FP+... who hates it

[mom2rtk]

I don't know where the idea that Disney instituted this stuff to force someone to spend more time planning. It is only logical that if they didn't need to put this stuff in place they wouldn't. It cost them a lot of money to operate this system and they wouldn't do it if they didn't have too. The thing that people don't seem to understand is that just MK alone has a daily population of some of the larger cities in many states. There was a time, in a land far away, that we could just go and do our thing, eat when we felt like it and ride whatever rides we had the patience to wait for. WDW is way to big for that now, too many people all trying to do the same thing at the same time.

Too many people are trying to do the same thing because there aren't enough new things to keep up with the growing crowds. That's not an inevitable outgrowth of attendance increases. It's a result of choices Disney made to hold back in investing in new attractions.

If addition of net new attractions had kept up with attendance increases, those people would be spread out among new things. That approach worked beautifully at DLR. I'm not sure why they chose such a different approach for WDW.

 

[MainMom]

There's nothing new to see here. Only a complete wipe and rebuild of 1/4 of the MK, AK, HS, and oh yeah DCA and DTD too. Always amazes me when ppl say there are no new attractions going in -- in a time when major renovations are happening left and right. As if MM+ was put in place, in lieu of attractions. When really, it was put in place alongside some of the most significant changes in WDW history. Even Epcot... the park w/o a major overhaul in this 5-yr period... is getting its 3 primary rides redone.

I happen to love the new attractions going in at all the parks.

I agree with you. I think the problem is that it's not fast enough for those that go on a regular basis. I feel that disney has a reason for implementing the technology first. I also feel that they have a lot of plans that haven't been announced yet. We are finding out something new every month.

 

[chitownpeeps]

I spent most of last night reading this thread and honestly getting more and more depressed. We are going in the dreaded Spring break week next week. Was not going to do it, and now am very sorry I am. With teens you just can not take them out of school at other times of the year.

We went to Disneyland in Aug. Also a very busy time. Old Fast Pass system. Are we abusers? Was there at rope drop stayed till the parks closed at 1 each night.
Our mission ride or do every attraction at Disneyland 53 things I think? Four days and yes we did it all! Many much more than once. Did we get our monies worth? Yes we did. Did we "Abuse" the system? No we worked the system. No sleeping in late. We knew what we wanted and knew which rides to sprint to in the am to get the fast passes quickly.

I am confused on why some folks LOVE the new system so much. If I understand correctly you get 3 rides/attractions with a set time. Then you have to stand in a long line to hopefully get a 4th FP. Maybe up to 30 minutes then you have to stand in another FP line to actually get on the ride. How is this quicker than getting a fast pass and coming back later in the old system? or just seeing a stand by line of under 30 minutes and waiting?

I have already told my peeps this is our Swan song to DisneyWorld. We won't be back any time soon. If and when we go back it will be to DisneyLand. We love the Mothership better anyways. Much better MK and Carsland is wonderful. Hopefully because Disneyland is much more a local's park it will be a little while longer before they ruin it with Fast pass plus. I am sure it will come there soon too since Disney made such an investment.

I would be happy to report back after our trip, and hope I am surprised and come back if not a fan at least not hating it so much!

 

[mom2rtk]

According to Jim Hill, NFL increased MK capacity by 5,000. Additionally the Richard Petty track will be converted into additional MK parking. So more people can be shoved into MK. They'll just be fighting for the same ride capacity.

I'm curious, is that greater guest count capacity? Or attraction capacity? I'm thinking they might have increased park capacity simply by extending the footprint of the park further back with NFL. I remember a year ago how they touted being able to get 3K more guests per day through the gates of the MK over the Christmas season. That's not the same as having more things for them to do though.

In fairness, the new mine ride is cute even if awfully short. Be Our Guest is also a nice addition. Beyond that I got nothing.

It was still pretty easy to find things to do in MK though. The other three parks are where the problems are.

I like NFL. I think it's charming and well themed. But in terms of net new attractions? Not much. I don't include BOG since it's not included in the price of admission. ETWB replaced Belle's Storytime. 7DMT is new but it came at the loss of SWSA. Dumbo added some capacity. Beyond that? Ariel. That's it.

 

[Shaden]

I spent most of last night reading this thread and honestly getting more and more depressed. We are going in the dreaded Spring break week next week. Was not going to do it, and now am very sorry I am. With teens you just can not take them out of school at other times of the year.

