Half the street shuttered – Now that’s MAGIC!!

[SnackyStacky]

NOW I've got something to say!!!

You asked me where I got that statement? You were correct in assuming I paraphrased (and cleverly reworked) your philosophical signatory refrain.

I did so to emphasize the fundamental difference between what a founder intends their mission statement to be and what the general public interprets that to mean.

My comments which followed were in response to that very public who don't want to hear that you will only give them "everything you can". All they care about is getting exactly what they want - when they want - and how they want it. Unfortunately in our society we have degraded ourselves culturally to expect things rather than appreciate them. We have become intolerant.

HUH?! I completely agree with you in that we are very much a society that expects rather than appreciates, but Walt set out to give the people everything he could. I think that's pretty simple. He did it. But then, Eisner came in, and cocked it up! People only want what was given to them in the first place, taken away, and then charged MORE for! So yeah, people expect more, but it's only because of the history and precedent that Walt set up. That's like saying it's okay to give a kid one cookie and when you take it away, expect him to never want it back again!

Walt lived in a different world and I'm sure he would have an extremely difficult time appeasing the objectionable demands prevalent in this business today.

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about the history of the parks or the man himself, but I think I just read in a post in THIS thread that Walt frequently got into fights with the business side of his company. He was the dreamer, his brother the businessman. And they frequently didn't speak because Walt's brother said no to something. But who won out in the end? Walt did. And what happened as a result of Walt having it his way? The successful, one-of-a-kind place that the Disney parks once were.

This particularly struck me. By "people" I am assuming you mean potential customers. This sounds great but will do absolutely nothing in today's market. Walt's priority is to the shareholders, which directly involves the investment banking community. Like it or not, this is first and foremost who he must give everything he can. And as Mr. Viking so eloqently put it - the regulatory enviromnent of today takes all the "fun out of owning a business".

Car 1 and 2ers will repeat this argument ad nauseum but it simply doesn't fly. When you put out QUALITY, yes, the bottom line takes a temporary hit, but your long-term outcome is astonishing. You build customer loyalty, and BRAND loyalty. BUT, if you mess with the quality, the exact opposite happens. The temporary bottom line increases, but you erode the loyalty, and your long term profits suffer.

You may want to believe Walt wouldn't have made some major mistakes in trying to gain market share and increase margins and profitability in response to the demands of the omnipresent WallStreet but we'll never really know for sure. That's one of the great things about being a legend!

He didn't care about that! While it wasn't Wall Street, he had his brother in his face about that stuff. That's what his brother was for.

re: that comment about a rat's posterior -

Let's be honest - the standards have as much to do with the service as they do the ambience. "SHOW" as you like to toss around includes everything. So the question is can you change something without affecting the show? Can you add a thrill ride? Can you take a parade away? Can you reduce the portions of food? Can you add more plush? and still put on a fantastic show?

Well - from what I've been hearing around here lately the magic lives bigtime!!!!!!!! Disney is succeeding in maintaining tradition despite its' woes. That my friend means more than you can put a pricetag on. That spurns longetivity and this company knows it. The name Disney is synonomous with magic which continues to perplex me but is sustaining generations. How is this happening?

Who denies that there's magic at Disney parks? WHO denies that? Anyone? Anyone?

Yeah, that's what I thought. NOBODY!

The problem is just what you mention. The longevity. How much longer can Disney continue to make cuts and still succeed? How many more cuts do they have to make before people begin to see the magic go away? How many "straw-that-broke-the-camel's-bacl" stories are needed before Disney is sold off piece by piece?

 

[crusader]

People only want what was given to them in the first place, taken away, and then charged MORE for! So yeah, people expect more, but it's only because of the history and precedent that Walt set up.

They want what they had but they don't want to pay more. They're spoiled. They're self indulgent. They really don't care much beyond that. What was once considered a luxury has become a necessity.

But who won out in the end? Walt did. And what happened as a result of Walt having it his way? The successful, one-of-a-kind place that the Disney parks once were.

Walt did have more control if I'm not mistaken which we have truly benefitted from. But you are looking at someone who lived in a different era and ran a company in its' developmental years and hoping to find him today to run a corporate giant. It's not going to happen within one person. It will take a dynamic team to carry on Walt's legacy.

