Help me feel better about this "smart" financial decision...

[blanq]

I don't post here often, but I've been mainly a lurker for the past few years. We love Disney and just got backv from our last trip three weeks ago! But now I'm in a situation and I really need some outsiders' opinions, and well, this was the first place I thought about finding those. So, here goes...

My sister is a young, single mom with two kids by two different guys. Her oldest is turning 2 this weekend, her youngest is 7 months. She has her hands full for sure. She works at Taco Bell about 20 hours a week and of course gets free daycare from the state as well as $500 a month in food stamps and energy assistance. The only bills that really leaves her with is rent, gas, and her cell phone bill. Of course, she never has any money to pay these bills. Month after month she borrows money from our mom to pay her rent, put gas in her car, buy cigarettes, etc. Our mom is in no position to loan or give her money, as she just filed bankruptcy a little more than a year ago, and is currently living with a broken stove and no refrigerator, but she tries to help her out as much as she can. Our mom was a single mom, too, so I think she sympathizes with her.

Anyway, my sister is unable to pay her rent this month (last month, due July 1) and received a 5-day eviction notice from her landlord. Our mom tried talking the landlord into waiting four additional days for the rent, but no dice. Mom does not have the money to give sister for rent as she does not get paid until next Friday so she asked me for the money. Everybody that knows me and my DH knows that our policy is that we do not lend money unless we can afford for it to be a gift. We are young (28) and are not in a perfect financial situation ourselves. I have a huge student loan (that will be paid off in 5 years, whoohoo!), car payment, rent, and a small amount of credit card debt. We have money in savings, but are certainly not in the position to be able to loan $500 or even $100 without worrying about it. But, this is not what sister sees. She sees us living in a decent house, driving nice cars, and going on vacation so thinks that we have lots of money laying around. We both work full-time at modest jobs (I'm a teacher, he works in the pressroom at our local newspaper) and will probably never be "rich". Our DD(4) is well-taken care of but not "spoiled" by any means.

Anyway, long story short (haha not really...this is getting too long!), mom is mad because I won't loan money to sister or let her move in with us for two months until she gets her financial aid check from school this fall. She says she is going to take out a title loan on her car to give her the money for rent; I don't know what to say about that. I am apparently a horrible person for not loaning her money and said that now she knows my "true colors" and she hopes that I never need anything from her in the future. She also informed me that she will be giving everything to sister when she dies, which I know is just a huge guilt trip. Obviously there's a lot of history here, as well, but I won't get into that.

So....outsiders' opinions....am I a horrible person? We do help her out in many ways, just not monetarily. At least once a month I buy each of her kids an outfit from Target, I just gave her deodorant and pads from my stockpile, just bought the older one a potty chair. We do what we can. My head tells me we did the right thing, but oh my heart still feels guilty.

I have not read any of the replies. I think you are not a horrible person at all, and you are absolutely doing the right thing by not paying your sister's rent, and I would not allow her to stay with your family either (I could see that going from a short term thing to a long term thing based on what you have told us about her) I work peripherally with the public assistance system (I am a child support supervisor), so am quite familiar with families dealing with evictions. I am not sure what the rules are in the state you and your sister live in, but in MN we have emergency assistance (can only be issued once a year) that sometimes can be used to help families facing evictions. I think it is time that your sister buck up and work 40 hours, instead of 20. She needs to find a way to support her family; it is HER responsibility and no one elses. She obviously cannot support her family working 20 hours per week, so she needs to change course. She might want to contact your local workforce center for help with her job search efforts. What is up with the two fathers of her children...are they paying child support or what is the scoop there?

 

[ceecee]

Can't she work more than 20 hours and go to college maybe? Your mom is an enabler, don't you be one too. Tell her to drop the cell phone. It kills me that these low income people have a better phone and plan than I do!

 

[MrsPete]

What about the two fathers?????

