Help with son who spends more than he makes

[Bianca and Bernard]

I created a new account just for privacy but I've been a DIS member for many years. We have a son living at home who graduated from auto mechanic school in June. He has always worked and started working full time the day after he graduated. He doesn't make much and lives at home. The problem is he always spends more than he makes. He spends tons of money on gas because he likes to drive around, on food, on his car, and other things. He will find ways to use things like PayPal or Game Stop credit to buy things but won't have the money to pay it off and then will get letters from creditors. When we talk to him he basically says he just can't help himself. So we have been trying to make things less comfortable for him at home to try to get him to curb his spending. Right now we pay for his car insurance & phone. He has to have the car for work and needs the phone in case his boss needs him to come in etc. We turned off the internet on his phone but we are having trouble coming up with other ways to get the lightbulb to turn on so he is better about spending. We do charge him "rent" which in reality we put away for him because he has zero savings. He was good about giving us the money but then had some car repair expenses and missed a few payments. We worry about his credit and we did recently pay off his $400 balance on the Game Stop bill because it was about to go to collections. He won't even sit down to discuss money with us. We are super good with money and try to give him advice but he is extremely resistant. He is impulsive with spending.

So I'm looking for advice on how to make him a little less comfortable at home so he feels like he wants to pay us for the bills we laid out money for and his "rent" so he can get XYZ back. I'm doubt turning off his internet on the phone will be enough. We could say no more friends over. I'm not sure what else to do. Any ideas? Thanks in advance.

It's past time for your son to take control of his life.
I've raised 2 kids to adulthood, with a 3rd still getting there. My youngest has a bank account (as did the older ones) and he's not old enough to have a job yet, he gets an allowance from us. We taught all of our kids, when they were younger (which doesn't help you now, I know) how to budget.

Our 2nd kid had a spot of trouble, and we needed to help her fly out of the nest (refused to look for a job or enroll in community college or do anything other than lay around); so we found her a job as a nanny for a friend of ours and sent her out into the world. After 3 years of struggling, (we helped her occasionally; paid her electric bill once, so it wouldn't get shut off; filled her fridge/pantry/freezer for her a few times; and paid her phone bill for 2 of those years. She finally got it together, and is now married an expecting her first baby. Would she have gotten together if we had let her stay in the nest? Nope, she is the type of person that needs to pushed into things to get moving. So with her, it was the right thing.

OP, I think you are enabling your son. Stop opening his mail, stop babying him along. Make him responsible for his own actions.

 

[DreamIsaWish]

needs a phone for work--tracfone (reconditioned non-cool phone) for about $25 + $20 month prepaid plan--that should do it. I kept an old tracfone for several years as the "consequence" phone (sassy mouth, bad grades, broken curfew=turn in your Iphone and use the tracfone until you earn the Iphone back). If someone really "needs" a phone, a tracfone works just fine. I would also let his bills go to collections if he refuses to talk and set a budget.

Agree with this!

My phone is a flip phone for only about $3 or $4 per month (I think it's T-Mobile). Only 30 minutes/texts per month, but perfectly acceptable (especially when I think about how much money I've saved over the years). If he needs the phone for calls from work, then 30 minutes should be more than enough. If he wants more minutes or a "fun" phone he's got to get everything else back under control first.

 

[hsmamato2]

Jake, we did print a spreadsheet for him and also we want him to track daily expenses so he can see where his money is piddled away. Our financial advisor said he would talk with him and we just need to figure a time to do that. It is what you say about consequences that we are having a tough time with. We need to tighten the screws somehow but I don't know exactly what consequences are for a 21 year old.