When you put out QUALITY, yes, the bottom line takes a temporary hit, but your long-term outcome is astonishing. You build customer loyalty, and BRAND loyalty.

This sounds wonderful in theory but its' not what's being sold to me or you anymore. Every brand has been diluted and retooled with less expensive component parts. Disney couldn't avoid dealing with its' suppliers peddling cheap merchandise unless they were willing to charge all of us far more than we could afford for a vacation. Where I see people here drawing the line is twenty-five years ago - completely intolerant of change.

 

[SnackyStacky]

They want what they had but they don't want to pay more. They're spoiled. They're self indulgent. They really don't care much beyond that. What was once considered a luxury has become a necessity.

I think you missed the high point of what I said earlier......Disney guests are being charged MORE for less. Instead of keeping prices the same while all these cuts are made, they've been raised! Spoiled? You better believe it! That tends to happen when you've been given the best! Self-indulgent? Hell no!

Walt did have more control if I'm not mistaken which we have truly benefitted from. But you are looking at someone who lived in a different era and ran a company in its' developmental years and hoping to find him today to run a corporate giant. It's not going to happen within one person. It will take a dynamic team to carry on Walt's legacy.

You're right. And the micromanagement that goes on is a dynamic team? The fact that they've completely abandoned the philosophy is going to carry on the legacy? How?

This sounds wonderful in theory but its' not what's being sold to me or you anymore. Every brand has been diluted and retooled with less expensive component parts. Disney couldn't avoid dealing with its' suppliers peddling cheap merchandise unless they were willing to charge all of us far more than we could afford for a vacation.

Wow. I think that speaks volumes. It was about quality. And there still are business that run with the philosophy that quality breeds loyalty. Don't think so? Check out JetBlue sometime. A service-based company that puts forth top notch service, for fair prices. I'm certainly glad that you're not a business owner with whom I'm doing business.

Where I see people here drawing the line is twenty-five years ago - completely intolerant of change.

There's nothing wrong with change. UNLESS that change is in the philosophy....the very HEART of the company.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"I think you missed the high point of what I said earlier......Disney guests are being charged MORE for less. Instead of keeping prices the same while all these cuts are made, they've been raised!" ***

Whenever I read things like this, I try to apply it to me. And I'm sitting here trying to think of where this is happening.When I think of MORE for LESS, things like 1 lb cans of coffee that are now 13.5 oz selling for more. Or 12 oz soda cans that are now 11oz. Or those big air filled bags of potatoe chips. Then I think of what I'm paying MORE for the SAME. Gallon of gas,gallon of milk,car rentals,heating oil,electricity,taxes. Now it gets real tough, SAME for SAME and LESS for SAME...drawing a blank.Lastly, LESS for MORE. That's easy,computors. Now what catagory do I place Disney.

Well, how about staying on property. Rooms are pretty much all discounted. I would say thats a pay LESS for MORE or SAME, maybe I add a nite and still save a few bucks. AK has/had meal Certs, a great value, so thats LESS for SAME. There's a current rumor that MK will also try this. How about the FTP, pretty unbelievable deal. Ah, the chicken fingers. If in fact the chicken portion is smaller, your still not paying MORE for LESS because the price didn't go up. Its a SAME for LESS. Not exactly what I'd like to see, but at least they didn't raise the price. The one day park admission did just recently go up $2.00, which basically matches US/IOA and SW, but that is more an inflationary increase- CM's do get pay raises- no different then me raising my shop rate every year. So what am I getting less of now that I'm actually paying more for and how is it negatively affecting my vacations ? There are less parades and fantasy fireworks, but I do get to see them, I just have to actually read the schedule of events now so I know when to be there.Even if they had a parade every day I still wouldn't see them all.Can that be interpreted as paying for something I don't even want?Bottom line,I don't feel cheated. Less park hours: This is tough for me to put a value on because summer time hours till midnight have never been an experience for me. Closest I come is MVMCP. When we were there in May it was incredibly hot, first time we've actually experienced summer type heat, and I commented about understanding why people that come in the summer are upset by the reduced hours because it would be great to spend all afternoon at a pool and still have till midnight to play in the parks. Ill give you that lower hours in the summer heat stinks but as for MORE for LESS, yes it applies but the actual $$ expense is minimal.

