and does not get paid overtime if he works over 40 hours. Mechanics are specifically excluded in the law from employers paying overtime. So he is straight time. I think $400 is OK but I could break it down to him in a different way like $250 is for rent and $150 is for car insurance and phone or whatever. Not sure this breakdown is necessary.

Well, I'll give you props for coming back to this thread. I find it odd that you didn't feel that including his ADD was an important piece of information in your previous posts, but whatever.

I still think that you are making excuses for him. Most enablers will. Even a 16 or 17 year old is capable of understanding that money is finite and you cannot spend the same dollar twice. Sorry, Mom, but you need to allow him to make his own mistakes and stop using his ADD as an excuse to helicopter parent him through his life.

 

[redsonja76]

The breakdown is absolutely necessary so he has a clear vision of just how many bill are involved in being an adult.

Both my daughter and myself have ADHD, and yes it absolutely does make it harder to manage money when you have impulse control (see my earlier post about bankruptcy) but you CANNOT pay his bills for him. Not ever. Not at all. Other mechanics go out into the world and have to buy their tools, he can manage. If he has a credit with paypal and gamestop, he can have a credit with the tool store. Atleast that credit would go towards his actual job.

If you don't want to kick him out, and I understand not wanting to do that, you have to get hard line NOW about paying absolutely nothing for him, and treating his bills that he pays to you like real world bills with late fees and interest. This is the only way he will learn.

 

[TwoMisfits]

We set up a spreadsheet to monitor spending every day so he can realize where his money is going. When he comes home from work together we put in the spreadsheet what he spends each day in categories such as food, tools etc. I think this will help. One thing I also neglected to mention is that as a starting mechanic he has to routinely buy tools which are very expensive. I am not making excuses for him not having money, I just want people to have a well rounded picture of his expenses. Tools are not cheap. We turned off the internet on his phone which is a start. We spoke with him about also turning off wifi in the house. Again, not making excuses, he does have ADD with impulsivity issues. This was diagnosed by several doctors. He did have counseling while in high school but does not want to take any medications. That is his decision and I support it. He tried some in middle school and the results were not good. His doctor told us that with ADD your maturity level is below what your chronological age indicates. That is true. I think he is more like a 16 or 17 year old right now. It upsets me to hear that when I provide information people are saying I'm making excuses. I am not. I just wanted to give the fullest picture I can give while posting online about our family. We have told him we aren't paying any more bills (for which he does pay us back by the way, but slowly). I am not kicking him out of the house, period. I was really looking for ways to make it less comfortable for him living at home and making saving money more desirable for him-- such as turning off wifi.

Some people mentioned that $400 per month (which we collect $200 per paycheck-- someone asked in the thread) may be too high. He makes about $14/hour and does not get paid overtime if he works over 40 hours. Mechanics are specifically excluded in the law from employers paying overtime. So he is straight time. I think $400 is OK but I could break it down to him in a different way like $250 is for rent and $150 is for car insurance and phone or whatever. Not sure this breakdown is necessary.

So, he's looking at a gross salary of $28K (2000 hours x $14/hour)...that means his taxes will be low, so he's gonna pay about 10-15% total max on that for $25K takehome for the year. Since housing should be about 25% of that takehome salary (in real life), he should be paying about $6250/year in rent - divided by 12 months means he should be paying $525/month in order to still be able to live. So, you are not asking too much for $400, especially since you are covering car insurance and phone. As you mentioned, I might actually break down his bills and what he is paying for, but I'd do it while raising his fee to live at home to $600, since he won't be able to live on his own if he can't start knowing how it will feel to pay this fee ($525 rent + $75/month for very basic phone and car insurance). Rather than having him buy the tools, you could buy these intro tools from your "rent" charge while he pays all the "normal" costs. Working on getting him to know how living on his salary is without unexpected expenses is the 1st step...then including savings where he could pay these expenses is the 2nd step...

 

[hsmamato2]

OP..try not to get too 'angry' with our responses.... you asked. And I am a little too personally familiar with raising an ADD person thru young adulthood,as I think many responders here are also. I can tell you absolutely that yes, helping him setup a spreadsheet is fine, but helping him to maintain it daily is hovering,and you're doing for him what he needs to do. (he needs to feel the importance of doing so) Helping him see what he needs to do is one thing, doing it for him is another. One thing I learned while parenting is what the above pp's noted..."don't handicap your kids by making their life easy."
Believe me when I say I know.... I had a kiddo(not a kid anymore) and there were many tense,last minute moments at tax paying time, or other occasions where a spreadsheet/proper care of important paperwork was vital. After time,and mistakes,(and ignoring important stuff until too late) and dealing with it (what a pain) ON HIS OWN (we gave advice, and guided him to the proper outlets for assistance when he asked) he LEARNED how to take care of these things. I never advocated 'throwing him out' as I never would have done that to my kiddo either (at any age) But we did make things 'uncomfortable' for him in that he learned by our ACTIONS that needs are very different from wants,and as an emerging adult, his life=his responsibility.
(FWIW, he is on his own now,and a contributing member of society after paying off and fixing all his debts etc- he learned how to work, and save enough for a car(cash) and a security deposit on an apt.along with rent payments)
There is light at the end of the tunnel, but it's very difficult getting there sometimes.