This son isn't a kid anymore....OP I feel for you, but your responses tell me that you are still making excuses for his choices..... here's the deal, you have NO control over his choices at that age. Whether he lives at home on your dime or not, he is free to do as he likes. and YOU are bankrolling his foolishness. That's just the black and white simple version.(you keep responding with posts about how he is actually doing 'better' than your post made him seem)
The only way he is going to learn to make better choices is to make them,and deal with the fallout ON HIS OWN. Yup,I said that. And I believe it.
The lesson he needs to learn,you also need to learn. Make things 'less comfortable" oh yes, that is a very good idea. You can start by NOT paying for anything anymore. NOTHING. if he wants a car or a phone, or any food outside of standard family meals, HE should be paying for it. If he has no money,and you DO NOT give any to him to bail him out, it is only a matter of time before he begins to connect the dots. My older ds learned a lot of this before he moved out..... when he was younger, he messed up his bills/payments a bit,in fact a few times his phone service was shut off. He was pretty upset, but he found a way to make his payments,and got things going again.He had a job, I couldn't force him to spend wisely,he had to do it himself.
In the meantime, he lacked a lot of things that his friends enjoyed,like extra money for going out, gas for the car he got to use for work(but had to keep filled with gas,and insurance paid up monthly on his own) and family meals. In other words, we were his support, but at his age(older teen) we weren't obligated to worry about cellphones, or fun times with friends. Those thongs are bonuses he had to earn and pay for on his own.
OP, I am not judging,since the past can't be changed, but is it possible that a lifetime of your sons parents bailing him out,'helping' fix his mistakes, is a pattern,and he expects it to all get fixed b/c you always have? (big mistake,btw for future reference)
The only way to change that pattern of thinking is to change your role in all of it. You can;t do much about his bad choices. Change how you respond,and let him take his own responsibilities on.

 

[hsmamato2]

the consequences are he needs to move out of home. He is a young adult trying to deal with being a young adult yet still being treated like a child. Its time for tough love, give him a time frame, tell he has to leave home and give him all the help you can to get a place of his own. He needs his independence, figire out his own life without you watching his every move

Exactly. Consequences are something we want our young children to experience, to learn from. At 21,he's and ADULT,and the consequences are the things you're trying to shield him from,the late bills, the collection notices,and the rent,car and phone payments.
Those ARE the natural consequences of choosing to not pay for your own life.

 

[Dakota731]

Working at a university, I see this all too often. We have parents calling professors every day about grades, why their child missed class etc. I've even had a mom of a co-worker (who is 24) call to tell us why her daughter would be late for work. Our generation of parents want to make life too easy for our kids. Since these kids always have a soft place to land, they are not learning from their mistakes and gaining independence. It's the same philosophy as the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality. Young people today are not experience losing or any consequences for lazy or foolish behavior. We are really doing a disservice to these kids and our entire society is paying the price.

 

[barkley]

Forget DIS, it's not a popular opinion in America, as evidenced by the financial crisis of 6 or 7 years ago. I'm not talking about teaching kids financial responsibility, I'm talking about adults in their 30's, 40's and 50's and sometime's 60's being financial responsible.
My former next door neighbors were in that boat. They walked away from their house because they were upside down in it, and decided they were going to file for bankruptcy........only to have to walk back to their house and do a short sale because every bankruptcy attorney they went to told them they had more than enough income to pay all their bills, choosing not to pay them is not grounds for bankruptcy.

I totally get it.

I entirely sympathize with those who ended up in financial straits through no misdoings on their own part-folks who bought homes they COULD afford, didn't view the perceived equity as personal spending accounts to finance wants (vs. needs), used credit responsibly....then during the bad economic times saw their incomes drastically cut or in many cases entirely lost. I don't however have much sympathy for those who bought homes beyond their means (and even the projected means that supposedly justified the adjustable rate or interest only mortgages they bought into), used h.e.l.o.c.'s to spend every penny of perceived equity such that now as we approach the 10 year anniversary of the initial bubble burst want to walk away from homes that are valued lower than they sold for 14 or 15 years ago with the excuse of being 'upside down' in equity.

to my way of thinking it's always a crap shoot buying a home-hopefully when the time comes to sell you at least break even, ideally it's gone up in value but the masses of people who are upside down not because of what they paid to purchase their homes vs. what they are valued at now (recent years) but because of what they OWE just floors me. the whole 'I'm upside down so it justifies me walking away from/discharging in bankruptcy all my debts' in these situations is mind boggling.

