FROG PRINCESS Under Protest Already

[NeverEnufWDW]

From Contactmusic.com ... which quotes Jim Hill...

There are truly a LOT of people out there who need to GET A LIFE !

 

[Nom]

That's an interesting statement. I watch shows like Grey's Anatomy (a Disney Company show), where some of the most powerful characters are black and Hispanic. Those characters are about as far from "gangsta pimpin'" as possible.

I agree with djm, that kids are not watching shows like Grey's. It's the young black boys that are in trouble. Anyway, by the time people are old enough to watch shows like greys, hopefully they have enough sense of self that even if they did not have strong role models, they would be ok. It's really kids that are preteen and younger that are very influenced by what they see in the media.

Maybe it's not media's fault entirely (if we beleived everything we saw on TV or in the theater, then we'd believe that all Asians knew karate, that all Italians were mobsters, that all blondes were dumb, etc - you get the picture!), but instead the choices people make for themselves.

Yes, you are definately right that there are a lot of stereotypes in the media! I think that the particular problem for black males is threefold: first, that there are almost no postive role models for black boys in the media that is targetted to them (while you will probably agree that there are positive protrayals of white children all the time), second, that the role models that are out there that black boys see is largely negative (they probably watch music videos much more than shows like greys anatomy), and third, that there are other cultural issues at play with young black men that are not seen as much with other minorities (lack of father figures, etc). So it is definately not all the media's fault... and I am not saying that disney must put a strong black man in the movide... I am just saying it would have been nice.

Here is the article I read sunday... it does a great job of encapsulating what I am trying to say.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/05/the_achievement_gap_separating.html

It does not say all the blame is on the media... but some of the blame is there. So if disney had taken a giant step and made a strong black prince- that would have sent a powerful message to a demographic that really needs one!

 

[MasterShake]

Agreed - don't forget that WE don't all look alike - and WE should all be represented.

Who said anything about African Americans all looking alike?

third, that there are other cultural issues at play with young black men that are not seen as much with other minorities (lack of father figures, etc).

I'll assume that this is a fact and not a stereotype you are throwing out (I think I did here this was a problem on CNN, but I can't remember for sure). If this is the case, maybe we should be focusing on this problem rather then looking for an entertainment company to provide proper role models.

 

[Nom]

I'll assume that this is a fact and not a stereotype you are throwing out (I think I did here this was a problem on CNN, but I can't remember for sure). If this is the case, maybe we should be focusing on this problem rather then looking for an entertainment company to provide proper role models.

Did you read the link? It talks about the combination of factors and how they interplay. Take a look at the link- it's brief but informative and shows that it is a fact, not a stereotype. Yes, it's not all on the media, but every little bit helps.

 

[Charade]

I guess what bothers me (and I might get flamed for it) is that do black boys and girls really think to themselves "I wished the star of this movie looked like me"? Is it the character or the actor (IRL) they're trying to relate to? I believe it's up to the parents to expose their kids to the things they feel will help guide them through life. I don't think they should rely on a fictional animated movie to be a significant factor. If at all. There are many real life role models for kids to look up to. They come in all colors, sizes and backgrounds. It's up to the parents to seek these people out.

 

[djm99]

Who said anything about African Americans all looking alike?

No one said anything about anybody all looking alike. You asked "Why can't we just have people with strong "look up to" characteristics?" - my response is that WE as a human family should do just that, without the focus on skin color. Since WE all look different, we should show that diversity in film and TV. You eliminate the focus on skin by representing everyone. That everyone is white, brown, red, and black people. This is easily done. Many new toy companies (like Bratz and Barbie) are in a marketing boom of doing just this. They are doing a great job of cultural diversity. That's how you eliminate that focus - show diversity. That's all I was saying - or trying to say.

I guess what bothers me (and I might get flamed for it) is that do black boys and girls really think to themselves "I wished the star of this movie looked like me"? Is it the character or the actor (IRL) they're trying to relate to? I believe it's up to the parents to expose their kids to the things they feel will help guide them through life. I don't think they should rely on a fictional animated movie to be a significant factor. If at all. There are many real life role models for kids to look up to. They come in all colors, sizes and backgrounds. It's up to the parents to seek these people out.

No flames from me, just hopefully clarity. First things first, children, especially ages 4-12 (be them black, white, red, or yellow) very rarely think for themselves. We as parents shape their thoughts in many (or most) respects. Our environments, schools, home, what's seen on TV, what's told to us by peers, all embody their thoughts. Many parents can afford to expand their 'horizon' by exposing them to other things outside of their current realities. Those parents put their kids in sports, dance classes, and other extracurricular activities. It is unfortunately when some have kids and they themselves haven't been exposed to other positive realities so that same destructive, negative (and sometimes non-productive) mindset is 'inherent' from one generation to the next.