For me, I don't feel I'm being charged more for less. I still believe I get great value and a value that is holding it's own against the other things I pay for in the real world.

 

[hopemax]

I like exploring DL's History, and so I have a bunch of park maps floating around. A friend just gave me one from her May trip to DL.

I decided to add up the attractions and entertainment as listed on the map:

53 attractions, Fantasmic!, day parade, fireworks show. Now, I didn't count the DL railroad 4 times, even though it's listed that way. But I did count TSI as one attraction and the rafts as one because that's how they are listed on the current map. So 56 things.

2001 - 55 attractions + Fantasmic!, parade, fireworks for 58. However, on this map the rafts to TSI and the island were considered as ONE attraction (and earlier years), so if I'm going to compare to 2003, I feel like I have to subtract one from the 2003 total.

So

2003 - 55
2001 - 58
1998 - 56 + 3 = 59
1994 - 58 + 4 (Fantasmic!, day parade, NIGHT parade, fireworks) = 62

Between 1994 and 2003 DL suffered a net loss of 7 attractions or major entertainment.

Those 7 things may not be a big deal to you individually, but can you understand why the loss of those 7 things may translate to "paying more for less" for someone else?

 

[KNWVIKING]

Like I said,I try and apply what I read here to how it affects me. I don't keep score with the plus and minus counts -not that I don't appriciate your DL research- to determine if I'm getting more for less at WDW. I use my experience during and after the fact. So far, despite all I have ever read on these boards, I have a great time at WDW and feel I'm getting more then my monies worth. I've never gotten home, added up the expense and said "&#@*, that was a waste".

 

[KNWVIKING]

.... It seems even more bizzare after reading this"

***Some dining news for a change, Disney will be increasing the days of operations for some of its more popular counter service restaurants. The ABC Commissary is going back to being open 7 days a week as of June 8th. The Backlot Express is going back to being open 7 days a week on June 15th. Both had been operating on a limited schedule.***

 

[Pinnie]

Does anyone wonder yet if this has to do with getting staff hired, trained and up to speed??

pin

 

[blackshirt]

Quote "Whenever I read things like this, I try to apply it to me. And I'm sitting here trying to think of where this is happening."

Yes, I agree, you have absolutely no conception of why OTHER people go to the parks. To have such a self centered attitude, is well, indicative of of a disfunctional worldview. ME, ME, ME , It does't affect ME so screw it.
Perhaps, you may someday realize that the absence of "common people" from WDW might have an effect on YOU(ME in your post)

 

[ThAnswr]

>>>>(the good citizens of the state of Florida paid for your ability to flush a toilet in WDW),<<<<

I knew my tax dollars were going down the crapper.

Btw, I just got back Wednesday from a 6 day stay at WDW.

If the truth be told, all I can say is something was different and I have yet to sort out how.

 

[crusader]

Blackshirt you can turn that right around and apply it the other way. All those who keep saying ME, ME, ME. Give it to ME, ME, ME no matter what it takes because I'm so self centered I could care less.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***Yes, I agree, you have absolutely no conception of why OTHER people go to the parks. To have such a self centered attitude, is well, indicative of of a disfunctional worldview. ME, ME, ME , It does't affect ME so screw it.
Perhaps, you may someday realize that the absence of "common people" from WDW might have an effect on YOU(ME in your post) Maybe not. BTW, when disasters occur, do you thank God it was "THEM and not me". I think I already know the answer. What a twisted way of going through life.***

First,and most importantly, I absolutely thank God when disaster doesn't directly hurt me. I also pray for those it did.

Now to the trivial stuff. "common people" ??? Sometimes I think I'm the only common person on this board because I have no pretense of knowing how to run a mega billion dollar company. I fix trucks for a living.

I also question things I read and apply them to my life-nothing selfish about that. So when I read More for Less, I wonder if thats true. To me it is not.

And where do I not consider how others vacation or question the validity of how they do. After experiencing high temps in May, I conceded a point about summertime hours being more important then I had originally thought. Airlarry gave a real life experience on why the early store closing affect his vacation, a point I gladly conceded,not discount.

