Gap, Old Navy censor 'Christmas,'

[LuvDuke]

"Fascism: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism."


This term is worse than the Hitler references, primarily because few people really know what it means and even fewer use it correctly (not suggesting this of you, Luvduke). It certainly has a shock factor, but only because of its association with Hitler's Italian toady. But what does its use really add to the debate? Just puts people on the defensive for being mischaracterized.

I hate to get into these "my defintion is better than yours" discussions, but there are definitions of fascist that have nothing to do with a government.

Mirriam-Webster's defines a "fascist" as:

2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fascist

There are people who really are fascists and who have nothing to do with following any government. No one is being mischaracterized. I've watched Donohue in action and he is the poster child for the definition of "ignorant fascist".

Is namecalling truly namecalling when the term being used is completely accurate as a description of an individual?

Yanno, it's really hard sometimes to remember this is all about Christmas, people who receive a Christmas greeting, and then complain about that greeting because it's the wrong one. When/why have Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays/Seasons Greetings become so controversial. They beat ******** anyday.

 

[orljustin]

So, in the theme of this thread, I guess, my MIL played this song for me the other night. They're baptists. I'm sort of Jewish-Agnostic-whatever. I'm not sure what the point was supposed to be. I found the song stupid, but I think they enjoyed it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IAckfn8yiAQ

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

..., but I think they enjoyed it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IAckfn8yiAQ

apparently that was all that mattered - to them!

I'm sorry!

I don't mind pride - but that is over the line towards "in your face" and I fail to see how that is Christian....(the video - not your parents)

and, message aside, not that well done.....

 

[wvrevy]

I haven't read through this entire thread (why bother...the complaining from the christian side is always the same), but I thought you should know that the people responsible for the original e-mail - The American Family Association - are about as off-the-charts right wing radical as you can get. If it was up to those loons, there would be a national religion - their's, naturally - and any belief that differed would be a crime. Not exactly the best "source" to use to prove the "war on Christmas". Besides...it is more correct to say "Holidays" anyway, seeing as how Christians stole the celebration in the first place.

I just wish all retailers would start telling people "Happy Kwanzaa" just to tick off the Jesus Police. Can't you just imagine the outrage you'd here from loons like the AFA then?

 

[oxfordcircus]

I haven't read through this entire thread (why bother...the complaining from the christian side is always the same), but I thought you should know that the people responsible for the original e-mail - The American Family Association - are about as off-the-charts right wing radical as you can get. If it was up to those loons, there would be a national religion - their's, naturally - and any belief that differed would be a crime. Not exactly the best "source" to use to prove the "war on Christmas". Besides...it is more correct to say "Holidays" anyway, seeing as how Christians stole the celebration in the first place.

I just wish all retailers would start telling people "Happy Kwanzaa" just to tick off the Jesus Police. Can't you just imagine the outrage you'd here from loons like the AFA then?

What a breath of fresh air, Revy. Thanks for settling this debate with this thoughtful, well-reasoned and original post.

Cardaway, this bump's for you!

 

[beachblanket]

Definitions:

"Happy Holidays"

Right-wing neo cons.....Attack on Christmas

Everybody else............Happy holidays

O.K., because even though the overwhelming majority of Americans are Christian, intentionally omitting the name of one of our core holidays is necessary because we don't want to "offend" anyone by omitting their particular faith-oriented celebration.

Fine, but let's take this PC/liberal logic a step further:

New Year's Day. If you're Jewish or Chinese, it's not your New Year is it? Nope. So I bet you feel offended and left out, right?

Should we not call Martin Luther King Jr.'s Day by his name because everyone's not black?

How about Independence Day? Let's not talk about that because we may have some loyalists hanging about or maybe some visitors from the UK who would feel really offended and left out and maybe even blamed for the war.

Memorial Day. That's totally offensive to people with Alzheimer's or amnesia.

Veteran's Day. Well not everyone's a veteran. Why should non vets be left out?

Washington's Birthday. Hey, it ain't MY birthday! No one cares that much about MEEE!

