Help me keep this in perspective

[ckay87]

It's getting to where parents actually fear another adult influencing their child in any manner whatsoever, whether it's good OR bad. It's unreal!

And I'd like to respectfully disagree with this, at least for myself. I'd love nothing more than vast, varied, and plentiful positive influences for my boys.

 

[FinallyBoughtDVC]

As the incident is described though, it doesn't qualify as a spanking. It was a "move along" swat.

I wonder if people call the cops everytime someone slaps them on the back and says "atta boy."

People's inability to discern a true spanking from a swat from an all-out beating is really pretty astonishing.

There's a big difference between someone patting me on the back and saying, "Great job" and someone smacking me on the *** and telling me to get a move on.

If I did that to one of my teenage employees - I'd rightfully be in big trouble.

At the very least this was completely inappropriate.

I am shocked that even parents who believe spanking their children is okay think it's okay for someone else to lay a hand on their child. It just blows my mind. This isn't removing a splinter, this isn't giving a kid a lift up to a water fountain - this was blatantly smacking a child in the *** (with a hand, a book, a backpack, whatever) because the adult was too lazy or incompetent to get the child back on track. I think all spanking comes from laziness and incompetence on ther part of the spanker.

When does hitting someone else's child cross the line from "okay" to abuse? Who exactly determines that? It never, ever crossed my mind that I would have to tell an adult not to hit my child. I figured that was pretty much understood.

And, I would never live in a state that would allow anyone to raise a hand to my child. This country is one of a very sad minority in this world that still allow the states to decide whether or not there is corporal punishment in the schools.

Irregardless, this behavior is disgusting and this parent, who is a volunteer and scout leader herself and has NEVER had to resort to this type of abhorrent behavior, is rightfully upset and should, at the very least, lodge a formal complaint with the organization.

An adult hitting a child - disgusting and pathetic. I just can't believe people think this is okay.

 

[ticktock]

It's amazing how split down the middle this is.

Here's what else I'm thinking. I know some of you are thinking "oh for crying out loud, he's 11, he can handle it." But my thinking is that because he's 11, it is that much more inappropriate... and yucky His armpits are getting stinky, he's learning about girls/guys, etc. He's teetering on young adulthood here.

As an adult, how does it feel when a stranger comes in contact with your rear end? Angrily? Playfully? Teasingly?

Yes after you posted that he was 11 I thought it was a bit strange. 6 to 8 maybe, 11 - that's kind of weird.

I also thought I would have been alot more peeved at DS for running after a stick at that age. Sorry, but my DS would have gotten an earful from me for that type of behaviour at that age. Not playing with sticks (he still does at 13, so do I) but for disobeying and delaying the group for something so trivial. Not that my DS doesn't STILL do stupid stuff, boys .

 

[hentob]

Our local troop just lost their charter because of an "innocent spanking"

 

[Merriwind]

Inappropriate? Probably.

Call the police? Never.

Let her/him know? Sure, if I thought it would make me feel better.

Report her/him to the authorities? Only if I truly believed that this behavior rises to the level of having this person leave BSA altogether, that his/her troop would be better off without that leader.

I really agree with the "it was a let's-get-moving swat crowd" Your son's a little old for that sort of shooing, but it's not a huge deal in my mind. (If this episode embarassed him, he's probably going to stay with his group next time.)

Good luck! Parenting is tough...

 

[weregoingtodw]

I'm a Girl Scout leader currently, and have been room mom, a Sunday School / youth group leader, you name it. I've never seen any type of training regarding working with youth that has NOT stressed that this type of behavior on behalf of an adult is entirely unacceptable, and places not only the perpetrator, but the entire organization in jeopardy. It's up to each of us as parents to report any behavior which we feel is unacceptable; all organizations like this have a chain of command which is followed in these types of incidents.

The problem that arises here is two-fold: first, that an adult touched a child inappropriately. And by inappropriately, children are taught from a very young age that a touch in an area that would be covered by a bathing suit is "inappropriate". Second, the fact that this young man trusted his mother enough to tell her about something; she now has to decide what to do with this information, yet some of you are basically telling her it's no big deal, and asking why she's concerned about it.

To all the oh my Goodness call, the authorities it is a big deal. Well I hope your kids don't mind not doing a thing the rest of their childhood-no scouts, no church groups, 4H you name it unless you plan on doing every activity yourself because with your "rules" no adult in their right mind would come 6 feet from your kids.

Actually, I consider myself to be rather in my right mind, and quite frankly, I'd much rather have children in my groups whose parents have that mindset.

I guess I better quit leading VBS or Scouts because heaven forbid I have swatted kids with their handbooks or my clip board or a piece of fun foam to get their attention or to get them moving most kids laugh and the parents say good for you. First they took away kids playgrounds, then the games,now an adult can't even touch another child, I'm glad I'm grown and my kids are getting older. Childhood is no fun anymore.