Makes me think about one of my students -- a senior girl who was very nice, but not all that bright -- who found out she was pregnant just before graduation. She was crying and saying, "The baby's father says he won't help me." I explained to her that wasn't an option available to him, and she was amazed. She didn't know -- had no idea -- that the law would force a man to pay for his child's maintenance. She was going to allow him to just walk away.

And then there are women who don't want to be involved with the father, so they write "unknown" on the birth certificate. This means they can get government money without the trouble of dealing with that old boyfriend. My cousin walked away from his child because the mother didn't want to deal with him (and she probably figured that the state was in a better position to pay than he ever would be).

Regardless, you're right: These children's fathers SHOULD be paying. Not her mother and sister, not the taxpayers. People are upset with the sister here, but she is working half-time, going to school, and raising an infant and a toddler alone. She's made bad choices and is in a big mess . . . but the fathers of those two children deserve more criticism than she does.

I am not sure what the rules are in the state you and your sister live in, but in MN we have emergency assistance (can only be issued once a year) that sometimes can be used to help families facing evictions. I think it is time that your sister buck up and work 40 hours, instead of 20.

Here the homeless shelter has "family rooms" which will hold a parent and several children. A person can only use them for a month at a time, and they aren't always available. A woman/children can stay there, have dinner every night and get sandwiches for lunch the next day, and their clothing is washed for them. They have to clear out during the daytime (the idea being that they should be working, saving towards getting out of there). While no one WANTS to move in there, it might be a wake-up call to her.

I don't see that she could work 40 hours a week . . . not with school and two kids. The real answer -- as you pointed out -- is that the fathers need to be involved financially.

 

[DCLbrideSept2009]

If this was a one-time thing, I might say yeah, consider loaning her the money. But it seems it happens EVERY MONTH... she obviously is living beyond her means and needs to figure out more PERMANENT solution, not just borrowing (well, I guess it's not borrowing if she never intends to repay, which I doubt she does) money every month. She needs to get another job, find another place to live, re-budget, QUIT SMOKING, etc... giving her money is NOT helping her at all. Tough love is what is needed here. She needs to grow up and figure out how to manage ON HER OWN. Get another job, get child support from the dads, etc. She is NOT your responsibility or your problem. She is a grown-up. She needs to act like one. And again, I can understand someone getting in a one-time bind (a big "Murphy" hits, car repairs, loss of job or something). But this is an ongoing problem that needs to be fixed another way.

 

[nunzia]

I agree with StitchBuddy completely. She has to learn this lesson the hard way. Do what you can to help out the kids, but loaning/giving her cash to bail her out will not help. If you want to do something for her, next time you pick up some clothes for the kids get her a copy of Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover and tell her to read it.

You did the right thing. Neither a borrower or lender be, especially with close friends or relatives.

Amen. I feel bad, but clearly this gal has the entitlement mentality that seems so rampant. 20 hours a week..2 kids she can't afford by 2 men who obviously aren't around? Come on..she gets from the government her child care, her food..no rent assistance? This gal needs a wake up call..sorry..and your Mom is just coming out of bankruptcy? I'd think she'd try to be out there hustling to have a second job to fix her stove and stuff. I'm not compassionless, but really, people who are takers and flat out lazy aren't having anyone do favors for them by enabling them to continue this way. I see this every day at one of my jobs and it really drives me nuts..suck it up, people, and learn to take care of yourself. I'm sorry you're in such a difficult position, it's hard to be the only responsible one in the family and I'd say offer all the emotional support you can, and help your sis with budgeting and child care while she looks for a second or different job, but as far as enabling by pouring money into a black hole, you are right to stand your ground.

 

[Karenj2]

I think you did the right thing.

