Government of Canada announces one-year ban for pleasure craft and cruise vessels

[PrincessShmoo]

Viking tried...Didn't happen.

They eventually found a way to get their Mississippi River boats built and an ownership structure that met the Jones Act requirements.

Well, that would be the PVSA, not the Jones Act. The Jones Act pertains to cargo, PVSA pertains to passengers.

 

[Starwind]

Disney has pulled the 2021 Alaska cruises from their website.

 

[TXAKDisneyFan]

Not a surprise but disappointing. We had already made the decision for our family to move our Alaska cruise from this summer to 2022 even if this summers season happened.
I really do wonder how the businesses in those ports are going to survive two years of no cruise tourists :-(

They're not. Everyone up there is pretty panicked.

 

[TXAKDisneyFan]

Not for Hawaii and Alaska.
https://www.grassrootinstitute.org/2020/11/federal-pvsa-is-pilau-repeal-or-reform-it-to-help-hawaii/

I really wish people would read these articles. The Jones Act (and PVSA) has been hurting Alaska and Hawaii (and US territories) for a long time and politicians don't seem to care. In the past two days I've read countless assertions that cruise lines should just register in the US; that the inability to cruise to Alaska this summer and the resultant devastation to the Alaska travel industry and the towns it supports is solely the fault of cruise lines for flying foreign flags. It's not that simple. The ships are obviously already constructed, and simply registering them in the US wouldn't mean they automatically comply with the acts.

The Jones Act and PVSA require that ships be built in the US, which isn't feasible. "it has been decades since an American shipyard has built an ocean-going cruise ship." There are arguments that the acts preserve US shipbuilding, but the prices are exhoribant compared to foreign built ships ("built in U.S. shipyards now cost two to five times as much as those built elsewhere") and not robust anyway ("In the 1990s, when the Disney company expressed interest in purchasing PVSA-compliant ships, not a single American shipyard entered a bid.")

https://apnews.com/article/5cc3f9030afa4f27bce89651f7bdd013
A few years ago, there were several articles in our local (Alaska) news about how the Jones Act increases the cost of living in Alaska and Hawaii and negatively impacts Alaskans' ability to produce and transport goods to the rest of the world. Now obviously the PVSA combined with Canada's prohibition on cruises until 2022 will have further devastating effects on the Alaskan economy.

 

[vacationer1954]

There is another aspect to these laws... not only must the ships be American-built and American-flagged, but they also need to be American-crewed. I think a winning argument can be made for relaxing the requirement - at least in the PVSA - for the ships to be American-built (on the basis that the basis for that requirement, that it protects the American ship-building industry, clearly doesn't hold water for the reasons you mentioned), but what kills efforts to change things is trying to attach to relaxation of the requirement that the ships be American-crewed.

 

[dvcdisney]

Disney has pulled the 2021 Alaska cruises from their website.

Notice it as well... I guess we'll just have to wait for the announcement...I'm not surprised. I have a placeholder that will expire this year so I'm hoping DCL will extend it for next summer. I guess I'll have to wait until they announce then next set of itineraries.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

I think you really have to look at the Jones Act and the PVSA slightly differently. The Jones Act is shipping, and continues the impacts of imperialism on places like Puerto Rico and Hawaii, around essential goods. The current argument du jour for maintaining the rule is around CBP and Homeland Security.

The PVSA was also originally about coastal security - in 1886, it was in line with global precedents restricting trade along a country's coasts for economic and defense purposes. The law did not address vacation cruising as that market didn't really exist. Even luxury cruises were about transport - you couldn't do a European tour without getting over the ocean.

They have done an exception to the American-built element in the past for the PVSA. In 2004, Norwegian was granted an exemption for three ships (none of which were entirely built in the U.S.) to operate solely within the waters of the Hawaiian Islands without the need to call at a foreign port. I believe one is still in service.