Give me real facts and reason why something is wrong or bad and I will accept your position and opinion. Don't tell it's wrong just because it was never that way before or that Walt never would have done it.

And don't ever assume you know me or how I am !

 

[hopemax]

Yes, I used DL as an example, but the same thing could be done at the Magic Kingdom, it's just those park maps weren't sitting next to my computer. You may not keep score that way, but others might. Others may look at the quality of the replacement attractions, others the quality of the merchandise, the quality of food, others the park hours. And other's like ThAnswr may leave with just a feeling that something isn't right.

I'm not asking you to change your mind and agree that yes "guests are paying more for less." I'm asking if it's possible for a guest to reach the conclusion that they are paying more for less WITHOUT being considered a spoiled brat?

Is it possible, that they just went through the same process that you did, but because of their personal likes, dislikes they simply reached a different conclusion?

 

[KNWVIKING]

Absolutely.

 

[hopemax]

That's great to read, because sometimes, that's not the impression that I get (other posters, not you, but it's nice to see someone say it).

 

[blackshirt]

Originally posted by crusader
Blackshirt you can turn that right around and apply it the other way. All those who keep saying ME, ME, ME. Give it to ME, ME, ME no matter what it takes because I'm so self centered I could care less.

Crusader, I disagree, the relationship that exists between my family and WDW is not based on a contract(in most cases, AP's not included) As a company, Disney has a self interest obligation to try and win my affection. Where do I have any obligation to Disney to support them forever? When they fail, and they HAVE been failing in the last few years, is it any wonder that I go looking elsewhere for entertainment??? In answer to the quote, if Disney can no longer make a handsome profit off their theme park operations( Huge profits, every year) perhaps it would be better if they sold them to someone who could( Variation of the theme "if you don't like , don't go" or "if you don't like DVC, sell")

 

[crusader]

As a company, Disney has a self interest obligation to try and win my affection. Where do I have any obligation to Disney to support them forever? When they fail, and they HAVE been failing in the last few years, is it any wonder that I go looking elsewhere for entertainment???

Absolutely. (I was hoping to circumvent a downward spiral) As I've said on this thread, they need to re-establish credibility to win back customers. Despite Disney's recent efforts, I doubt things will ever be restored 100% and wonder when it will be considered enough.


And Hope, please try to understand that I never added the word "brat" to my statement regarding most American's being spoiled. This behavior is seen everywhere and does not just apply to Disney.

 

[SnackyStacky]

Well, how about staying on property. Rooms are pretty much all discounted. I would say thats a pay LESS for MORE or SAME, maybe I add a nite and still save a few bucks.

How ABOUT staying on property. What you're saying is that it's okay for Disney to charge more, as long as they offer you a discount?! HUH?!?

Disney built up their hotel properties at such an astonishing rate, that they've only now come to realize that it was too fast with the ridiculously delayed Pop Century. Because of ALL that expansion, you're paying....ta da!! MORE FOR LESS!

Now, I won't even get myself started on how I can get a deluxe size room with deluxe amenities for Disney's "value resort" pricing off-property, because I know I'll hear about the "magic" that's available at the Disney resorts. But look amongst the resorts themselves.

For one night, peak season, rack rate, standard view at the Caribbean Beach, including taxes, total would be $160.56. The rooms at the Caribbean Beach are 340 square feet. (Which, by the way is the same size as a standard room at the Wilderness Lodge...and one night, peak season, rack rate, standard view at the Wilderness Lodge goes for $221.89). For one night, peak season, rack rate, standard view at Coronado Springs, including taxes, total would be $160.56. The rooms at Coronado Springs are 314 square feet. Seems like you're paying same for less, right?

Break down by square footage. Per square foot of room space:

Caribbean Beach: $.47
Coronado Springs: $.51

SO, for two hotels, both supposedly offering the same, or at the very least similar amenities, you're getting LESS space FOR MORE money at Coronado Springs. Less for more. See?

AK has/had meal Certs, a great value, so thats LESS for SAME.

I'm unfamiliar with said certs. I'm assuming you mean some sort of discount or free meal certificate? So once again I say....it's okay to jack up the rates as long as a certain few have a discount to get it for a better rate?