sad thing is b/c of this mindset we are seeing younger generations taking it as an acceptable practice. I know 20/30/40 something's who totally buy into the concept that bankruptcy 'is common/isn't a big deal' so while i.m.ho. it should be viewed as a last ditch possibility in dire situations it's become for them just another financial planning option


I will be interested to see what happens financially over the next handful of years-we've noticed over the past 6 months to a year our mailbox getting filled up with the same type of h.e.l.o., flaky re-fi, credit card and time share solicitations that were rampant and abused in the late 90's/early 2000's.

 

[ronandannette]

Working at a university, I see this all too often. We have parents calling professors every day about grades, why their child missed class etc. I've even had a mom of a co-worker (who is 24) call to tell us why her daughter would be late for work. Our generation of parents want to make life too easy for our kids. Since these kids always have a soft place to land, they are not learning from their mistakes and gaining independence. It's the same philosophy as the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality. Young people today are not experience losing or any consequences for lazy or foolish behavior. We are really doing a disservice to these kids and our entire society is paying the price.

I pray we're not past the point of no return...our resignation to this as a culture is mind-boggling. One mid-morning a month or so ago one of my employees received a phone call from her 20 y.o. son's BOSS asking HER if she could please get him out of bed and to work within the next hour... (he had apparently no-showed for an important meeting and when they called to find him he admitted he was still in bed).

It's encouraging to see so many PP's contributing similar, common-sense advice.

 

[rigs32]

Your son is not building credit with that CC. You are building credit in his name. It's technically fraud. When your son goes to buy a car, they will think he has made payments responsibly. Except he hasn't. And he probably won't without your help unless something changes.

If your child isn't doing well in school, you writing their papers isn't appropriate. If your child is struggling at work, you don't go in and work for them.

You need to let your child suffer the consequences of his actions.

 

[barkley]

Working at a university, I see this all too often. We have parents calling professors every day about grades, why their child missed class etc. I've even had a mom of a co-worker (who is 24) call to tell us why her daughter would be late for work. Our generation of parents want to make life too easy for our kids. Since these kids always have a soft place to land, they are not learning from their mistakes and gaining independence. It's the same philosophy as the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality. Young people today are not experience losing or any consequences for lazy or foolish behavior. We are really doing a disservice to these kids and our entire society is paying the price.

to some extent I see this as a natural consequence for the manner in which many of the parents of today's 20 something's were educated in school/life when they were younger.

I remember back in the mid 80's when I was getting my teaching credential, and the big shift evolved in how we were taught to/expected to operate our classrooms. major emphasis came into being on NEVER telling a student they were giving a wrong answer-rather us having to figure out a way to verbal justify the student's even entirely nonsensical answer as being 'right/correct' if applied to something else (even totally unrelated to the subject whatsoever) and abandoning the concept of 'right' answers in favor of 'preferred'. classrooms/schools started making the big 'no one loses, everyone is a winner/gets a trophy' philosophy push, self esteem became teaching the kids not that everyone deserved the same common decency/respect/opportunities but rather-'all of you are unique, exceptional and special-and the universe owes you so don't settle for less'.

the kids taught/lived these philosophies are in large part the parent's of the 20 something's today. I've always been one of the older parents among my kid's peer group and allot of the 'helicopter' parenting I see happening with this age group is among the parents who I hear using the identical 'teach-speak' that was being used in classrooms back then (and to some extent today). from what I've observed it seems like b/c of having this kind of mindset they REALY feel/believe that despite the way the world/the economy/life in general operates-their kids are for some reason being unjustly punished by circumstances ENTIRELY not of their own doing/out of their control and until the universe correctly readjusts itself to provide for their unique, exceptional and special offspring what they are due-then mom/dad will make sure to take the taxing/stressful issues of self responsibility/accountability off the kiddo's backs.