Labor Day. Probably Makes people who are unemployed feel crappy about themselves.

Columbus Day. Hey, many of us think Leif Erikson got to the USA first. So talking about Columbus is just a slap in the face to all those Norse people and their descendants who might be living here.

Thanksgiving Day is offensive to people who are really, really selfish.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

Memorial Day. That's totally offensive to people with Alzheimer's or amnesia.

Now that is funny!

But I think you misinterpret the intent of those who use the term "holiday". It's not an intentional ommission. It's an acknowledgement of the multiple holidays in the month of December. Nobody is going around saying "Let's pretend Christmas doesn't exist", we are saying "Let's include non-Christians in our good wishes and/or target market".

I'm certain that if there were a holiday to honor unemployed people in early September, businesses would stop having "Labor Day sales" and start having "holiday sales" as well.

 

[cardaway]

Cardaway, this bump's for you!

Was that my holiday present?

Anyway, what most people tend to overlook, or ignore because it destroys their position, is that the vast majority of people accepting and using the term "Happy Holidays" are Chirstians. There simply are not enough of us non-Christians in this country to have it any other way.

And as I posted in the thread I started (rather than finding and bumping up this one) is that with things like custom t-shirts, it's actually the Christians keeping this whole issue going.

 

[cardaway]

But I think you misinterpret the intent of those who use the term "holiday". It's not an intentional ommission. It's an acknowledgement of the multiple holidays in the month of December. Nobody is going around saying "Let's pretend Christmas doesn't exist", we are saying "Let's include non-Christians in our good wishes and/or target market".

Bingo.

 

[Chuck S]

I am sure the Lord Jesus is humbled and happy to have the Pagan winter solstice holiday commercialized and renamed in His honor, and applauds those of you who wish to show your dedication to Him by demanding that sales clerks (who are in it for the $$) wish you a Merry Christmas. Never mind that trees, stockings, wreaths, and even giving of gifts are not actually "Christian" traditions, but also have their roots firmly planted in ancient Pagan beliefs.

Oh, and also, don't forget, the modern word "holidays" is actually a contraction of the older "Holy Days", so what is the difference?

 

[beachblanket]

Now that is funny!

But I think you misinterpret the intent of those who use the term "holiday". It's not an intentional ommission. It's an acknowledgement of the multiple holidays in the month of December.

Let's examine the critical mass of all these holidays:

- % of Americans who celebrate Chanukah (which until Jews started significantly assimilating -- circa the late 50s/early 60s -- was a minor holiday on the Jewish calendar, not involving gift giving, which is a tradition that started when baby boomer parents had to deal with their kids reacting to all the celebrations of their Christian classmates): about 2%

- % of Americans celebrating Kwanza (which is not a religious holiday like Christmas or Chanukah, it's a "cultural" celebration that didn't even exist until it was created in 1966 by Maulana Karenga, a convicted felon and Marxist political activist): at best about 4-5% (no, not all African Americans participate).

- % of Americans who celebrate Christmas (a core, major Christian holiday with roots going back to at least 1038): per Roper and Gallup, in the range of 90% (interestingly, both say more African Americans formally celebrate Christmas than Kwanza....)

Bottom line: the PC crowd here wants so called "acknowledgment" to imply equality. But it doesn't - the "other" holidays occuring around Christmas don't equate in either scale or importance, which is what makes the omission of the apparently horrific "C" word so annoying. Implying Kwanza or Chanukah are of the same social "weight" as Christmas is like saying Horace Horsecollar is of the same importance to the Disney character legacy as Mickey.

 

[Anewman]

Let's examine the critical mass of all these holidays:

- % of Americans who celebrate Chanukah (which until Jews started significantly assimilating -- circa the late 50s/early 60s -- was a minor holiday on the Jewish calendar, not involving gift giving, which is a tradition that started when baby boomer parents had to deal with their kids reacting to all the celebrations of their Christian classmates): about 2%

- % of Americans celebrating Kwanza (which is not a religious holiday like Christmas or Chanukah, it's a "cultural" celebration that didn't even exist until it was created in 1966 by Maulana Karenga, a convicted felon and Marxist political activist): at best about 4-5% (no, not all African Americans participate).