How about the FTP, pretty unbelievable deal.

Sure is an unbelieveable deal. It's amazing how it's the first discount that Disney has advertised on such a huge scale. Have you ever seen ads for discount codes before the fairy tale package? I hadn't. Me thinks something stinks in the land of Disney.

Ah, the chicken fingers. If in fact the chicken portion is smaller, your still not paying MORE for LESS because the price didn't go up. Its a SAME for LESS.

Once again, that's the surface. Break it down. I've never bought chicken fingers, so I don't know prices, nor do I know how many they gave you. But suppose it was 5 fingers for $5.00. Now it's 4 fingers for $5.00. Originally, they were $1 per finger. Now, they're $1.25 per finger. LESS for MORE.

Not exactly what I'd like to see, but at least they didn't raise the price.

See the above math. They did raise the price. It just doesn't look like it on the surface.

The one day park admission did just recently go up $2.00, which basically matches US/IOA and SW, but that is more an inflationary increase- CM's do get pay raises- no different then me raising my shop rate every year.

I see.....you're back into that mode of "it doesn't affect me, so it doesn't matter". Does it matter that that $2 increase went into effect for the off season too? When there's one parade an evening, maybe ONE Spectromagic a week, MAYBE 1 Fantasy in the Sky display per week, closed Carousel of Progress, and drastically reduced hours? So that's the less for same? Nope, less for more. Break it down by park hour, by attraction....break it down however you want, but it still works out to LESS for MORE!

So what am I getting less of now that I'm actually paying more for and how is it negatively affecting my vacations ? There are less parades and fantasy fireworks, but I do get to see them, I just have to actually read the schedule of events now so I know when to be there.

Do you work for Eisner? That sounds like his rationale.

Even if they had a parade every day I still wouldn't see them all.Can that be interpreted as paying for something I don't even want?

You can interpret it however you want to, but when Joe Blow takes a trip in January and doesn't get to see Fantasy in the Sky because there was only one weekend showing, and he left on Saturday morning, yup! He's getting less!

Bottom line,I don't feel cheated.

Mention of the bottom line, AND self-reference! You DO work for Eisner!!!!

Less park hours: This is tough for me to put a value on because summer time hours till midnight have never been an experience for me. Closest I come is MVMCP. When we were there in May it was incredibly hot, first time we've actually experienced summer type heat, and I commented about understanding why people that come in the summer are upset by the reduced hours because it would be great to spend all afternoon at a pool and still have till midnight to play in the parks. Ill give you that lower hours in the summer heat stinks but as for MORE for LESS, yes it applies but the actual $$ expense is minimal.

Here, you ADMIT to less for more (at least I think you meant to....you got it backwards), but then justify! So it's okay for them to do it because the expense to the consumer is minimal?!?!?!?!!? There shouldn't be ANY expense to the consumer! If you're gonna give them less, CHARGE THEM LESS!

For me, I don't feel I'm being charged more for less. I still believe I get great value and a value that is holding it's own against the other things I pay for in the real world.

Good for you. Now about the other tens of millions of visitors who go to Disney World, or rather, by attendance figures, I should say: "about the other millions of visitors who AREN'T going to Disney World anymore".....

 

[Another Voice]

"Like I said, I try and apply what I read here to how it affects me."

A perfectly attitude to take as long as your only concerned about yourvacation.

But some of us our worried about our children's.

The very, very, very simple fact of the matter is that millions of people no longer consider "Disney" a place that provides them with a pleasant experience for the money. The downturn in attendance at WDW has been much steeper and much longer than any drop in Florida attendance ever (and they've been through crises far worse than 9/11 – and why has everyone else recovered and not WDW). In Anaheim Disney has been unable to convince its most loyal fans to drive twenty minutes even when the give the park away for free.

Yes, I know you have a spiffy magical® time – but unless you're willing to fork over $16 billion a year for your ticket ya' better start worrying about what those spoiled, ungratelful, self indulgent "common" folk want.

 

[crusader]

unless you're willing to fork over $16 billion a year for your ticket ya' better start worrying about what those spoiled, ungratelful, self indulgent "common" folk want.

Bummer!!