 

[tvguy]

to my way of thinking it's always a crap shoot buying a home-hopefully when the time comes to sell you at least break even, ideally it's gone up in value but the masses of people who are upside down not because of what they paid to purchase their homes vs. what they are valued at now (recent years) but because of what they OWE just floors me. the whole 'I'm upside down so it justifies me walking away from/discharging in bankruptcy all my debts' in these situations is mind boggling.
.

I think home buying is pretty safe actually, if you look at the total picture. Guy next door lost $100,000 over 10 years, but would have paid more than that is he rented. So he actually was money ahead,

 

[DVCcurious]

My brother was the exact same way after high school. When he was 21 my parents told him he was going to move out and they'd give him no more money. He crashed and burned in the "real world" and then tried to move back in and my parents told him no way, so he joined the Navy for a 4 year stint. He got out and went to college and dropped out and kinda kicked around being a "loser" (harsh, but it is what it is) until he was about 30. Then he got a job as a mechanic at Boeing. Now he's 42 and has a decent life.

My parents tried EVERYTHING between the time he graduated high school until they kicked him out and he never changed. He didn't even try to change. He'd just listen to their money lectures and be like "right mom and dad, you're so right, I really want to change!" and then he wouldn't do jack squat. He just told them what they needed to hear so he could keep a roof over his head, gas in his car, and keep the party train rolling.

I remember talking to a work colleague about this back when my brother was about 20 and the guy said to me "why would he change? He has exactly what he wants, a roof over his head, food in his belly, and enough cash to party."

Your son won't change until you kick him out. That's not just my experience talking, that's like thousands of people's experience. You are being taken advantage of. He is an adult and he needs to face adult consequences.

Unless you want him to live at home forever and you want to spend all your money bailing him out forever. But I imagine you'd like to retire some day. And you won't be able to retire if you're giving money to your kid. Someone in your family is going to crash and burn, do you want it to be you when you don't have enough money to retire at 70?

 

[Jaya]

1. He gets a $20 flip-phone with 500 minutes for about $35 a month. He pays for this. If he doesn't, the phone number shuts his service down. Bang.
2. If he has a nice car, he sells it and gets a beater. It will get him to work and home. If he doesn't have any money, he doesn't need to be cruising around. Bang.
3. If he's not paying rent, repossess his room if you don't want to actually kick him out. Turn it into your sewing room or TV room or the "naked room" (remember "Failure to Launch"?). Since he's not paying rent, he gets to sleep on the couch or on a cot out in the garage. That's where he'd be if he got kicked out....sleeping in someone's garage or on the floor. Bang.
4. You don't do his laundry, you don't buy him the shampoo he likes, he's welcome to eat with you, but YOU decide what to cook. No catering to his choices; if he doesn't like what's on the table, too bad. You don't provide food when his friends come over to watch football. If they're hungry, they can go get a pizza...IF they have the money. If he's too broke to host a party, then the party needs to move elsewhere. Bang.
5. Cancel his credit card. He doesn't need it. He doesn't deserve it. Double bang.
6. Get family counseling.

 

[JaxDad]

OP, I am sorry about your situation. My kids are younger, so I can't confidently offer much advice. In fact, you have actually helped me, giving me something to think about as I continue to raise my kids.

One thing that jumps out at me is the $400 Game Stop account. I know I'm an old guy, but that is crazy to me. It is totally discretionary. Maybe you can lay down a no-new-games rule and help him save money (and use his time more productively).

FWIW, I served in the military right out of school--Active Duty and then Reserve. I don't think I NEEDED to do so, and it's certainly not for everyone, but it helped me shape my career and life. If this is an option, he may want to look into the Guard and Reserve initially. They might offer some good education and training opportunities for him (and extra pay), while he continues to pursue his mechanic career.