The most likely exemption to the PVSA is that exemption - the ship build origin. The likelihood of waiving tax rules and labor law are really low. Under international law, ships are subject to the laws of the country where they are registered. There were a host of proposed exceptions in the 1990s that went nowhere, and a 2001 bill was proposed to allow U.S.-owned foreign-built cruise vessels to enter the domestic market for a limited time if the operators agreed to build replacement vessels in the United States. Also went poof. The lines have traditionally wanted all or nothing - let them sail foreign flagged ships under foreign labor laws between any two ports. And that has not helped their position for waivers or help.

 

[TXAKDisneyFan]

I think you really have to look at the Jones Act and the PVSA slightly differently. The Jones Act is shipping, and continues the impacts of imperialism on places like Puerto Rico and Hawaii, around essential goods. The current argument du jour for maintaining the rule is around CBP and Homeland Security.

The PVSA was also originally about coastal security - in 1886, it was in line with global precedents restricting trade along a country's coasts for economic and defense purposes. The law did not address vacation cruising as that market didn't really exist. Even luxury cruises were about transport - you couldn't do a European tour without getting over the ocean.

They have done an exception to the American-built element in the past for the PVSA. In 2004, Norwegian was granted an exemption for three ships (none of which were entirely built in the U.S.) to operate solely within the waters of the Hawaiian Islands without the need to call at a foreign port. I believe one is still in service.

The most likely exemption to the PVSA is that exemption - the ship build origin. The likelihood of waiving tax rules and labor law are really low. Under international law, ships are subject to the laws of the country where they are registered. There were a host of proposed exceptions in the 1990s that went nowhere, and a 2001 bill was proposed to allow U.S.-owned foreign-built cruise vessels to enter the domestic market for a limited time if the operators agreed to build replacement vessels in the United States. Also went poof. The lines have traditionally wanted all or nothing - let them sail foreign flagged ships under foreign labor laws between any two ports. And that has not helped their position for waivers or help.

I think that overall the changes in world commerce and travel, as well as the production of ships, has made both acts obsolete. Updated laws that better address border protection and homeland security should be written that don't impede cabotage and stunt economies. I certainly know a lot of Alaskans for whom the cost of living is simply unmanageable, and whose livelihoods have been severely impacted by the disruption in tourism.

I hope that people who were planning on a 2021 cruise to Alaska consider a land tour. Businesses are certainly in need.

 

[vacationer1954]

The lines have traditionally wanted all or nothing - let them sail foreign flagged ships under foreign labor laws between any two ports. And that has not helped their position for waivers or help.

This is the crux of the issue. We're discussing an article in another cruise forum today that seems to be saying that the cruise lines are whining that things aren't moving forward because they haven't been successful in lobbying away the requirements of the CDC's Conditional Sail Order from October. Seriously? How about complying with the framework instead?

I think that overall the changes in world commerce and travel, as well as the production of ships, has made both acts obsolete.

The arguments about production of ships makes THAT PORTION OF the acts obsolete. They don't make the other aspects of the acts obsolete. And the apparent willingness to provide exemptions for that portion of the PVSA eliminates even the need to change the PVSA for that reason.

 

[insureman]

The bottom line is if the US can temporally suspend or repeal the the PVSA it will put thousands of American and foreign workers back to work helping the global economy.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

...but only if the cruise lines stop whining about the RTS and get to work on complying with it. Right now, the big lines are whining about regulation in general, not just the PVSA. Their current position is to eliminate all rules.

 

[TXAKDisneyFan]

This is the crux of the issue. We're discussing an article in another cruise forum today that seems to be saying that the cruise lines are whining that things aren't moving forward because they haven't been successful in lobbying away the requirements of the CDC's Conditional Sail Order from October. Seriously? How about complying with the framework instead?

The arguments about production of ships makes THAT PORTION OF the acts obsolete. They don't make the other aspects of the acts obsolete. And the apparent willingness to provide exemptions for that portion of the PVSA eliminates even the need to change the PVSA for that reason.

And there are other issues (such as transport of natural gas in the case of the Jones Act) that also make them obsolete for 2021. I would contend that laws that repeatedly need to be suspended or exempted from are fundamentally flawed and either need to be amended or struck down altogether and new laws that address current issues enacted.

The fact remains that as written, the PVSA means Canada's halting of all cruise ships (over 100 passengers?) essentially kills all cruise ship tourism in Alaska in 2021. This will have a devastating effect on tourism in Alaska overall.