I'm sorry, but if I were serving in a group with you, I'd bring actions such as what you've described to the leader's attention (swatting with a handbook or your clip board). If you wouldn't do that to another adult, what makes you think you have the right to do it to another child? And I'll just say, as an adult, I'd highly advise *no one* to hit me with a clip board, especially if I've not yet had my coffee.

Seriously, though, I don't think that you would do anything to hurt a child, but the point is, I DON'T KNOW. And let's face it, as much as some of you are upset about how an adult can't "innocently" touch a child any more, many parents are just as upset that we have to worry about our children so much, just because we can't know everything about the people to whom they are exposed.

All of that to say, there is a very good reason that those in the thread who have voiced their concerns are doing so. I'm with them; this issue would cause me significant concern.

 

[katiebsmom]

OP I'm sorry that this happened whatever circumstances surrounded it. I have to say that as a child I had this happen to me a few times and honestly, it felt weird...I almost felt violted in a strange way. Dicipline from your school teacher is a very different situation than what the OP is describing IMHO. A scout leader or a SS teacher, etc are not in any position to feel free to physically "touch" your child inapropriately.

Honestly, I think I understand what the OP is feeling because I felt it too. Dicipline especially if it's on your BUTT, is a humiliating thing and frankly, I don't want just anyone issuing that (light OR hard) accept for myself or my DH (because we love OUR kids). I would feel more like a line had been crossed than weather or not it actually did any harm.

I wouldn't call the police or anything like that, but I'd definately let the swatter know "THAT AIN'T OKAY WITH MAMA BEAR!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!

 

[roliepolieoliefan]

Maybe this scout leader swatted your child because she felt she knew you and was more comfortable with your child.

I volunteer for many things at the kids school, sports etc, including scouts. I would never swat a kid on the behind, other then my own, but if my DS (9) came home from camp and described that same scenerio to me, I would have been upset at DS that he was repeatedly told to do something by a scout leader and refused to listen. The kid is 11. He should be respectful to his scout leader and know better, isn't that partly what scouts is all about.

I do think alot of you posters are making a huge deal of this. Call the police , for what? She didn't beat the crap out of him, just gave him a swat. I too think the kid was embarressed. Maybe his friends were teasing him and he said, hey I'll get her back for what she did. Mom will take care of it.

It is getting harder and harder to want to volunteer for events such as this exactly for this reason. The parents who are the first to "protect their baby bear" for the littlest wrong doings are the ones who are never available to help. Step up to the plate, then you'll see how much a pain in the butt, some of these kids can be. No pun intended.

 

[katiebsmom]

It is getting harder and harder to want to volunteer for events such as this exactly for this reason. The parents who are the first to "protect their baby bear" for the littlest wrong doings are the ones who are never available to help. Step up to the plate, then you'll see how much a pain in the butt, some of these kids can be. No pun intended.

Wow, that's quite an assumtion . This mama bear is a home room mom (for 2nd grade ), 3rd and 4th grade Sunday School teacher (class of about 20 ), nursey volunteer (for 2yo-5yo ) three times a week, Ask this mama bear and I'm there LOL!!! BTW, I've never felt free to swat any butts and I certainly have some spicy kids to deal with regularly. I just keep them close to me and make them my little helpers and that way they feel special and included and their little hands stay occupied .

 

[roliepolieoliefan]

Wow, that's quite an assumtion . This mama bear is a home room mom (for 2nd grade ), 3rd and 4th grade Sunday School teacher (class of about 20 ), nursey volunteer (for 2yo-5yo ) three times a week, Ask this mama bear and I'm there LOL!!! BTW, I've never felt free to swat any butts and I certainly have some spicy kids to deal with regularly. I just keep them close to me and make them my little helpers and that way they feel special and included and their little hands stay occupied .

Good for you. I'm not sure what you want me to say. I'm not getting into a "volunteering contest" because I have quite a bit under my belt also.

I'm speaking from my experience and from what some PP have said , theirs as well.

You would ask an 11 yo boy to be "your little helper"? This may work for the younger kids, but sorry an 11 yo boy isn't going to buy that line. As I said I wouldn't swat a kids butt either, I did state this in my post also, but what gets me is this overreaction from some of these posters. Call the police, report her to the authorities. Please, its ridiculous!

 

[Daxx]

Completely unacceptable! Even if it was a "move along" type swat, that is just not appropriate. You do not touch any child on their bottom! OK - you can touch yours or swat yours or spank yours ... but nobody else's! How can you even compare a touch on the bottom to a touch on the shoulder/upper back? When teaching a child that they have private parts, don't we teach that the bottom is considered just as private?