 

[mousehockey37]

I created a new account just for privacy but I've been a DIS member for many years. We have a son living at home who graduated from auto mechanic school in June. He has always worked and started working full time the day after he graduated. He doesn't make much and lives at home. The problem is he always spends more than he makes. He spends tons of money on gas because he likes to drive around, on food, on his car, and other things. He will find ways to use things like PayPal or Game Stop credit to buy things but won't have the money to pay it off and then will get letters from creditors. When we talk to him he basically says he just can't help himself. So we have been trying to make things less comfortable for him at home to try to get him to curb his spending. Right now we pay for his car insurance & phone. He has to have the car for work and needs the phone in case his boss needs him to come in etc. We turned off the internet on his phone but we are having trouble coming up with other ways to get the lightbulb to turn on so he is better about spending. We do charge him "rent" which in reality we put away for him because he has zero savings. He was good about giving us the money but then had some car repair expenses and missed a few payments. We worry about his credit and we did recently pay off his $400 balance on the Game Stop bill because it was about to go to collections. He won't even sit down to discuss money with us. We are super good with money and try to give him advice but he is extremely resistant. He is impulsive with spending.

So I'm looking for advice on how to make him a little less comfortable at home so he feels like he wants to pay us for the bills we laid out money for and his "rent" so he can get XYZ back. I'm doubt turning off his internet on the phone will be enough. We could say no more friends over. I'm not sure what else to do. Any ideas? Thanks in advance.

If he's not capable of curbing his own spending, there's not much anyone else can do. That said, I'll try and offer up a few ideas.

He lives at home. Your house, your rules. It's "in the lease" lol. So, you should set up and appointment with him and discuss finances. If he fails to attend this meeting, then he is a candidate for finding his own place. Should he attend, you have to be blunt and put it to him. I would find a way to stop the GameStop credit and paypal. Make him get a copy of his credit report (which can be done for free) and go over items on it.

There overwhelmingly has to be a time where you set him up to have the lightbulb pop on, or you turn it on for him. Sometimes tough love is the way to go. No one wants to see their kids tank their credit score, but maybe letting him get a call or two from a collection agency might not be a bad thing and yes, you can still avoid a credit hit even with stuff early on in collections.

My parents taught me well. You take care of your necessities and bills first, then incorporate something into savings (living check to check can make this hard, but it's possible) then anything after that is what you want to do with it. I'm into photography, I would love to have a better, faster camera with all the really good lenses to go with it, BUT... if I don't have a roof over my head, food on the table and all my bills paid, the camera isn't going to do me any good. So in your situation, you could technically take the gaming system as "compensation" for the missing rent. It's hard to buy video games and play them if you don't have a system to play them on... Just an idea.

As far as spending habits on him eating out, a good way I like to show a difference is when I pack lunches vs. people that eat out everyday. I get a pound of lunchmeat, loaf of bread, case of soda, fruit snacks and something like a box of little debbie snack cakes and that's my lunch for the week. Lunchmeat runs me about $4, bread $2-4, case of soda at BJ's $9, fruit snacks $6 at BJ's, snack cakes around $2. Divide that up and it's pretty cheap to eat everyday for lunch. Yes, it's boring and doesn't change for a week, but it's a lot better than going out and eating McD's, Burger King or whatever else everyday.

So, you guys are good with spending, time to show some tough love on how it's done right. If he still doesn't want to listen after that, then it's his life, send him on his way.. he'll learn one way or another.

 

[roadtripper]

OP, I am so sorry for what is going on with you and your family. Many previous posters have offered really good advice about letting him fail, but that is very hard to do, I know. As a Mom with a DD who is 21, I feel your pain. DD pays her cell bill ONLY, but has been behind (to me) several times. She is a senior in college on a full tuition scholarship to a prestigious school, which is a blessing in many ways, but she feels like the poor kid with friends who can drop 100 on a Friday night and not blink. Despite growing up in a frugal household, she spends every dime she makes. Anyway...that's our story--on to yours.

The best we can do for our kids is to help them get by in the world on their own. DD will move home this summer for a few months, but I hope that it will be sufficiently unbearable (What time are you coming home? Who is driving?) that she will want to move out. If not, I have plans B, C, and D ready to put into action. Have a plan B, C, and D. Tell DS what they are. Follow through. Good luck.