Their are many inner city youth (both black and white) whose only 'role models' are drug dealers, pimps, and men of questionable activities. Some mothers want to do better, but often times don't know where to start. I've called it being ‘socially retarded’. Some feel an 'inability' of 'knowing' how to stop thinking peripherally. They can only see what's immediately in their faces. Looking to the left or right never crossed their minds. It's like bringing home a new gold fish and placing it in a fish tank. That new fish will get its in aquarium and explore its environment then move toward the glass, bump its nose, move to other side bump its nose again , move again bump its nose again, then finally come to the conclusion its not going anywhere and never hit that glass again.

Like that fish these boys have to fight so many negative influences (even in-house family) to make it out of those fish bowls. I am so blessed to have the husband that I do, that volunteers his time to mentor black boys. He is a teacher at a gifted middle school and really works with these boys on and off the clock. He coaches football and tutors math. So back to your original question, IMO all kids are influenced and in many respects their thoughts are directly related from the environment from which they come. If positive role models are lacking in that environment and hardly any positive ones are even represented in the ‘make believe’ places of both movie and TV – major problems are accruing and will continue to accrue until changes are made.

Disclaimer: I am ONE black person. I do NOT represent thought for every one of color.

 

[djm99]

double post sorry -

 

[crazy4wdw]

Just a note regarding being courteous to other posters and not making statements that could be interpreted as a personal attack. I have a feeling that this thread may get out of hand! Thanks for your cooperation!

 

[Nom]

No flames from me, just hopefully clarity. First things first, children, especially ages 4-12 (be them black, white, red, or yellow) very rarely think for themselves. We as parents shape their thoughts in many (or most) respects. Our environments, schools, home, what's seen on TV, what's told to us by peers, all embody their thoughts. Many parents can afford to expand their 'horizon' by exposing them to other things outside of their current realities. Those parents put their kids in sports, dance classes, and other extracurricular activities. It is unfortunately when some have kids and they themselves haven't been exposed to other positive realities so that same destructive, negative (and sometimes non-productive) mindset is 'inherent' from one generation to the next.

Their are many inner city youth (both black and white) whose only 'role models' are drug dealers, pimps, and men of questionable activities. Some mothers want to do better, but often times don't know where to start. I've called it being ‘socially retarded’. Some feel an 'inability' of 'knowing' how to stop thinking peripherally. They can only see what's immediately in their faces. Looking to the left or right never crossed their minds. It's like bringing home a new gold fish and placing it in a fish tank. That new fish will get its in aquarium and explore its environment then move toward the glass, bump its nose, move to other side bump its nose again , move again bump its nose again, then finally come to the conclusion its not going anywhere and never hit that glass again.

Like that fish these boys have to fight so many negative influences (even in-house family) to make it out of those fish bowls. I am so blessed to have the husband that I do, that volunteers his time to mentor black boys. He is a teacher at a gifted middle school and really works with these boys on and off the clock. He coaches football and tutors math. So back to your original question, IMO all kids are influenced and in many respects their thoughts are directly related from the environment from which they come. If positive role models are lacking in that environment and hardly any positive ones are even represented in the ‘make believe’ places of both movie and TV – major problems are accruing and will continue to accrue until changes are made.

ITA- you said what I was trying to say very clearly and consisely... thank you!

I should add that I am a white woman... but my eyes were opened to a lot of things when I was at college. I went to a pretty liberal college and took some great courses that helped me understand about many of the racial problems in this country, where they stem from, etc. I learned a lot from the friends 'of color' that I met in those classes, and I feel that my perspectives on life were changed through many of the courses I took and the people I got the opportunity to interact with, and the friends that I still have to this day.

However, although I learned a lot, I am not a black woman, so I can never speak from that place... so I apologize if I spoke out of turn at all! I just feel strongly about some of the inequities that are still in our society, and it would have been great like I said, to see a strong black male prince in this tale.

I do feel that if our kids learned about different perspecitves in high school, some of the stuff that I learned about in college, people would be a lot more understanding about why it is so important to see diversity in the media aimed towards young people. I think that unless you have somewhat of an in-depth understanding of history and some of the causes of poverty and racism in our country, it is easy to fall into the trap of saying "everyone should see beyond color" and truely believe in that utopian vision. It would be a wonderful place if everyone did see beyond color, and that was all it took... and I hope we get there some day. In the meantime though, as we work towards that goal, why not do what we can to stop the cycle of disenfranchising of many young black men?

I am enjoying having the discussion with all, and always like to see different points of view. I like that we can all learn from one another here.

 

[freakylick]

I just wish that they had set the first black princess story in africa. Maybe reinact an old african folk tale.... with all the cast being african. That would probably have more support from african american groups, plus it would expose all our kids to an area of culture that we don't get enough of in school.