- % of Americans who celebrate Christmas (a core, major Christian holiday with roots going back to at least 1038): per Roper and Gallup, in the range of 90% (interestingly, both say more African Americans formally celebrate Christmas than Kwanza....)

Bottom line: the PC crowd here wants so called "acknowledgment" to imply equality. But it doesn't - the "other" holidays occuring around Christmas don't equate in either scale or importance, which is what makes the omission of the apparently horrific "C" word so annoying. Implying Kwanza or Chanukah are of the same social "weight" as Christmas is like saying Horace Horsecollar is of the same importance to the Disney character legacy as Mickey.

Even if 99.99% of the American populations celebrated xmas, HOW DOES saying "Happy Holidays" to persons impede their celebration in any way???
IT DOES NOT, unless those persons have serious issues.

It was not the "PC crowd" that demanded anything from a private(as in not GOV run) BUSINESS, the EXTREME RIGHT is the only group making demands from this private BUSINESS.

 

[Crankyshank]

O.K., because even though the overwhelming majority of Americans are Christian, intentionally omitting the name of one of our core holidays is necessary because we don't want to "offend" anyone by omitting their particular faith-oriented celebration.

Fine, but let's take this PC/liberal logic a step further:

New Year's Day. If you're Jewish or Chinese, it's not your New Year is it? Nope. So I bet you feel offended and left out, right?

Should we not call Martin Luther King Jr.'s Day by his name because everyone's not black?

How about Independence Day? Let's not talk about that because we may have some loyalists hanging about or maybe some visitors from the UK who would feel really offended and left out and maybe even blamed for the war.

Memorial Day. That's totally offensive to people with Alzheimer's or amnesia.

Veteran's Day. Well not everyone's a veteran. Why should non vets be left out?

Washington's Birthday. Hey, it ain't MY birthday! No one cares that much about MEEE!

Labor Day. Probably Makes people who are unemployed feel crappy about themselves.

Columbus Day. Hey, many of us think Leif Erikson got to the USA first. So talking about Columbus is just a slap in the face to all those Norse people and their descendants who might be living here.

Thanksgiving Day is offensive to people who are really, really selfish.

Absolutely completely apples & oranges here. Happy Holidays incorporates the non Christian holidays that take place in the same month (actually within the same latter part of the month) as Christmas. It has nothing to do with people feeling bad. It's acknowledging people other than Christians are celebrating a religious/spiritual/cultural holiday and they might be buying gifts for that purpose.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

you know - we keep getting the 90 - 95 % of people are Christians/Celebrate Christmas excuse for why the rest of us should be ignored or have no weight....yada, yada,yada

my take is: Given these numbers: if Christ is disappearing from Christmas, how much sense does it make to blame the disparate 5% of pagans, atheists. jewish individuals, etc???? Doesn't it make more sense to look at yourselves and ask what might be lacking? I think the whole war on Xmas is a load of crap. Isn't there something about before you judge or criticize others, you should first look to yourself??? Until the 90 to 95 % of Christians can say they have Christ fully in their hearts and their Christmas.....should they really be blaming anyone else?

Another angle: Now, if you are gonna blame "liberals" - again, given these numbers, most liberals must be Christian...if THEY are to blame - you can't use them in the 90 to 95 percent to justify as being a majority......you now need to eliminate those terrible liberals from these numbers....along with Christians who do not wholly in their hearts celebrate "the reason for the season" etc.....now drop the Christians who have NO problem with "Happy Holidays" or the consideration/recognition of others and their holidays ( a great number - thankfully!!!! - if the wonderful people here on these boards are any indication))...now you have NO where near 90 to 95 percent!!!...and you have lost your argument!!!!

I truly do not believe for one second that there is a "war on Xmas" or that the majority of Christians support, in any way...the position that Xmas is the only reason for the season - or that others should be left out simply because polls show the majority identify themselves as Christian or celebrating Christmas....

