From where do you get your optimism?

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK…

... So, I’m reading my favorite site and am mildly amused that we're back to discussing cars again… And how AK sucks - well, at least is half day - ah, that is to say, at least is NOT-A-ZOO - or something like that… And EPCOT ain’t so hot anymore… And the people at Miceage agreeing with the LandBaron stance on pricing without so much of a peep from Captian Index (Mr. Kidds)…

… And some thoughts come to mind… Especially about the cars… They are certainly not new thoughts. They are certainly not “revelations” of any kind.

NO!! Instead I am literally haunted and totally bewildered(!) how this type of thinking can possibly exist!!

BTW, I don’t mean to single out mickey1010. I just chose this post because it is short, relatively close to the beginning of the thread (not much hunting needed) and it is fairly indicative of the thought process that baffles me completely:

I've firmly planted my butt in car #2. I am an eternal optimist so I believe things will soon get better...If I was a shade more pessimistic, I'd probably be sittin' on the trunk of car #2 trying to decide if there was enough room for me to jump to car #3.

How can there be any optimism while Ei$ner is still in charge? To me that is the key. It’s like saying that the mob in Chicago was dead because 15 mobsters were arrested in the early winter months of 1928. And just how surprised everyone was come that following February… ah… around Valentine’s Day. Yep! You guessed it! Capone was still in charge!!! Nothing changed until he left! (and in truth for a very long time after his reign).

I’d really like to join you all in car two. But you’ve got to give me something to hang my hat on! Where do you see this optimism? PLEASE!! I WANT TO SEE IT TOO!!!

So! Tell me. From where do you get your optimism?

 

[Bob O]

I like you DVC have little optimism with eisner still in charge. He has shown his true colors over the lastfew years and is unlikely to change. The one thing that would make me optimistic would be for him to step down and hope his replacement "gets it"!!

 

[HB2K]

Nothing changed until he left! (and in truth for a very long time after his reign).

Unfortunatly this is the reason I'm in car 4. Eisner's way of thinking has rooted itself deep within the company.


Cutting down the tree is useless unless you dig up the roots.

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

Scoop: I understand your first itinerary for a few days, but if you're not going to visit the parks at all, I ask - what's the point?

Probably most of the dissatisfaction comes from the fact that you can't do this itinerary anymore:

8 - wake-up, quick breakfast at hotel
9 - to (park of choice)
2 - come back to hotel (late lunch, rest, pool time, 9 holes of golf, take your pick, etc...)
6-6:30 - dinner at restaraunt of choice (hotel or park)
8 - back to park to stroll leisurely in less heat and less crowds

Well, at least you can't typically do the last thing - not unless it's the middle of summer and you go back to the MK for 2 hours before you're booted out or forced to pay an extra $12 with a supposed limited number of people (never seems like it in the time we've done it.....) You're pretty much forced to your itnerary #2 if you want to see the parks and see most of the attractions at the parks.

The bottom line is you have more places to go (i.e. Boardwalk, DTD, hotels, etc.) but you have less of an option of when you choose to do those. Anyone who's visited in off-peak times knows how crazy DTD gets at 8:00 after ALL the parks are closed. It borders on ridiculous.

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

...but WDW markets itself around the parks - the celebrations that happen there, the characters, the movie tie-ins, the special events, etc. What you describe fits better with a DCL vacation augmented with a 2-day trip to WDW to ride some of your favorite rides in the parks and that's it. I understand your enjoyment of the many things WDW has to offer besides the parks, but one cannot deny that without the parks all you'd have is the Mall of America in Florida spread out over 43,000+ acres. When we go, we like to visit the parks every day, whether it be only for 2 hours to do something particular (ride, show, dinner at a restaurant) or to do one of those marathon, exhausting, see everything trips. My optimism has waned because in addition to all the other things we like to do at WDW, our option of when and how we like to see the parks has been greatly diminished. No longer can you choose when and how you do anything at WDW - you're herded with the masses to do things on Disney's limited scheduling of everything (including other things besides the 4 big parks).

We do enjoy the many options WDW has to offer besides the parks and make it a point to explore them on every vacation. It's not a Disney vacation if you don't do those things, but I would argue that Disney's limitations and cuts directly attributed to the parks have directly affected the other resort options in a negative manner.

To answer DVC's original question regarding optimism, I guess my only answer is that my optimism (incredibly limited as it is) stems from the fact that a) Eisner can't stick around until the end of our DVC agreement, b) some new rides will be making their way into the parks soon, and c) the parks (err... entire WDW resort) make way too much money for the next CEO to ignore (at least that's what I pray for) and that that person will see the errors and begin to right the ship.