 

[DreamIsaWish]

He needs to start learning the lesson of needs and wants. Phone/Car/Shelter are needs, GameStop and fast food are wants.

This is so true across the board, not just with OP. I teach Junior Achievement and in the kindergarten lesson this is one of the main points. We make them put stickers in two different columns -- Needs vs. Wants. Stuffed animals and toys -- wants. Food (but not the sticker of candy) and shelter -- need. It's been two months since the last session but they're still telling me about needs vs. wants and spending wisely. I just hope the message sticks with them way past kindergarten.

 

[RitaE]

Really I have a son kind of like yours, although mine doesn't live with me. The only advice I have is to try and talk him into switching to the Prepaid Debit Cards such as the American Express Serve or the Walmart Bluebird etc., at least for his discretionary spending amounts. It's really hard to find good prepaid Debit cards with low to no fees, but I've kind of come to the realization that for some people - a small monthly fee like $3 is preferable because those cards don't give the option to overspend. Ever. If he doesn't have the money, then the charge doesn't authorize.

I did get my son to agree to send a small amount off to retirement savings and that's on automatic transfer on his paydays and he lets me manage the Investing Decisions. He's nowhere close to maxing out his retirement savings and he still seems to spend nearly every $1 he gets his hands on, but at leas he's doing something, which is better than nothing.

But beyond that all I have to say is this. You cannot make him do things he doesn't want to do. You just can't. The only thing you can do is let him suffer the consequences so maybe he doesn't do it again.

 

[crisi]

My son is seventeen and intends to go into the trades. We understand that tools will be part of his investment. As such, since we are paying for four years of college for my daughter, we see the tools as being part of his "getting going" expenses that we will take care of.

I think you investing in tools for him would be a lot better than you helping him cover gaming expenses when he runs out of money. Or giving him a pass on room and board. Once the tools are invested in, they should last for decades if he can keep track of them - so they are more of an investment over the long term - and if that is where you help, he has a much better experience of what it will cost to live once that investment is completed. If he loses tools, then I'd make it his problem.

Also, from experience, managing ADHD is about habits and crutches. Checking your bank balance every day and your spend against a spreadsheet is a habit. Using a prepaid card for fast food is a crutch - and a good one for someone who continually goes over budget on running through the drive through. But HE needs to take responsibility for developing the habits and using the crutches - you can get it going, but if he decides to use paypal instead of the prepaid card for his luxuries, that's where you cannot step up to fix it.

 

[eeyoreandtink]

100% Honesty form someone who works with teens daily. You are enabling him, and then making excuses for WHY you feel justified in enabling him. He is an adult. He needs to reap the natural consequences of his actions, and bailing him out over and over again is only making it worse. When the fall comes it will be bigger. Stop paying things off so they don't go to collections. You need to get him out of your house. Don't pay his bills for him. Make him responsible for them. He needs to learn how the real world works and the sooner the better. If you don't make him take responsibility he never will and will still be dependent on you when he is 30.

 

[amylevan]

You are micromanaging. You can't micromanage a young adult, and you really can't micromanage someone with the maturity level of a teenager. Set up the spreadsheet, show him how to use it, and then let him do it. Do not do it with him, do not look over his shoulder while he does it. Like it or not, he is an adult who needs to learn to function as an adult.

I'm not sure how many people can say the same thing. Nothing is going to get through to him unless you actually let him go at it alone and fail. You have said that you aren't going to kick him out, so what does he care if he misses his rent? Hand over the phone and insurance. Let him pay the bills and see how much at it actually costs. He doesn't pay? Fine, they will shut off his phone or cancel his insurance. That's what happens.

 

[AnnaFloridaLover]

While I strongly agree that the OP needs to stop financially bailing out the son I'm amazed how many people are telling her to "kick him out". How many of you could actually kick your 21 year old child out of the house because of their bad spending habits? Would you be ok with them living on the streets?

 

[RitaE]

While I strongly agree that the OP needs to stop financially bailing out the son I'm amazed how many people are telling her to "kick him out". How many of you could actually kick your 21 year old child out of the house because of their bad spending habits? Would you be ok with them living on the streets?

Well this is the thing. People generally like having a roof over their head and a hot shower. Right now his choice is "Should I forgo buying this video game or should I piss Mom off and not pay rent." He really doesn't hate pissing Mom off more than he loves video games and so he does what he does.