We went to Disneyland in Aug. Also a very busy time. Old Fast Pass system. Are we abusers? Was there at rope drop stayed till the parks closed at 1 each night.
Our mission ride or do every attraction at Disneyland 53 things I think? Four days and yes we did it all! Many much more than once. Did we get our monies worth? Yes we did. Did we "Abuse" the system? No we worked the system. No sleeping in late. We knew what we wanted and knew which rides to sprint to in the am to get the fast passes quickly.

I am confused on why some folks LOVE the new system so much. If I understand correctly you get 3 rides/attractions with a set time. Then you have to stand in a long line to hopefully get a 4th FP. Maybe up to 30 minutes then you have to stand in another FP line to actually get on the ride. How is this quicker than getting a fast pass and coming back later in the old system? or just seeing a stand by line of under 30 minutes and waiting?

I have already told my peeps this is our Swan song to DisneyWorld. We won't be back any time soon. If and when we go back it will be to DisneyLand. We love the Mothership better anyways. Much better MK and Carsland is wonderful. Hopefully because Disneyland is much more a local's park it will be a little while longer before they ruin it with Fast pass plus. I am sure it will come there soon too since Disney made such an investment.

I would be happy to report back after our trip, and hope I am surprised and come back if not a fan at least not hating it so much!

See I kind of see the advantage of FP+ during busier times, if you weren't going to RD under legacy FP. If you are a rope dropper (and you are) I think legacy FP still worked out better for you, but I can see the advantage to having 3 FPs booked later in the day during busier times.

So that's my first recommendation, Book your FPs for the busiest time of the day that you will be in the park, or at least after the RD benefits start to fade. Yes its only 3, and yes in some parks they are tiered so you can only book one headliner and 2 other attractions.

As for the Kiosk lines, they aren't -ALWAYS- huge, it depends on the time of year and the crowd levels. I fear that in your case they may indeed be quite long, but that might mean 10 mins ... or yes it could mean 30 mins. Our experience was usually 10 - 15 but we did run into a few very long lines.

I hope you have a great trip even if you hate FP+ ... we certainly don't like it but still had a great trip and are looking at heading back in November this year.

 

[cindyfan]

I know I'm going to kick myself for biting on this but define abuse.

My thought exactly! You really couldn't "abuse" it. There were some great ways to strategize and utilize it to get the most out of it. You will see..... there are ways to strategize the new system too. There is NO abuse!

 

[Ambear]

I feel like a big problem for the parks these days is just the sheer amount of people visiting all at once. Maybe it was because I was a child but it certainly didn't feel like there were as many people in the 90's and early 2000's (lol I sound like an old fart. Like, "back in my day!")

So either way I think the wait times would be cray with the old fp or this new one. It's just the fact that you have to stand around longer now, with or without planning your day.

Also, California adventure SUCKED when it first opened. Now I hear Disneyland and CA are the best parks evar! So I haven't lost hope that wdw can make wdw amazing too lol. (though I still love it anyway.)

 

[Cormoran]

When I read this I thought it was MK's Capacity overall had increased that much per day, but that included FP+ and was due to the cycling of guests in and out of the park faster. Though maybe these are two separate statements.

I mean, has the footprint of MK actually changed ? And there were some attractions in the space of FL2 that are now gone no ?

When they ripped out Toontown and created NFL, they increased the park capacity. It wasn't about increasing the ride capacity. Usually they close the MK to capacity over the Christmas Holidays, but this year they didn't have to because of this. There's not that much more for guests to do, but they can shoe horn in more guests. I also think that's the reason for the Hub construction. When you think about it, this can allow Disney to increase their MK gate revenue, at busy times, by a minimum of $500,000/day!

 

[RabFlmom]

With the money they spent to change everything they will not be getting rid of it, so we either have to adjust, choose to wait in lines, or just not go. I vote adjust and make the best of it. Comparing it to Universal's is not an option because of the difference in number of resort hotels and the volume of people who go to the 6 Disney parks in Orlando.

 

[Shaden]

I feel like a big problem for the parks these days is just the sheer amount of people visiting all at once. Maybe it was because I was a child but it certainly didn't feel like there were as many people in the 90's and early 2000's (lol I sound like an old fart. Like, "back in my day!")

So either way I think the wait times would be cray with the old fp or this new one. It's just the fact that you have to stand around longer now, with or without planning your day.

Also, California adventure SUCKED when it first opened. Now I hear Disneyland and CA are the best parks evar! So I haven't lost hope that wdw can make wdw amazing too lol. (though I still love it anyway.)

This would be true, except that we could see a pretty significant difference in wait times between the last year of Legacy FP, and the first year of FP+, and crowd increases weren't that significant and don't really explain the increases in wait times.