Like I said before, I hope tourists consider land tours to Alaska.

 

[lunaland]

The fact remains that as written, the PVSA means Canada's halting of all cruise ships (over 100 passengers?) essentially kills all cruise ship tourism in Alaska in 2021. This will have a devastating effect on tourism in Alaska overall.

Like I said before, I hope tourists consider land tours to Alaska.

We actually just cancelled our land vacation to Alaska that was supposed to happen in July. We live near Seattle so it's a quick and cheap flight for us and would have been a first trip there. But they require testing and quarantine right now. So there went our quick trip.

 

[Canadian Girl]

I called DCL yesterday to cancel one trip ask about a possible extension past may 2022 for obb credits, and had a fairly obnoxious agent tell me they already been extended for us as a favour, and won’t go past May 2022. Considering cruises have been stopped for nearly a year, and the late spring summer haven’t been released, his argument was pretty irrational and condescending. Fortunately, he is the first I have dealt with who I got negative vibes from. I thanked him and ended my call.

 

[Canadian Girl]

It’s not as good as one might thing. For example, I was told the relief applies to businesses closed in the last lockdown not ones closed since the last spring. Also, any government help will have to be repaid of course and so many choose not to apply. My husband runs a business and has a few close business friends who tried to take advantage of this relief and it’s not easy. I don’t know all the rules and issues with it, but bottom line a lot of business owners are on their own and unfortunately soon out of luck.

i am on the east coast in a province that relies on tourism and cruises as well. The ban will be hard but hoping the Atlantic Bubble reopens so local tourism can be promoted.

 

[mevelandry]

i am on the east coast in a province that relies on tourism and cruises as well. The ban will be hard but hoping the Atlantic Bubble reopens so local tourism can be promoted.

I feel like the government failed to encourage local tourism during the summer of 2020 as cases were much much lower. I hope they’ll do better this year.

 

[KMack]

We also have 10 times the population.

... and also ten times the tax base if you wanted to actually have a sustainable social safety net (including universal health care).

 

[vacationer1954]

...but only if the cruise lines stop whining about the RTS and get to work on complying with it. Right now, the big lines are whining about regulation in general, not just the PVSA. Their current position is to eliminate all rules.

Yes. There was a ridiculously biased article circulating around yesterday featuring the comments of a lobbyist trying to make it seem like the CDC was holding things up. They're not. The CDC issued the Conditional Sailing Order and now it is up to the cruise lines to comply with it. In a Senate Transportation Committee meeting on Feb. 2, the Florida Ports Council stressed that cruise lines and the ports they debark from are working hard to meet an "onerous" slew of requirements from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in order to safely set sail again in the future. Any future delay therefore is a combination of how long it will take them to do what they need to and the extent to which they drag their feet in doing so. I don't blame the cruise lines, necessarily: They may be deciding that it is better to wait it out - earn no revenue but incur less cost - than to seek to go back into operation now, incur remarkably higher costs in return for what is perhaps substantially lower revenue.

 

[DCLCrazy64622]

Maybe Disney should register one (or all) of the ships in...wait for it...the United States? If only they were an American cruise line.

That’ll never happen. It would mean paying American wages.

 

[vacationer1954]

That’ll never happen. It would mean paying American wages.

There are American cruise lines. They're surely more expensive, but they have been operating. One of them happens to be blandly called American Cruise Lines. The operate small cruise ships on the east coast, west coast (including Alaska) and along the Mississippi-Ohio and Columbia-Snake river systems.

Just for comparison, I found the cruise and cabin closest to the Neptune suite we had on a Holland America ship in early July Alaska cruise in 2018. American Cruise Lines will charge $12,070 per person, compared to $3399 per person on HAL. We spent less on our entire Alaska cruise vacation in early July 2018 (including airfare, excursions, incidentals, special meals, drinks, insurance, gratuities, AIRFARE, parking at the airport, EVEN including our cat sitter, etc.) than this American cruise line charges per person just for cruise fare for a comparable cruise in a comparable cabin.