So at some point (and I'm not saying pack his bags today and put them on the curb but move the kid along) his choice needs to be "Should I have warm and safe shelter, or should I have a video game. When it comes to that decision, maybe he'll see the light???

Some people, no matter how they are raised, just need to stare at the consequence before they get it. I'm not kidding about my son being like this. At one point he didn't have an affordable apartment so we agreed to let him come back here while he looked for a new place and a new roommate. The problem was, he decided our house was too far from his job and OMG he'd have to commute on the train. And then, Mom and Dad said hey wouldn't give him a car. Unfair!!! So he proposed solution was Mom and Dad would rent him an apartment he chose and he'd "pay them back." That was a fun fight. But once he saw Mom and Dad weren't his soft landing, he saved up his deposit money and found an affordable place with a new roommate.

 

[PlutoPony]

It sounds like the OP is trying to teach her son HOW to budget, something a lot of people never learn. It's not intuitive to everyone and if showing him step by step how to do it is what it takes, then it's time worth spending. The key is to show him how to do it, not do it for him. Let him actually do the data entry, initiate sitting down to input the info, open the bills himself, etc. Give him a few days to get the hang of it then back out and see how he does on his own. Maybe a week later go back over what he's done, see if he's got the hang of it - or if he's just not interested/motivated in following through. To be fair to the OP, I can see that just telling the kid to learn to budget may not be effective - teaching him how to do it may be necessary. And that's fine imho... just draw the line in dong it for him.

And be honest in recognizing it if you show him how and he just won't do it. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. If he won't "drink" then more severe measures are needed.

 

[barkley]

I could break it down to him in a different way like $250 is for rent and $150 is for car insurance and phone or whatever. Not sure this breakdown is necessary.

I would break it down-we do it this way for our dd. we could just bundle the amount her bank account auto 'pays' into ours each month for cell phone (her share-less expensive to be on our family plan), auto insurance (her share-less expensive to be on our policy) and renter's insurance (bundled w/our policies which I get a discount for her on if paid in full yearly vs. monthly installments w/ a 'convenience fee') but I want her to see each month on her statement/each time she goes on-line what each of those expenses amount to every month.

I have to say though-I'm on the same page with those who feel the 'rent' is WAY TOO LOW. in reality what you are calling rent is his phone, insurance, housing, utilities, internet (albeit unavailable to him now), likely cable or satellite tv, food/toiletries/laundry & dishwashing supplies. NO WAY is he ever going to grasp the actual cost of those items and how he has to tailor his spending habits to cover these UNLESS he is paying the fair market value.

dd had the option of living at home-room and board free while going to college. one year into it she decided to move out. now, she gets astronomically low rent ($250) by virtue of a hoard of roommates but it's been a HUGE wakeup call/adjustment in her spending habits by virtue of having to shell out her share of utilities/internet/tv, buy her own toiletries/laundry/dish stuff, BUT ESPECIALY FOOD. she initially thought she could just continue on with her eating out ("I never eat that much at home anyway) but she didn't think about the snacks she grabbed, the condiments she used, how many ingredients it took to make what she perceived as 'simple/cheap food' (she was floored to find out what it took spice wise to make a few simple items-even more so when she went to buy the spices and found out that you couldn't just get the couple of tablespoons of each but had to buy full bottles which aint cheap).

what used to be the 'entertainment' portion of her budget has drastically shrunk-no more monthly trips to gamestop (yup-she's a gamer too), daily eating out with friends and weekly trips to the movies. she's learned what it truly costs $$$ wise to self-support.


you're doing these spreadsheets with your son-try doing one for yourself. think about EVERYTHING your son is provided by virtue of living at home-

food (including condiments, spices you use to prepare stuff, foil for preparation.....all the elements of food preparation)
beverages
paper products
laundry supplies
dishwashing supplies
power
water
heat (whatever source)
oddz and endz (is there always a supply of windshield washer fluid he can take from, oil for his car, car cleaning products you keep on hand?)

this stuff you can somewhat divide by the number of people in your home and then figure out what his true cost of living for these items are.

BUT WAIT-you need to add in,

his personal toiletries (weather you buy them or he does)
what internet, tv service would cost him ON HIS OWN (because on his own he would be paying for it entirely).


try adding all of this together and I suspect you will find that you are grossly undercharging him b/c just in the realm of food-

according to the usda-for a male in their 20's the average cost per month for food (as in groceries-not eating out) is $303.60 (this is for a 'moderate' style of eating-not bare bones ($187.20) nor 'liberal' ($373.90).

at the current amount you are charging-he's not even coming close to covering his food let alone any form of 'rent'.

 

[pocomom]

The key is to show him how to do it, not do it for him.

This!