 

[Marionnette]

If he's not capable of curbing his own spending, there's not much anyone else can do. That said, I'll try and offer up a few ideas.

He lives at home. Your house, your rules. It's "in the lease" lol. So, you should set up and appointment with him and discuss finances. If he fails to attend this meeting, then he is a candidate for finding his own place. Should he attend, you have to be blunt and put it to him. I would find a way to stop the GameStop credit and paypal. Make him get a copy of his credit report (which can be done for free) and go over items on it.

There overwhelmingly has to be a time where you set him up to have the lightbulb pop on, or you turn it on for him. Sometimes tough love is the way to go. No one wants to see their kids tank their credit score, but maybe letting him get a call or two from a collection agency might not be a bad thing and yes, you can still avoid a credit hit even with stuff early on in collections.

My parents taught me well. You take care of your necessities and bills first, then incorporate something into savings (living check to check can make this hard, but it's possible) then anything after that is what you want to do with it. I'm into photography, I would love to have a better, faster camera with all the really good lenses to go with it, BUT... if I don't have a roof over my head, food on the table and all my bills paid, the camera isn't going to do me any good. So in your situation, you could technically take the gaming system as "compensation" for the missing rent. It's hard to buy video games and play them if you don't have a system to play them on... Just an idea.

As far as spending habits on him eating out, a good way I like to show a difference is when I pack lunches vs. people that eat out everyday. I get a pound of lunchmeat, loaf of bread, case of soda, fruit snacks and something like a box of little debbie snack cakes and that's my lunch for the week. Lunchmeat runs me about $4, bread $2-4, case of soda at BJ's $9, fruit snacks $6 at BJ's, snack cakes around $2. Divide that up and it's pretty cheap to eat everyday for lunch. Yes, it's boring and doesn't change for a week, but it's a lot better than going out and eating McD's, Burger King or whatever else everyday.

So, you guys are good with spending, time to show some tough love on how it's done right. If he still doesn't want to listen after that, then it's his life, send him on his way.. he'll learn one way or another.

It sounds as if the OP has already tried the teachable moments approach to financial responsibility and all that her son hears is BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

 

[mousehockey37]

It sounds as if the OP has already tried the teachable moments approach to financial responsibility and all that her son hears is BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

Then adios kiddo... Let the real world wake him up and then when he comes crawling back home, I'd have him on a strict financial plan, but let him go fail first.

 

[starry_solo]

just be aware-if you take a stance on this and your son rebels-you may end up in the same boat my mom who was the great enabler to one of my brothers did-b/c you supposedly were charging 'rent' to your ds he is legally your tenant-with all the same legal rights as any tenant. a tenant you cannot ask to leave/force to leave/lock out of your home-but requires a timely, costly legal eviction (and for whom a sympathetic judge may award financial damages from you).

This actually depends on the jurisdiction. If it's renting a room in a house in which the landlord resides, it's different (at least in CA).

But to go back to the original inquiry, a lot of great advice has been given. Only you can choose whether to listen to the advice.

 

[disneychrista]

The best way to help your son is to NOT help him. He is an adult and he has to live with the consequences of his actions.

 

[amylevan]

Well in a way he pays for the phone with his "rent". He is supposed to give us $400 a month. He was good about it for a while but then, well, not so much because he had some car repairs to pay for. He has only been full time since June and was really not making much at all in the beginning. He got a 50% raise a couple of months ago which put him at the edge of poverty lol!

He's working full time and from what I'm reading has essentially no rent ($400 is nothing and he missed several for car repairs), no phone bill, and no car insurance bill.

IMHO, I'd tell him that you are no longer charging rent (especially since he's already missed payments with basically no repercussions) but you are also no longer paying for his car insurance or phone or any of his other bills. Offer to help him set up a budget, but if he's not interested, you are just going to have to step back and let him fail.