I don't know why they did not go that route--- seems safer than the story they decided to go with, and they could have done some amazing stuff with the african culture.

Since it's Disney, there would be outcry that they didn't set the movie in America because apparently blacks can only become princesses/princes amongst their own kind in Africa. And I am sure there would be outrage about how Disney is saying that if blacks want to be "successful", they should go back to Africa because America belongs to caucasians.

I'm sorry, but I just see this a very difficult situation for Disney because every detail of this movie will be criticized and in the end, this quote will likely come to fruition:

Disney has been criticized for not having an African American princess and now they will be criticized for making one. In the end they will probably have to play it so safe, that the movie will be ruined. Every creative aspect will be dissected and in the end we'll get a movie with a watered down plot that will get Disney the fewest pieces of hate mail.

 

[djm99]

ITA- you said what I was trying to say very clearly and consisely... thank you!

I should add that I am a white woman... but my eyes were opened to a lot of things when I was at college. I am enjoying having the discussion with all, and always like to see different points of view. I like that we can all learn from one another here.

Wow - I'm speechless. I pegged you wrong. I'm humbled too.

Since it's Disney, there would be outcry that they didn't set the movie in America because apparently blacks can only become princesses/princes amongst their own kind in Africa. And I am sure there would be outrage about how Disney is saying that if blacks want to be "successful", they should go back to Africa because America belongs to caucasians.

I'm sorry, but I just see this a very difficult situation for Disney because every detail of this movie will be criticized and in the end, this quote will likely come to fruition:

There are always going to be people who will criticize any movie (especially when a movie is depicting minorities - except when its minorities that are making the films -umm - double standard and I digress). I remember the controversy around Aladdin (One of the verses of the opening song "Arabian Nights" was altered following protests from the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC). The lyrics were changed in July 1993 from "'Where they cut off your ear if they don't like your face/It's barbaric, but, hey, it's home," in the original release to "Where it's flat and immense and the heat is intense/It's barbaric, but, hey, it's home." ) And Pocahontas (it was considered so historically inaccurate it was just ridiculous. First it was the look of Pocahontas (which said she looked like an AA model Naomi Campbell), how old she really was (pre-teen), how Native Americans were depicted, how handsome John Smith looked, and on and on). It’s just unrealistic to think that everyone will be satisfied. But as movie makers being sensitive to cultural differences and showing a balance is important.

I cannot emphasize enough my appreciation for Disney's attempt at this. It shows a lot of growth on Disney’s part. Although I've always thought that the execs where fond of Africa, and I'm shocked too that Disney didn't go there. Even if there is an arterial motive as the article suggest. I hope this project is done well, and its well attended by all.

 

[yitbos96bb]

And when did anyone ever confuse 'Maddy' with 'Mammy'?

What a load of dung.......

barrel

My Dog's name is Maddy... I've never mixed up the two. I'll bet some minor political figure *****ed and Iger rolled over. He has no guts when dealing with this kind of stuff. See his previous idiotic statements on SOTS... mind you they had no issues with Dumbo, which has quite a few racially insensitive moments and characters.

 

[yitbos96bb]

Yea, Thanks Bubba Clinton for starting all of this "politically correct" garbage.....

Boy what an ignorant comment.

 

[yitbos96bb]

Actually, I am pleased that Disney Execs are thinking ahead and being culturally sensitive. I see absolutely NOTHING wrong about thinking about how stereotypes can impact generations to come. Disney movies can be really powerful. Especially in the young minds that love them most. When I first heard this movie was taking place in New Orleans I was ecstatic!!! Finally a non-stereotypical black princess. Then I read what it was about. Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah!!! Because I love the 'rich' history that New Orleans holds, I just knew this Princess would be grand from first scene. In my opinion, no other city could pull this off during this era but New Orleans. New Orleans had MANY affluent Creole women (of African Decent) that by the 1940's would not have a clue what a slave life could have been like. But you want to talk about stereotypes. Disney will offer a black princess but you can bet that having a black prince isn't even fathomable in those Execs mind. The Prince would have to be white. Same ole story. They did this with Cinderella (a non-black Prince was used). In all fairness the Prince wasn’t white either, he was from the Philippines – I think. I guess I got the last Black Prince. I digress.

I am at least proud that Disney execs are during their research and thinking ahead. My hats are off for the Disney Execs.

You also seem to forget that in 1940's New Orleans, that Jim Crow laws were rampant, and the number of poor african-americans were MUCH MUCH higher than the number of rich afluent ones. And because of the Jim Crow laws, these rich affluent ones were still second class citizens with their own section of town, etc. And one of the more prominent jobs for poor people in the South during that time period was working for the rich in a butler, cook, maid capacity. From what I could tell, Disney was actually being more historically accurate than anything. The name change doesn't bother me as much (I do think they overreacted which is par for the course for Disney instead of taking the creative chance and defending their work) but the circumstances are a bit annoying and the title change especially.