Op, You sound like a good and loving mother. What everyone is saying is the MOST loving thing you can do right now is give him the tools - but let him fail. Now when this is a relatively minor blemish on his credit and the struggle is small. Giving him the opportunity to learn himself may save him much heartache when the stakes are higher.
I had a period of bad credit in my 20's I buckled down, paid everything off and was able to purchase my first home at 27 and have lived within my means since. And I have ADD as well. He might need this period of struggle to grow!

 

[usnuzuloose]

Either people want to take advice or they don't. A lot of parents still make excuses for the kids, so they don't want to fly the coop so to speak. Only so much you can tell someone.

 

[threeboysmom]

Hmmm... I struggle with this too on a different level, but what I would suggest to start with is lower his rent, but give him TOTAL responsibility for the car insurance and his phone - you are not to pay those bills anymore.

Right now, there is absolutely no consequence to him not being his rent (you're his mom after all and you're certainly not going to kick him out to live on the street). There's a lot more hanging on his car insurance & phone bill so give him those responsibilities and DO NOT BAIL HIM OUT if his insurance ends up getting cancelled or his phone gets shut off! Don't don't don't! He HAS to learn that lesson so let him learn it! But to make the process easier and a smoother transition, do lower his rent to compensate him taking on these 2 big responsibilities. Then just step back and watch.

 

[crisi]

While I strongly agree that the OP needs to stop financially bailing out the son I'm amazed how many people are telling her to "kick him out". How many of you could actually kick your 21 year old child out of the house because of their bad spending habits? Would you be ok with them living on the streets?

I wouldn't do it in January in Minnesota, but I'd do it in Spring, Summer or Fall. He'd spend a few weeks couch surfing with friends, then we he exhausted the friends, he'd come home, hopefully a little wiser.

Another suggestion from upthread was is that if he's not paying rent, he doesn't get the room. He can sleep on the couch/garage/unfinished basement and suddenly you have a place for sewing or scrapbooking!

But I am the least codependent person in the world, according to family week at rehab. Your problems are your problems - not mine.

 

[bluedoggy]

While I can't say I had this kind of issue with our daughter- she was always very responsible. But, I have watched other family members rely
on their parents to "bail them out" even into their 50's. Something that my Step-Mother said to me when I graduated from high school- and was moving out
at age 18 " If you leave, you are never coming back and Don't ever ask your Dad or me for money". It was harsh, but made me realize at that
very young age that I had no other option but to make sure I took care of myself,and my finances. There was NO safety net. I NEVER asked for
money- and none was ever offered.
Not to say that every parent should do this, but it did give me the incentive I needed to be independent, gave me a huge drive to succeed and accomplish more than I ever thought possible.
just saying....

 

[NKHarris329]

We set up a spreadsheet to monitor spending every day so he can realize where his money is going. When he comes home from work together we put in the spreadsheet what he spends each day in categories such as food, tools etc. I think this will help.

You are wrong. This only teaches him you will baby him and hold his hand and do it all for him while he goes to Gamestop.

One thing I also neglected to mention is that as a starting mechanic he has to routinely buy tools which are very expensive. I am not making excuses for him not having money, I just want people to have a well rounded picture of his expenses. Tools are not cheap. We turned off the internet on his phone which is a start. We spoke with him about also turning off wifi in the house. Again, not making excuses, he does have ADD with impulsivity issues. This was diagnosed by several doctors. He did have counseling while in high school but does not want to take any medications. That is his decision and I support it. He tried some in middle school and the results were not good. His doctor told us that with ADD your maturity level is below what your chronological age indicates. That is true. I think he is more like a 16 or 17 year old right now. It upsets me to hear that when I provide information people are saying I'm making excuses. I am not. I just wanted to give the fullest picture I can give while posting online about our family.

Those highlighted bits above are excuses. You can justify them however you like, still excuses. Lots of people have job related expenses and medical conditions. Lots of those same people still manage to pay bills without mommy and daddy holding hands and making spreadsheets.

We have told him we aren't paying any more bills (for which he does pay us back by the way, but slowly). I am not kicking him out of the house, period. I was really looking for ways to make it less comfortable for him living at home and making saving money more desirable for him-- such as turning off wifi.

You have been given lots of ideas. Do you think you are ready to put them in action? I don't know if you are yet. That's fine, but what is your long term plan and how does continuing to support him fit? What has to happen for you to decide you are done with the hand holding?

Some people mentioned that $400 per month (which we collect $200 per paycheck-- someone asked in the thread) may be too high. He makes about $14/hour and does not get paid overtime if he works over 40 hours. Mechanics are specifically excluded in the law from employers paying overtime. So he is straight time. I think $400 is OK but I could break it down to him in a different way like $250 is for rent and $150 is for car insurance and phone or whatever. Not sure this breakdown is necessary.

Doesn't matter. Let HIM come to you if your current arrangement doesn't work. Make him provide proof that with his income and expenses he can't meet your current plan, and let him figure out a solution. Make him grow.