As a teacher, we are not allowed to touch a child on the bottom. For that matter, we're not supposed to touch a child at all, lest our actions be misconstrued. It's really tough b/c you need to comfort a child (esp. in Kdg. as is my case) and you can't be too "huggy" b/c someone is bound to misconstrue actions and that's the end of your career. I can offer a pat on the back and really shouldn't offer much more. In my school, even the "move along" type swat on the bottom (or any type of swat) would be unacceptable and could be cause for dismissal if a parent really pushed it.

As for swatting a child with a clip board, foam, a workbook, etc. to get their attention ... how about going right up to them and talking directly to them!? That's going to get their attention in a more positive way and save you from a parent who is going to bring up charges against you for hitting their child. I think any form of hitting to get attention when that child is not yours is just inappropriate!

While I wouldn't call the police, I would def. tell the "swatter" that I found her/his actions inappropriate and if it happened again w/my kid or any other, then I'd be writing a letter to the BSA. I'm sorry, but you don't swat, smack, spank any kid that isn't yours. If you have a problem w/my kid not paying attention, find an alternative way to getting his attention.

W/an 11 yo, I'd go right up to him, look him in the eye and tell him that if I had to remind him one more time to not do XYZ, then he would not be able to attend the next outing. I think something like that is a bit more in line if a child just isn't paying attention. Also, tell the parents what you said and ask them to speak w/the boy about listening and minding his scout leader. Or, I'd make him walk right next to me so that he wasn't "tempted" to going off course. Those are two ideas that won't get a leader into trouble and do not involve swatting.

 

[katiebsmom]

Good for you. I'm not sure what you want me to say. I'm not getting into a "volunteering contest" because I have quite a bit under my belt also.

I'm speaking from my experience and from what some PP have said , theirs as well.

You would ask an 11 yo boy to be "your little helper"? This may work for the younger kids, but sorry an 11 yo boy isn't going to buy that line. As I said I wouldn't swat a kids butt either, I did state this in my post also, but what gets me is this overreaction from some of these posters. Call the police, report her to the authorities. Please, its ridiculous!

Responding to your (un edited version)...of course I don't want a medal but thank you for asking LOL!!! I assumed with the mama bear comment from you that you were implying that towards me...my mistake , My point w/ the list was simply to make the point that not all of us "protective mama bears" sit idly by and then criticize those that are mentoring our children for situations like this one.

And I agree, 11YO's wouldn't dig the whole helper thing, so I don't know what I'd do in her situation other than wait it out and cool down a bit.

 

[roliepolieoliefan]

Responding to your (un edited version)...of course I don't want a medal but thank you for asking LOL!!! I assumed with the mama bear comment from you that you were implying that towards me...my mistake , My point w/ the list was simply to make the point that not all of us "protective mama bears" sit idly by and then criticize those that are mentoring our children for situations like this one.

And I agree, 11YO's wouldn't dig the whole helper thing, so I don't know what I'd do in her situation other than wait it out and cool down a bit.

Sorry about that 1st comment. it was kind of rude even for me. thats why I edited it.

Because after I wrote it, I thought hold on she thinks that mama bear comment was directed towards her. I understand not all non-volunteer mamas point fingers, but alot do. They are no where to be found when help is needed , but if Mary or Johnny scrapes their knee, she's the 1st to be in your face, asking why you weren't watching her kid better.

The comment definetly wasn't directed at you. We must have both been typing at the same time and had the same type of idea (regarding the mama bear)

Its just a gray area no matter how you look at it. I can see the OP being upset. But I would be upset at my son also for not minding the leader. Some of these posters were ridiculous in their comments. If you don't like what she did, tell her. Simple as that. Especially since you know her. Maybe her side of the story is something completely different. The OP has one side of the story (her sons) . She could have went to hit his leg, arm whatever just as a joke, he moved and she hit his butt. I don't know really, just think there are 2 sides to every story.

 

[FayeW]

I am firmly in the "this is ridiculous" camp. One swat on the backside as they are walking along does not a spanking make. No matter how you slice it, dice it and analyse it, that wasn't a spanking and it certainly wasn't battery or abuse. I am truly appalled that anyone would suggest calling the police.

I am not the least bit bothered by the age of the child on the receiving end of a playful swat. My son is nearly 11 and if he behaved inappropriately, I wouldn't have a problem with his soccer or hockey coach giving him a single swat. In fact, I would be more likely to treat a child of that age or older in that manner simply because at that age they should be able to distinguish between an actual spanking for the purpose of punishment and a "stay on track" swat. The fact that so many parents on this board are not able to make that distinction doesn't bode well for the children to be able to make a judgement call.

 

[FinallyBoughtDVC]

I am firmly in the "this is ridiculous" camp. One swat on the backside as they are walking along does not a spanking make. No matter how you slice it, dice it and analyse it, that wasn't a spanking and it certainly wasn't battery or abuse. I am truly appalled that anyone would suggest calling the police.