 

[DC7800]

I'm still in car 3 (maybe 3.1). The only possible optimism I can forsee is that, with any luck, Eisner will be gone within a matter of months.

Of course, so much depends on his successor, and M.E. has taken us so far down it will require someone with a true understanding of Disney - and all that it represents - to even begin to restore a fraction of what has been lost. Indeed, it would require several years and several hundred million (bare minimum) just to begin to fix Epcot, let alone DCA, AK, and all the other divisions of the company. Is that money - and commitment - really going to be there to fix the magic even after Eisner's departure?

 

[mickey1010]

Baron -

I'm glad you asked that question and I would answer it if I knew!

Seriously though, I think it's more of a personality trait than anything else. I can definitely see people's reasoning for having no faith in the current regime and my optimism doesn't stem from the general direction things have been heading in the last few years. I believe things will "get better" soon and that may or may not be a product of Eisner and his cronies. I think that's the key here. If things don't improve soon, Eisner is out and then we can only hope that the next person has an $ in their name.
If things do improve under the current mgmt, well I guess he stays?

Furthermore, I don't think things are as bad as maybe some others believe. I may have slightly tinted rose colored glasses but again that's probably just me and my "look at the bright side of things" mentality. Personally, I still have a wonderful time vacationing at the parks and a big reason for that are the CMs that enhance the experience.

Some may call it blind, some may call it ignorant, I just call it optimism! I guess you could also say that the line between hope and optimism is slightly blurred too. I don't know, now I'm confusing myself.

Bottom line is given almost any situation, I will end up on the glass is half full side of the fence.

Hey, I work for WorldCom (well, at least for a few more weeks)
my optimism is the only way I've made it through the last couple years!!!

Well, the above garbled mess was my feeble attempt at answering your question which really didn't answer your question much at all...

 

[kamgen]

I have to agree with scoop! Our optimism comes from the enjoyment we feel when we are there.....
We too love to sleep in a bit more, but we usually don't....we use that time to take things at a more slow pace, or have a nice sit down breakfast at a normal pace.
We actually have gone to the parks and just walked around, not riding anything....just for the pure atmosphere!

We also view WDW as way more than just parks.....we could go for a week and be happy visiting the parks twice....

I think it is personal preference....as to what the "point" is?

Scoop: I understand your first itinerary for a few days, but if you're not going to visit the parks at all, I ask - what's the point?

The point is that to some of us optimists...WDW is a feeling more than a place. I love the parks....even if they were only open from 10-5 every day, I would still love them. But, I love the "world" as a whole.... For a nation so blessed to have the freedom to go to WDW and the ability to do so, we sure are getting particular about it. I try to remember that there are people in the world that will never experience the joy my family feels at WDW. That is sad. We are lucky. JMHO.

Kamy

 

[Another Voice]

"3:00pm Nap and relax"

Well I guess if the average American family was willing to drop the thousands and thousands of dollars needed to head to WDW just to read a book, things would be going well for The Walt Disney Company. Sadly, they don't. Nor do they seem willing to shell out $49.95 for what's selling in the kiddie Disney Store, nor willing to fork out $15.95 for the latest DVD with a "II" stapled after the title, nor even $7.75 for the lastest all-explosion flick in the multiplex. The state of a corporation is not measured by how much you enjoy your brand participation. It's measured by how much everyone is willing to spend money on the lastest ® creation.

So enjoy it while you can...

 

[Bstanley]

Herr Baron,

I've tried to stay away from this latest Car ridership discussion because I believe multiple dimensions need to be added to the car definitions.

There is such a focus here on the DIS with demonizing The Big ME that the fact that there are literally hundreds of thousands of other people at the company contributing to my Disney 'experience' gets lost.

Yes - I would TRULY like to see someone else in the driver's seat at Disney - I'm sure that the people that continue to make my visits to 'The World' special find it a tremendous burden carrying him and their other corporate overlords on their backs.

BUT - they manage to do it every time - each trip is still Magical.

So I guess my optimism is based on the simple observation that even now when those remaining Magical folks are operating under the severest of circumstances, with absurd requirements and restrictions being placed on them by people who have lost their clue they continue to come through for me and my family each time.

 

[HB2K]

...so, I might grant some that follow some version of the second itenarary that WDW hasn't added alot lately for that type of vacationing...

Isn't that type the one Disney advertises itself to? I don't recall seeing a WDW comercial which features the boardwalk, the hotels, or any restaurants for that matter.

Know why?