 

[beattyfamily]

was a minor holiday on the Jewish calendar, not involving gift giving, which is a tradition that started when baby boomer parents had to deal with their kids reacting to all the celebrations of their Christian classmates.

I found this part very interesting and informative. I didn't know this. I thought they always gave gifts and that its always been a big religious holiday. Learn something new everyday here on the DIS.

I just did a search and learned that they only started giving gifts in the 50's/60's and only in America.

From a Jewish website:

Gift-giving is not a traditional part of the holiday, but has been added in places where Jews have a lot of contact with Christians, as a way of dealing with our children's jealousy of their Christian friends. It is extremely unusual for Jews to give Chanukah gifts to anyone other than their own young children. The only traditional gift of the holiday is "gelt," small amounts of money.

Chanukah's religious significance is far less than that of Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Passover, and Shavu'ot. It is roughly equivalent to Purim in significance, and you won't find many non-Jews who have even heard of Purim! Chanukah is not mentioned in Jewish scripture; the story is related in the book of Maccabbees, which Jews do not accept as scripture.

 

[Laura]

Let's examine the critical mass of all these holidays:

- % of Americans who celebrate Chanukah (which until Jews started significantly assimilating -- circa the late 50s/early 60s -- was a minor holiday on the Jewish calendar, not involving gift giving, which is a tradition that started when baby boomer parents had to deal with their kids reacting to all the celebrations of their Christian classmates): about 2%

- % of Americans celebrating Kwanza (which is not a religious holiday like Christmas or Chanukah, it's a "cultural" celebration that didn't even exist until it was created in 1966 by Maulana Karenga, a convicted felon and Marxist political activist): at best about 4-5% (no, not all African Americans participate).

- % of Americans who celebrate Christmas (a core, major Christian holiday with roots going back to at least 1038): per Roper and Gallup, in the range of 90% (interestingly, both say more African Americans formally celebrate Christmas than Kwanza....)

Bottom line: the PC crowd here wants so called "acknowledgment" to imply equality. But it doesn't - the "other" holidays occuring around Christmas don't equate in either scale or importance, which is what makes the omission of the apparently horrific "C" word so annoying. Implying Kwanza or Chanukah are of the same social "weight" as Christmas is like saying Horace Horsecollar is of the same importance to the Disney character legacy as Mickey.

Did you know? There's more than one Christian holiday/feast day this time of year. St. Nicholas' feast day (12/6) and Epiphany (1/6) are celebrated by some Christians as well as Christmas. Plus there's New Year's, which would be celebrated by most Christians. Heck, some even extend the Christmas season until Candlemas (2/2). So saying "Happy Holidays" can include all these festivities. Even if you discount the others I mentioned, the two big holidays for most people in the USA at this time of year are Christmas and New Year's. So both are covered with the phrase. Big deal. It's a holiday season, Christian or not.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Absolutely completely apples & oranges here. Happy Holidays incorporates the non Christian holidays that take place in the same month (actually within the same latter part of the month) as Christmas. It has nothing to do with people feeling bad. It's acknowledging people other than Christians are celebrating a religious/spiritual/cultural holiday and they might be buying gifts for that purpose.

So when Easter falls in March we can say Happy Holidays to incorporate all the March festivities as well.

Why not say it all year round---December is not the only month with holidays in it.

(sarcasm intended--I could care less about this whole tomato/salad ingredient argument ).

 

[chobie]

So when Easter falls in March we can say Happy Holidays to incorporate all the March festivities as well.

Why not say it all year round---December is not the only month with holidays in it.

(sarcasm intended--I could care less about this whole tomato/salad ingredient argument ).

Hmm, you bring up a good point. To all you people who beleive there is a war on Christmas, then why do you think we pagan/heathen/atheist/liberals only attack Christmas? Why don't we also stop people from saying Happy Easter?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Hmm, you bring up a good point. To all you people who beleive there is a war on Christmas, then why do you think we pagan/heathen/atheist/liberals only attack Christmas? Why don't we also stop people from saying Happy Easter?

Too busy attacking Christmas?


(just kidding!)

 

[Disneyland1084]