 

[yitbos96bb]

I think that djm is making some good points. I was dissapointed to read in that link that the prince, who seems to be the love interest of maddy (I assume) is not black. I wish disney would have taken the full plunge and made both leading characters black.

Other than that, I agree that the films seems to be a good thing.

In 1940's New Orleans, a mixed raced relationship would be quite the social taboo. Depending on how they handle it, it could be quite a big statement.

 

[yitbos96bb]

Not true. Eddie Murphy starred in "The Haunted Mansion". Michael Jackson in "Captain EO". Cuba Gooding Jr. in "Snow Dogs".

That's also not to mention movies from other Disney business Units, Miramax, Buena Vista, etc. After all, Pulp Fiction was a Disney movie and two of the 4 biggest parts were black males.

 

[freakylick]

There are always going to be people who will criticize any movie (especially when a movie is depicting minorities - except when its minorities that are making the films -umm - double standard and I digress).
...
It’s just unrealistic to think that everyone will be satisfied. But as movie makers being sensitive to cultural differences and showing a balance is important.

I cannot emphasize enough my appreciation for Disney's attempt at this. It shows a lot of growth on Disney’s part. Although I've always thought that the execs where fond of Africa, and I'm shocked too that Disney didn't go there. Even if there is an arterial motive as the article suggest. I hope this project is done well, and its well attended by all.

I agree with the bolded statement. I don't expect them to make everyone happy. However, that's not really what I was getting at. My point was simply that many in the black community (please note that when I say "black community", I speak in generalities and do not address that to anyone specifically) have been clamoring for a black princess and then they jump at the opportunity to criticize every last detail (heck, I heard one black "journalist" criticize them for using Randy Newman to do the score since he is the "whitest white man"). No matter what Disney would have done, the black community would have found problems with this film. IE-Disney is really in a no-win situation here.

For example, they do a movie showing a black woman working for a white family...and they are criticized for being insensitive to the issue of slavery. Let's say that this movie instead showed a black woman working for a black family....What do you think the reaction would have been to that...Surely they would be scolded for falsely depicting the enslavement of blacks and shifting blame from the white man.

Don't get me wrong, I am not shedding a tear for Disney here. They brought much of this on themselves. From both a strategic and humanitarian standpoint, they should never have waited this long to do a movie with a black princess and/or prince.

 

[EUROPACL]

For example, they do a movie showing a black woman working for a white family...and they are criticized for being insensitive to the issue of slavery. Let's say that this movie instead showed a black woman working for a black family....What do you think the reaction would have been to that...Surely they would be scolded for falsely depicting the enslavement of blacks and shifting blame from the white man.

A often glossed over fact is that many "freed blacks" in America owned slaves themselves.

According to federal census reports, on June 1, 1860 there were nearly 4.5 million Negroes in the United States, with fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves. Of this number, 10,689 lived in New Orleans. The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city

To return to the census figures quoted above, this 28 percent is certainly impressive when compared to less than 1.4 percent of all American whites and less than 4.8 percent of southern whites. The statistics show that, when free, blacks disproportionately became slave masters.

 

[mitros]

Boy what an ignorant comment.

Thanks! I like you too!

 

[djm99]

You also seem to forget that in 1940's New Orleans, that Jim Crow laws were rampant, and the number of poor african-americans were MUCH MUCH higher than the number of rich afluent ones. And because of the Jim Crow laws, these rich affluent ones were still second class citizens with their own section of town, etc. And one of the more prominent jobs for poor people in the South during that time period was working for the rich in a butler, cook, maid capacity. From what I could tell, Disney was actually being more historically accurate than anything. The name change doesn't bother me as much (I do think they overreacted which is par for the course for Disney instead of taking the creative chance and defending their work) but the circumstances are a bit annoying and the title change especially.

I'm a little unsure what your point is in this brief AA history. I am VERY aware of the Jim Crow Laws and the 'feel' of this time. Again, we are talking about a fairy tale. Disney 'chopped up' Pocahontas to make it a love story. They ignored all the historical facts of that time and made a wonderful story. Although Pocahontas had its own controversy, a story was made. Do we really want to watch a Disney cartoon about the 'sport' of lynching, blatant racism, and Jim Crow Laws of that time - OR - do we want to watch a 'feel good' movie that makes us smile. Yes Disney will likely show the era as it was, but there were many black people (particularly in New Orleans) that were affluent. Regardless of how they were regarded by whites. As I stated earlier, Anne Rice did a wonderful Novel about this VERY subject. The story followed FREE people in the 1840’s and patterns of irony and injustice together through complex family relationships and social structures. If this was a documentary - yes- being historically correct is imperative, but a cartoon - for kids can stand some creativity.