They're periferals. They're the dressing that's supposed to go on the salad.

It's nice that people enjoy looking at how nice the trash cans look, how nice a quiet fountain is to look at for hours, etc.

I personally don't pay $50 / day for a nice trash can, or a quiet brook. I can find those things in my local park (i.e. public, not theme).

...but, then again, maybe that's a good thing because maybe that'll give some of you all a reason to explore and enjoy the lesser known, but in our opinion equally great, magical parts of the World.

No scoop. It's not a good thing. People aren't going to keep going back to WDW and explore the lesser known parts of the world. They just aren't going to go back. Period.

That's what you don't understand about my view. While you enjoy that, and all the power to you, the majority of the public does not. They want a full day in the parks (i.e. Intenerary 1). Disney isn't providing it. If Disney does not provide what the customer wants, the customer will not just accept it and look at what's left, they'll look for someone else who can give them what they want.

 

[raidermatt]

Scoop, our individual preferences aside, the parks are the focal point of WDW for the vast majority of guests. If we can't agree on that, I'm not sure what else to say... (but I'll probably think of something)

So, if you are saying your optimism is based solely on your family's preferences, so be it.

However, for the majority, surely you can easily see why they would have a harder time finding such optimism?

And for those looking at the overall health of WDW, and consider the parks a critical factor in that health, surely you can see why they would lack optimism?

 

[kamgen]

I could just sit here and read what Scoop writes and nod my head!

I personally don't pay $50 / day for a nice trash can, or a quiet brook. I can find those things in my local park (i.e. public, not theme).

If besides rides, that is all you see at WDW, maybe you shouldn't go? JMHO.

What bothers me the most about the pessimistic approach to WDW is that all the pessimists KEEP going. If it is that bad, why do you subject yourselves to it?

The state of a corporation is not measured by how much you enjoy your brand participation. It's measured by how much everyone is willing to spend money on the lastest ® creation. So enjoy it while you can...

We plan to enjoy it for a long time. And not EVERYONE has to be a part of it. I know many people that have never been to WDW and never want to go (fools I say ), so that proves that not EVERYONE has to be willing to spend their money there. JMHO.

I will keep going and keep being happy!

Kamy

 

[DisneyKidds]

Time for me to chime in, and I'll keep it simple. From where do I get my optimism? Well, from the knowledge of two things:

1. They are only theme parks.
2. I have yet to go to WDW and not have a Magical time, each trip just as Magical as the last.

Could things be better? Yeah. Will some things get worse? Perhaps. Will they still be (just) theme parks where I will have an great time? Absolutely, without a doubt. Does that make me blind, stupid, an apologist, whatever the higher number cars might want to label it? Nah, I know exactly what is going on, and:

1. They are still only theme parks.
2. I still have a Magical time, each trip just as Magical as the last.

Maybe the fact that we see WDW along the Scoop lines has something to do with the fact that we roll easily with the theme park punches. We rarely spend more than about 6 hours a day in a park, and we love to take advantage of the resorts and all the other things WDW has to offer. If I was an open to close theme park commando hell bent on rides I'd probably feel differently. However, even with the warts, WDW provides our family with an unequaled vacation experience in an environment like no other. All the trips to the beach, all the ski vacations, all the other things we do - nothing else draws as much of our time.

 

[HB2K]

If besides rides, that is all you see at WDW, maybe you shouldn't go? JMHO.

What bothers me the most about the pessimistic approach to WDW is that all the pessimists KEEP going. If it is that bad, why do you subject yourselves to it?

Kami, to be honest...I'm not. This last trip was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Keep in mind I've been going to WDW at least once per year for the past 6-7 years. I chose WDW for my honeymoon. If you asked me a year ago if I would EVER take a vacation ANYWHERE other than WDW...I'd tell you NO. Even though I saw the cutbacks, attraction losses, etc I was able to see through it and enjoy what was left.

That came to a screeching halt in December 2003.

The cutbacks are starting to become more and more glaring. The CM's are less and less magical, and more and more run of the mill (there are still some wonderfull CM's. It's just they used to outnumber the bad ones). Maintenance has become a joke. Prices are skyrocketing.

So I'm done with it...at least for a while.

But here's a question to ask yourself. Am I the minority or the majority?

I'm guessing the attendance woes tell that story.

We plan to enjoy it for a long time. And not EVERYONE has to be a part of it. I know many people that have never been to WDW and never want to go (fools I say ), so that proves that not EVERYONE has to be willing to spend their money there. JMHO.