A few years ago, DH and I were in a situation where I had been laid off, DH had been on LT disability for depression, and was facing a layoff when he ended his disability. Although we weren't in debt, per se, we were spending more than we earned, and were blowing through our savings. We decided to put our house on the market, however there were some things that needed to get done in order to sell the house for the best price in the declining market. BIL loaned us $20k. Now, there were a few differences from your situation:
1) He had enough money that if we hadn't repaid him, his family wouldn't have suffered.
2) He knew, from knowing us, that we'd do everything in our power to pay him back ASAP and in full, and that it was a one-time loan.
3) We cut back on everything (not down to the bare bones, but alot), and both actively looked for jobs (and got them!) DH took a job at the same place I work even though it wasn't a "high paying" job, and continued to look for a job in his former field. (We also only had one car at that time, since our other car was actually a company car.)

Once we were on our feet financially, we paid off our loan to BIL. More recently, my sister who is going through a divorce needed a place to stay with her two dogs. She is deeply in debt (partly due to soon to be ex), and so even though we originally had asked her to pay a rent, we basically let her live rent-free (she did occasionally buy groceries). In this situation we discussed the pros and cons before offering our house, because I knew that she would most likely live rent-free. She isn't a freeloader, and actively wants to get her own place (but can't until the divorce goes through because she can't take any of their furniture, home goods, etc.)

Anyway, the point of my babbling is that you know your sister & her personality, and if she isn't actively trying to get out of her situation, then giving her money will only enable her to continue to make bad decisions...

 

[GOOFY4DONALD]

What about the two fathers?????

She should be getting child support from both of them. If she is not, she should go to Social Services and have them assist her in getting the child support payments.

Or is she getting it and burning through the money?

That is a good idea except a woman in her position most likely dated men in similar positions and jobs. These men may not have a job, make minimum wage or have fathered many other children. Either way I do not see how the CS order alone will help her situation much. When I was younger many of the women I worked with were receiving less than 20.00 a week (1 actually received a MONTHLY payment of 9.00 . There are many states that don't have a minimum CS. When I was a single mother I worked 2 jobs. I wanted to go back to school but at the time I knew that wasn't going to work. I had a court ordered child support of 74.00 a month and I would usually go 9 months between checks. Now the state increased the CS and has it taken directly from his paycheck. Since that has happened I have yet to receive a payment.

 

[GOOFY4DONALD]

And OP don't feel bad. My DH and I had many struggles when we first got married. I wasn't able to work for a while and DH was laid off. We accumulated a large debt just in order to live. We didn't even make ends meet. No vacations, no eating out, no cel phones and we both drove older cars. When DH finally got the job that eventually turned into a career it took us a long time to pay off the debt. Finally, last month, DH bought a new truck. He has wanted a new truck for the last 10 years and NEEDED another vehicle for the last 5. Well he has had more than 1 relative (including his mom) tell him that it was very selfish of him to buy such an expensive truck. He should have kept his old one and bought his mom a car (she totaled hers and didn't have insurance and it was completely her fault). DH was never going to get his mom a car but that didn't stop him from feeling guity and angry.

 

[deedeecee]

I think your guilt is understandable. I mean, who wants to see family members suffer? However, you are doing the right thing. In these difficult financial times, many people are struggling. However, your sister is struggling due to the poor choices she has made and continues to make. Your mother enabling her is a short-term solution that is really not going to help in the long run.
I am in a similar situation although mine is not as extreme. We have family members that are irresponsible with their money. We are not. When we were first married, we didn't have a lot of money, but over the years, we have budgeted, scrimped and saved and managed to put ourselves in a more financially secure position. Our relatives have not. Every time they hit a bump in the road, they find themselves struggling financially. Yet when times are good, they don't save and just spend, spend, spend. Right now, they have close friends loaning them quite a bit of money. I feel a twinge of guilt, until I remember I am not here to subsidize their lifestyle!
Just wanted to share that you are not alone.

 

[u2katie]

Oh, wow, thanks for all the replies.