I am not the least bit bothered by the age of the child on the receiving end of a playful swat. My son is nearly 11 and if he behaved inappropriately, I wouldn't have a problem with his soccer or hockey coach giving him a single swat. In fact, I would be more likely to treat a child of that age or older in that manner simply because at that age they should be able to distinguish between an actual spanking for the purpose of punishment and a "stay on track" swat. The fact that so many parents on this board are not able to make that distinction doesn't bode well for the children to be able to make a judgement call.

Who is to judge whether this is a punishment or a stay on track "swat"? I wonder if this woman is so used to smacking compliance out of her own children that she just instantly lashes out without thinking - and that is what scares me. Why is one volunteer (the OP) able to keep her group in line without resorting to this behavior and the other not?

I still can't believe that people think so little of their children that they think it's okay for other adults to strike them in any manner. This wasn't a congratulatory high five, pat on the back. This was a smack in the ***.

I have teenagers that work for me - some start at 15 years old and it is their first real working experience. I can't fathom smacking one in the butt, even jokingly, as motivation to get them moving along. It's despicable and it's a sign that an adult is incapable of being an effective leader, coach, parent, teacher, whatever if they can't make their point without resorting to being nothing but an overgrown bully.

I have volunteered for years and years - never have I ever had to resort to anything like this. I have always been able to get the kids back on track. Actually, they've never really fallen off track as the rules and the repercussions were always made crystal clear at the onset. My kids have been in very precarious places on many extreme trips they have been on and they know, at the outset, they have to be responsible and follow the rules or they will be flown out of wherever they are at my expense.

I can't get past the fact that there are parents who think it's perfectly okay for an adult to hit their own children.

I find that to be totally disturbing. In fact, I find it to be absolutely neglectful. And, I guess, in the end, it does end up becoming a spanking debate - I guess the shocker for me is that there seems to be so many more who spank their kids into submission and believe it's okay for others to do the same than those who don't. What an eye opener this thread has been for me.

Glad my parents weren't like this and I'm so thankful my children have never had to encounter this.

 

[FayeW]

Who is to judge whether this is a punishment or a stay on track "swat"?

It was a single action. She didn't strike him repeatedly. She gave him a tap on the ***.

Since you have neither spanked nor been spanked I understand why it is obviously very difficult for you to make the distinction.

 

[ford family]

Who is to judge whether this is a punishment or a stay on track "swat"? I wonder if this woman is so used to smacking compliance out of her own children that she just instantly lashes out without thinking - and that is what scares me. .

Actually the tone of comments like this one and others in this thread scares me far more than the OP.

ford family

 

[ukwildcat]

Since you have neither spanked nor been spanked I understand why it is obviously very difficult for you to make the distinction.

Well, I have never spanked, but I have been numerous times. I am in the camp that there is no distinction as well. Striking by an adult is wrong.

 

[Skywalker]

I am firmly in the "this is ridiculous" camp. One swat on the backside as they are walking along does not a spanking make. No matter how you slice it, dice it and analyse it, that wasn't a spanking and it certainly wasn't battery or abuse. I am truly appalled that anyone would suggest calling the police.

I am not the least bit bothered by the age of the child on the receiving end of a playful swat. My son is nearly 11 and if he behaved inappropriately, I wouldn't have a problem with his soccer or hockey coach giving him a single swat. In fact, I would be more likely to treat a child of that age or older in that manner simply because at that age they should be able to distinguish between an actual spanking for the purpose of punishment and a "stay on track" swat. The fact that so many parents on this board are not able to make that distinction doesn't bode well for the children to be able to make a judgement call.

Totally agree with you!

I don't think you do your children (or the world) any favours by teaching them to freak out at any kind of touch by another human being. Especially at age 11, they certainly know the difference between a good touch/bad touch idea, and the difference between abuse and a harmless, move along type of swat.

I honestly think that those parents that are so upset by this action must be imagining the incident far differently than those that say no big deal.

What is going to be next? Kids getting in trouble for hitting each other when they give a high 5?

The other night at my son's karate class a mother complained that someone knocked her son down. I had to laugh when the instructor said, "Well, this is martial arts not dance class."

Come on people!

 

[NYBlue1]

Totally agree with you!

I don't think you do your children (or the world) any favours by teaching them to freak out at any kind of touch by another human being. Especially at age 11, they certainly know the difference between a good touch/bad touch idea, and the difference between abuse and a harmless, move along type of swat.

I honestly think that those parents that are so upset by this action must be imagining the incident far differently than those that say no big deal.

What is going to be next? Kids getting in trouble for hitting each other when they give a high 5?

The other night at my son's karate class a mother complained that someone knocked her son down. I had to laugh when the instructor said, "Well, this is martial arts not dance class."

Come on people!

This thread changed quite a bit from the beggining when it was a "spanking" not a run along tap as its now being described. Keep that in mind when reading the responces.