The more and more Disney ignores their customer base, those customers will take your advice and not go. Contrary to the belief on this board that these disgruntled guests will still come to WDW and accept the changes, they will not. They will explore other vacation alternatives...and that should scare you since the WDW you love will continue to wither away....

until one day the straw hits your back.

 

[Another Voice]

"why in the world would the Burbank execs think they have to change one bit at all when the Raidermatts and Barons and others of the world publicly criticize Disney---yet keep on going back over and over and over."

Case One: The person doesn't go. This let's Disney come up with their own reason why attendance is off. As we've seen with Animal Kingdom, California Adventure and Epcot, they aren't looking too hard to find the right reasons these days.

Case Two: The happy fan goes anyway. The drive for any company is to do less to get more money. If Disney can get your ticket money while cutting back hours and perks - and they think you like it - that encourages down this trend even more.

Case Three: Go and state your mind. Giving money to Disney is the only way to get thier attention. Once you've done that it's very easy to tell them about all the other money they aren't getting because Disney isn't doing the things to earn it.

"Yes, I'm staying four days - but not five becasue Animal Kingdom isn't worth a full day's visit". "Yes, I'm at Disney World but I'm staying off property because without Early Entry I can't justify the extra cost of Disney hotels". "Yes I enjoyed Epcot but I'm not staying for dinner because the attractions are worn and stale."

Corporations are like dumb children. You have to get their attention and then speak in simple declaractive sentences.

 

[raidermatt]

As I mentioned to someone in a PM discussion recently, why in the world would the Burbank execs think they have to change one bit at all when the Raidermatts and Barons and others of the world publicly criticize Disney---yet keep on going back over and over and over.

Boy, I hope whoever you PM'd with was able to answer your question, because it really is an easy question to answer.

Why change when Raidermatt, Baron, and others who criticise the current direction still go? Two reasons:

1- Who says we will always go? We do now, but who knows about the future? Most marriages that end in divorce deteriorate over time, not all at once.

2- For every person who goes to WDW and cares as much about the place as we do, there are many others who go, but aren't nearly as devoted. Yeah, it was there choice this year, but they aren't going to buy DVC, and they'll wait awhile before going back. In other words, they are closer to their "breaking point" than we are from the beginning. Diminish the experience and us "hardcores" will speak up and tell you about it. The less devoted, who are in greater numbers, probably don't care enough to speak up. They'll just quietly make other plans.

Any Disney exec who dismisses complaints from people just because they don't think the complaint is enough to drive that particular customer away needs to get his/her head examined.

As for WDW in general, well, Baron's question is inherently about personal preferences. After all, he did ask why somebody would have optimism.

Fair enough. I'm just pointing out that if the parks were to fall on harder times, it would have a great impact on the peripheral establishements/activities you frequent.

 

[kamgen]

HB2K- I appreciate your insights and opinions.

I too honeymooned there in 2000 and have gone back many times since and joined DVC. Our most recent visit was a few weeks ago. And unlike you, I do not notice all the cutbacks....except for the obvious cutback of hours, I do not see CM's who are less magical and I don't see bad maintenance. I do however realize that nothing is perfect. Every theme park or amusement park in America shows wear after awhile....WDW is no different. What does make it different is that there is a magical feeling in the air, a sense of joy just to be part of the magic if only for 5 minutes. I feel it....my dh feels it.......I feel sorry for those who don't.

I guess I don't think WDW will wither away.....it is inside all of us eternal optimists.....


Kamy

 

[raidermatt]

Scoop, you know its not as black and white as we had a cruddy time so we won't go back. We don't have a cruddy time. We have a great time. That doesn't mean things can't be getting worse.

We will continue going to WDW as long as its our choice over other destinations. Look at it like an auto race. WDW has a 10 car length lead over our other choices. Then the lead falls to 8 car lengths. Do we still go? Of course, its still our favorite by far. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't point out that the lead is narrowing, and if the current situation continues long enough, the lead will disappear.

For somebody for who WDW only had a 1 car length lead, it will take much less time for them to choose somewhere else.

Of course money speaks louder than words, which is why AV pointed out how one can put the complaints into terms that Disney Execs understand. "Yes you got $3000 of my money, but you didn't get $3,500 beacause of x, y, and z"

Meanwhile those who didn't have WDW so far out in front, or had worse experiences, stop going altogether.

Both are indications of the same problems.

 

[HB2K]

p.s. which begs the question, my friend, HB2k, my man, what are you doing here, then?

I bounce back in and out of these boards quite a bit. I enjoy the topic, and lord knows how much of a Disney a Holic I was....

I'll probably start pittering away shortly...