I agree that sister should just move in with mom, but I don't think mom wants anything to do with that. She has an extra bedroom, but ripped it apart to remodel it months ago but never finished it, so there is no flooring, only a subfloor. I asked her last night if she couldn't just get some flooring and have my brother and me come work on it this weekend, but apparently that will cost too much. She's always made it clear that once us kids moved out, that was it. It seems so hypocritical, if you ask me, but if I told her that, the fur would fly She is calling me selfish right now, but honestly, I can't even remember a time when she's ever helped me with anything after I moved out. She's never babysat (her dog barks too much when kids are there ), never helped us move, and we've never asked for money. It's a little frustrating to say the least.

Anyway, I feel much better now . Not great, but at least I know I'm not the crazy one here. I think I will look into some things for her today; I know that our local food pantry gives out rent vouchers, etc. I can hopefully give her some resources to look into at least.

I guess the thing that annoys me the most is that no matter what mom or I do this month, she's going to be in the same situation again next month. I don't know why she only works 20 hours a week, and I agree that she should be looking for something better. She is starting school in September and I think that she thinks her financial aid check will be her live-saver and that's all she'll need to work. I don't know, I can talk and talk to her about making good choices but I think she has to hit rock bottom before she gets it.

 

[Kellydelly]

I don't understand how your sister was paying the bills last month? Does she exist mostly on student loan money? I would not jeopardize your financial situation for her bad decisions. If your mom gets a title loan so your sister can pay her rent she's nuts! Keep supporting her in the way that you feel comfortable, and don't get guilted into parting with your hard earned money when you know she wouldn't spend it wisely.

 

[u2katie]

Some of you asked about the dads. Hah. The first one beat her up when she was pregnant, so she did not list him on the birth certificate and did whatever she needed to do through the court system so that he would have no rights the child. So, no child support there. The second one is sort of around, but of course has no job and still lives with his parents. Their custody/child support hearing is next month, so I don't know what will happen there, but if he's not working, then I assume there will be no child support.

 

[indimom]

Okay, the dads are out. She HAS to start working more. And look for a cheaper apartment, even if it's a one bedroom. So be it. (It's a pity she and mom don't realize that sharing expenses would probably help them both right now, but I digress.)
My sis worked full time (retail), went to college and had a son to raise (with no child support or government assistance) so it's not undoable, if your sis is willing to do it. If she can get free day care (and possibly have family pinch hit), it could be done.
I would research any and all public and private assistance sources you can find, job openings available, lower rent locations, create a sample budget, and present her with some options. It sounds like she's pretty young yet, so she just may need a wake up call from some one older and wiser. (NOT your mom-sorry but wise doesn't apply there.)
Does she even know what her financial assistance is going to be? How much of her schooling/housing/etc it will cover?? It can't be enough for everything?? She really needs some help crunching numbers.
If she wants your help, I would offer this type of assistance, and possibly some babysitting in your available time (weekends??) if she finds more work.
Sorry your family is going through such a tough time. But she's got to take the initiative to change this or it's only going to get worse.

 

[DawnM]

Agreeing with others here. "Helping" her isn't really helping her in this situation. It is putting a band-aid on the inevitable. She has made some very poor decisions but doesn't want to live with the consequences.

So sorry. Family junk stinks.

Dawn

 

[crabbygal902]

Your job is to take care of YOUR family; her job is to take care of HER family.

You are helping as much as you can without hurting your own family's resources. Don't listen to your mom (I know that's hard.) If you mom chooses to help her, then that's her business. We're not talking about a one-time loan here. Your sister would become your responsibility, and you've already got responsibilities to take care of.

You are a good person.

 

[a_sailor's_wife]

Nope, not horrible at all. If your mother continues to support her, your sister will continue to expect it. What would happen if your mother and sister moved into together? Is that possible? They could then share the responsibilities of rent, electric, and so forth until they are both up and going. Is it possible for her to work more hours? Has she looked into jobs elsewhere?

Also, I'm with you...I don't loan money unless I can afford for it to be a gift.