Of course growing crowds are a factor long term.

But there is very little question that FP+ and the expansion of FPs to other attractions, naturally increases the wait times.

 

[Planogirl]

I can't imagine them shoehorning even more people into MK. While MK is far better then the other parks there just isn't enough to do if you increase the number of people significantly. I see mobs of people just milling around like on a mid-afternoon at Christmas. I hope that I'm wrong.

 

[MrInfinity]

I spent most of last night reading this thread and honestly getting more and more depressed. We are going in the dreaded Spring break week next week. Was not going to do it, and now am very sorry I am. With teens you just can not take them out of school at other times of the year.

We went to Disneyland in Aug. Also a very busy time. Old Fast Pass system. Are we abusers? Was there at rope drop stayed till the parks closed at 1 each night.
Our mission ride or do every attraction at Disneyland 53 things I think? Four days and yes we did it all! Many much more than once. Did we get our monies worth? Yes we did. Did we "Abuse" the system? No we worked the system. No sleeping in late. We knew what we wanted and knew which rides to sprint to in the am to get the fast passes quickly.

I am confused on why some folks LOVE the new system so much. If I understand correctly you get 3 rides/attractions with a set time. Then you have to stand in a long line to hopefully get a 4th FP. Maybe up to 30 minutes then you have to stand in another FP line to actually get on the ride. How is this quicker than getting a fast pass and coming back later in the old system? or just seeing a stand by line of under 30 minutes and waiting?

I have already told my peeps this is our Swan song to DisneyWorld. We won't be back any time soon. If and when we go back it will be to DisneyLand. We love the Mothership better anyways. Much better MK and Carsland is wonderful. Hopefully because Disneyland is much more a local's park it will be a little while longer before they ruin it with Fast pass plus. I am sure it will come there soon too since Disney made such an investment.

I would be happy to report back after our trip, and hope I am surprised and come back if not a fan at least not hating it so much!

Depressed. Sigh. We love it there! (love Disneyland too)

I think you're swayed by the few ppl out here who are very vocally against FP+. It is still Disney World, it is still amazing, and we have in our experience gotten on just as much as before. You ask why to love FP+? Because we do so with less effort and less feeling of always having to be going to get the next FP ticket. More relaxing, better overall experience, same number of rides. I did not feel lines were longer. Reports have been coming out left and right in the last 2 weeks that lines there have been great this week. 20 min waits. So a lot of what you get here is information gotten by a few presented as if it will be the experience that YOU will get. And some of those who don't like FP+ haven't even tried it yet, but are just assuming lines are worse. Lines were, and now are, still determined by the crowd, and FP+ can help you a lot w that. Just like before, having a good plan is your best way to avoid the crowds.

 

[NavyDad]

I'm not feeling compelled to weigh in on the original question (yet)...
but as to the statement quoted above, it is hard to argue that the benefits of Universal's express pass aren't superior. But there is simply no way for Disney to recreate such a thing given how many on site rooms it has. The "exception would swallow the rule", as they say. The only way for this to work would be for Disney to limit it to Deluxe Resort guests. Can you imagine the dust storm that would cause?

I truly believe that the people who keep bring up UO's Express Pass are confusing the concepts of how the system works for THEM vs. how the system works as a WHOLE.

As UO's attendance and room capacity continues to increase you will see them weening their guests off of Express. You are already seeing that playing out with the Harry Potter areas (which are by far the busiest) and with their new resorts.

It is just not sustainable...

 

[Mkrop]

With the money they spent to change everything they will not be getting rid of it, so we either have to adjust, choose to wait in lines, or just not go. I vote adjust and make the best of it. Comparing it to Universal's is not an option because of the difference in number of resort hotels and the volume of people who go to the 6 Disney parks in Orlando.

We can also continue to let WDW know our likes and dislikes of the new system are so that hopefully they will listen to feedback and tweak this new system Do I see them scrapping it..no you are right too much invested, but maybe then can adjust some things for some of the most common complaints. Like add the 4th to the phone or if not that, then add more kiosks etc

 

[Cormoran]

I truly believe that the people who keep bring up UO's Express Pass are confusing the concepts of how the system works for THEM vs. how the system works as a WHOLE.

As UO's attendance and room capacity continues to increase you will see them weening their guests off of Express. You are already seeing that playing out with the Harry Potter areas (which are by far the busiest) and with their new resorts.

It is just not sustainable...

So in response to increased attendance Universal is reducing both the amount of rides that offer express pass and the amount of express passes they issue, and building more attractions.