 

[BusyMom2Three]

I'm sorry I don't have time to read this whole thread, but I wanted to tell you I am in a very similar situation (constantly). My much younger sister is single with 2 kids from 2 different men (ages 2 & 6). She works at a drug store. She had no car insurance, so when she wrecked her car recently, she now has no car, plus she was ticketed for not having insurance. She is very immature and does nothing to improve her or her children's lives. We ONCE co-signed for her so she could have a nice apt near us in a good area. (She should have been able to afford it; it was within her budget). She defauted on the pymts, so we were sued. Thankfully, after several very stressful months of hounding her while I had a newborn (stressful enough), my mom and I miraculously got her to go into the company's attorney and make a settlement that she would pay with her tax return and the case against us was dropped. It was for about $1500 plus legal fees. I will never loan her anything again. If she got extremely desperate, I would make sure the kids had food, but that is it. (I also give them our hand-me-down toys and clothes so they have nice things). We are on a very strict budget, my sister also brought up the fact that we have more than her (house, 2 newer vehicles, go to Disney, etc). However, we do not have enough to give away and not get back, like you. My mom is also not in the position to pay her bills. A couple weeks ago, she finally had to move in with my mother. I hope your sister can do the same thing. My sister is back in college now, although she has done this a couple times before and not finished. I just wanted to say I can understand and feel that you are in the right to protect your family. Don't make the mistake we did. We were almost majorly screwed by that lawsuit.

I should add that my sister thinks no one loves her, helps her, does anything for her--and my mother is the same way. And I can steer her toward as many free services as possible but she is too lazy to follow through (this includes free preschool, free daycare, food stamps, WIC, etc). And when she moved in with my mom, she went form working 5 days a week to 2. She is lazy. It is hard to give up on fixing one's family, and being the one who is expected to fix everything and given a guilt trip when you give up on people who never change. I don't have any great advice on how to do that, because I am in the same boat.

 

[midwestdee]

For the love of God, do not give your loser sister one penny or let her move in with you. Her 2 kids didn't come from a cabbage patch - let her call the losers that fathered them for money and a place to stay. You have a responsibility to your child first and foremost. If you aren't careful, your family situation will poison your marraige and your child's future. What your mom decides to do is her business - but what you do is yours. Good luck - don't give in - your sister will bleed you dry for the rest of your life, unless you draw a line in the sand now! God bless!

 

[TxRabbit]

There are many ways to help your sister in her situation beyond giving her money. It can be harder to do, costing you time and effort, but if you have a willing heart to help within your ability, and this is what you have to give, then that's the way it is. You can't give what you don't have. If you don't have extra money, you just don't. To people literally living paycheck to paycheck, the concept of extra money is different than to someone who is living with a budget with accountings for future events.

Unfortunately, it sounds like your sister is most happy with handouts and doesn't really want to apply herself to do things that could help her. She sounds very irresponsible. You can't really help someone that doesn't want to be helped. In these cases, as hard as it may be, you may have to watch her hit rock bottom to see her get motivated for change.

I would hold fast to how you can help and what you are willing to do. I would communicate this with your sister so that if she is ever willing to let you help her with money management, she knows there's an open door there. Try to stay away from judgement and condemnation. Hopefully, soon, she will realize that she needs to change and that's when you can really teach her to fish (to quote that analogy) because giving her a fish today will not do anything for her in the long term.

 

[4HppyCamprs]

Well I am a little late in this reply so I am sure that you have already made peace with whatever your decision turned out to be. I just wanted to point out to the people who said that you should just lend the money to your sister for the few days til payday that even at payday you more than likely would not get your money back. I have seen this too many times and if the person cannot afford their current bills there is little chance that they could afford paying their most current bills and a back loan. If the money is already stretched as far as it will go it will not stretch any further and the lender will be left on the hook. This is the prime reason that the OP's motto for lending money is so sound. The "loan" to a person who needs daily living expenses met with that money is probably going to end up as a "gift". Out of ordinary expense loans have a much better chance of being paid back. Anyways I agree with the other op's she should call human services and apply for emergency housing or emergency rent..unfortunately my mother had to utilize these services when I was young.