Whereas, in response to increased attendance Disney has closed more attractions, added FP+ to rides that never required it, and offered FP+ to all attendees.

I know that the theme parks are different and shouldn't be compared, but IMO Universal seems to be focusing on the guest experience and Disney seems to be focused on the guest as a cash cow.

 

[NavyDad]

Interesting idea. Sort of like rotating EMHs. I'd have to study the numbers to see if it would work. Of course, you'd get people booking throwaway rooms all over the place (or split stays where they move from resort to resort) to ensure that they got FOTL access every day.

IMO this concept would just add complication to the system and likely add inefficiencies back into the system as well. The more inefficiency there is in a system the more chances that people can find ways to exploit inefficiencies (throw-away rooms and such).

I saw that another poster mentioned "abuse" of the old system. That is probably a harsh word so I would say people were previously able to exploit inefficiencies in the old system. People who planned ahead or just had a high knowledge level of WDW were able to take great advantage of that system (most of us included). Guests who had zero or little knowledge of the system were not using the inefficiencies of the system to their advantage. Their lack of knowledge actually benefited other guests...

I will say that Disney has intentionally placed some ineefficiencies in the new system:
1. 60/30 booking windows for on site vs. off site (incentive to stay in their hotels)
2. Physical queue location required to virtually queue for FP4 and up - this one still baffles me but I'm sure there is a reason behind it...

 

[Planogirl]

I truly believe that the people who keep bring up UO's Express Pass are confusing the concepts of how the system works for THEM vs. how the system works as a WHOLE.

As UO's attendance and room capacity continues to increase you will see them weening their guests off of Express. You are already seeing that playing out with the Harry Potter areas (which are by far the busiest) and with their new resorts.

It is just not sustainable...

I don't see why Universal would need to change a thing. They continually add new high demand attractions while the number of Express Passes available stays the same. It's true that the HP rides aren't included but I can see that more due to overwhelming demand that would cause the standby lines to be ridiculous if people had unlimited express access.

 

[Cormoran]

2. Physical queue location required to virtually queue for FP4 and up - this one still baffles me but I'm sure there is a reason behind it...

If Disney made obtaining the 4 FP+ more transparent, everyone would realize how few rides are truly available. In Epcot : Figment and EO, in DHS Muppets and Beauty and the Beast, in MK teacups and Dumbo. I think AK might have the best 4 th FP+ selection out of any of the parks.

 

[NavyDad]

So in response to increased attendance Universal is reducing both the amount of rides that offer express pass and the amount of express passes they issue, and building more attractions.

Whereas, in response to increased attendance Disney has closed more attractions, added FP+ to rides that never required it, and offered FP+ to all attendees.

I know that the theme parks are different and shouldn't be compared, but IMO Universal seems to be focusing on the guest experience and Disney seems to be focused on the guest as a cash cow.

LOL - the Execs running both parks are trying to make as much money as they possibly can make. That money is coming from their guests pockets. The strategies both use are going to depend on their current market situation. One park has been trying to increase attendance and grow over the last 5-10 years where as one is trying to maximize revenue per guest while possibly maintaining modest growth.

Back to my point though: When you have a park that has smaller attendance and smaller room capacity a system like express pass works great. Let's be clear though: Express Pass is NOT a virtual queue system. It is priority boarding in return for compensation. Giving priority boarding to those who pay for it is VERY inefficient and not at all sustainable. For example it is basically impossible for them to use it at the Harry Potter areas because of the high demand of those attractions.

The legacy and current versions of Fast Pass are virtual queueing systems with a few inefficiencis that Disney has thrown in for their own reasons. The old FP had the inefficiency of going to a physical location to virtually queue. The new system eliminates that for the first 3 times you virtually queue but keeps it for FP4+ (for some reason I don't understand). They also taint the efficiency by offering seperate 30/60 windows.

A virtual queue system is always going to be more efficient as a whole system - a priority boarding system is always going to work better for an individual person if they are one of the minority who can pay to use it.

 

[mom2rtk]

LOL - the Execs running both parks are trying to make as much money as they possibly can make. That money is coming from their guests pockets. The strategies both use are going to depend on their current market situation. One park has been trying to increase attendance and grow over the last 5-10 years where as one is trying to maximize revenue per guest while possibly maintaining modest growth.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. I think some of us just think that maximizing guest satisfaction is the best long-term way to accomplish that. It seems to me like that's the approach Disney used to take. It feels to me that lately they have been looking for short cuts around that piece of it.

YMMV.