FP + What we know and what we want to know

[g-dad66]

I answer far more questions than I ask, by probably 20 to one--conservatively--and many of them about FP. It is not a stretch to consider myself a very helpful poster.

I think most DISBoard readers recognize and appreciate who the most helpful posters on the Boards are -- even if we rarely take the time to thank you and the others for it.

 

[mousermerf]

First: If you truly believe that every guest cannot ride three or four major attractions per day without ever waiting in an hour long line, than you and I have not been going to the same WDW over the years. It is easily accomplished with proper FP usage and no "abuse".

Second it is matematically impossible for "more people" to ride an attaction if you eliminate all repeat riders and count on only "once per day" riders. The numbers simply cannot add up.

Wow.. your concept of math is WAAAAAY wrong.

Ride have a capacity. They each do not process enough people hourly to see every guest who visits a park in a day. This is a fact.

The only two rides - ONLY TWO - that have the capability of doing so are Spaceship Earth and Pirates. That's if the park is not crowded, like it's almost not worth it to open uncrowded.

And no, it is not mathematically impossible for more people to ride - if you eliminate repeat riders and replace them with new guests from the general park population, you have more new/unique riders than you did with repeats.

Everyone assumed FP+ for Soarin and Toy Story Mania will sell out. If you cant get more than 1, and it sells out, and in the past people got multiples.. by golly more unique people have FP than held FP previously.

 

[doconeill]

I brought it up to contest your statement that one didnt have to have inside information of any sort to user FPs to its fullest extent.

I see that it was relevant enough to bring up in your refuting mousermerf but with me its irrelevant.

How convenient.

You are imagining things...I didn't bring up late fastpass use in my post.

We are talking about the present and utilizing the system to it's fullest extent. There are still ways to utilize the system to it's fullest extent. There is no late FP return, so using that the refute an argument that didn't even involve it is irrelevant.

 

[JimmyV]

You seem to be implying that if someone pays the same admission rate as you, they don't deserve the same general experience unless they also put in man hours for research ahead of time?

I don't know if "deserve" factors into the equation. But people who don't put in advance planning receive a very different Disney experience than people who don't plan. Same as people who don't "plan ahead" to go to The French Laundry, Per Se, Next, or any other top restaurant will never have the same experience as those who do plan ahead, because the people who do not plan ahead will never get in.

Your argument is really falling off the rails here. Compare a person who has never been to WDW before and decides to make Christmas Day their very first foray into the MK and has no ADRs. Toss "deserve" aside and tell me if they are going to have the same experience as someone who has planned ahead? Under the FP+ system, you are now taking the planner and the non-planner and making them very close to "even" in terms of what they can accomplish. Why the need to level the playing field if doing so levels it at the lowest common denominator? Wouldn't it be better to try to raise the uninformed up to the level of the informed instead of dragging the informed down to the level of the uninformed?

 

[JimmyV]

Wow.. your concept of math is WAAAAAY wrong.

Ride have a capacity. They each do not process enough people hourly to see every guest who visits a park in a day. This is a fact.

The only two rides - ONLY TWO - that have the capability of doing so are Spaceship Earth and Pirates. That's if the park is not crowded, like it's almost not worth it to open uncrowded.

And no, it is not mathematically impossible for more people to ride - if you eliminate repeat riders and replace them with new guests from the general park population, you have more new/unique riders than you did with repeats.

Everyone assumed FP+ for Soarin and Toy Story Mania will sell out. If you cant get more than 1, and it sells out, and in the past people got multiples.. by golly more unique people have FP than held FP previously.

If an attraction runs at near capacity from RD to closing, the same number of fannies are going to be in the seats no matter what system you choose to use. You cannot mathematically increase capacity. You might get "different" riders. But you cannot get "more" riders.

 

[mousermerf]

I don't know if "deserve" factors into the equation. But people who don't put in advance planning receive a very different Disney experience than people who don't plan. Same as people who don't "plan ahead" to go to The French Laundry, Per Se, Next, or any other top restaurant will never have the same experience as those who do plan ahead, because the people who do not plan ahead will never get in.

Your argument is really falling off the rails here. Compare a person who has never been to WDW before and decides to make Christmas Day their very first foray into the MK and has no ADRs. Toss "deserve" aside and tell me if they are going to have the same experience as someone who has planned ahead? Under the FP+ person, you are now taking the planner and the non-planner and making them very close to "even" in terms of what they can accomplish. Why the need to level the playing field if doing so levels it at the lowest common denominator? Wouldn't it be better to try to raise the uniformed up to the level of the informed instead of dragging the informed down to the level of the uninformed?

Disney can't control what day people choose to arrive more often than other days. They try and to move people around and have succeeded in eliminating the lull in October.. but they dont control that particular valve of flow.

They can stop people from using more than 1 FP for an e-ticket.

Problem: solved.

 

[doconeill]

First: If you truly believe that every guest cannot ride three or four major attractions per day without ever waiting in an hour long line, than you and I have not been going to the same WDW over the years. It is easily accomplished with proper FP usage and no "abuse".

Second it is matematically impossible for "more people" to ride an attaction if you eliminate all repeat riders and count on only "once per day" riders. The numbers simply cannot add up.

It depends on how you define "people". The maximum capacity of the attraction can't change. But by "more people", he means more different people...no "duplicates".

 

[mousermerf]

If an attraction runs at near capacity from RD to closing, the same number of fannies are going to be in the seats no matter what system you choose to use. You cannot mathematically increase capacity. You might get "different" riders. But you cannot get "more" riders.

Different is more, that's the point. More actual people experienced the ride than would without the change. Without the change the number of people who see the ride is less.

That's the problem. That's what is going to be fixed. You seem to be ignoring that as the basic premise.

More unique riders equal more happy people. Net gain.

 

[doggydoc]

Wow.. your concept of math is WAAAAAY wrong.

You know I'm about done with your insults and holier than thou attitude.

 

[bjakmom]

I think anyone who thinks limiting FP distribution to "possibly" (as they did in testing) 1 E ticket ride per day and thinks it may lead to a kinder gentler WDW, was probably not there during the years before FP when RD was a running, trampling, TSMM-type affair every day in every park - even in every land in MK - even before they ever had opening shows. I feel that's one thing FP had a calming effect on - at least you knew you could make your way to the FP machine and ride an E ticket ride at some point without a long line - in the old days the line was always HUUUUGE immediately - no one was heading for the FP line and walking away.

 

[g-dad66]

More unique riders equal more happy people. Net gain.

Not necessarily.

Depends on how large a group we super-users were.

 

[mousermerf]

I think anyone who thinks limiting FP distribution to "possibly" (as they did in testing) 1 E ticket ride per day and thinks it may lead to a kinder gentler WDW, was probably not there during the years before FP when RD was a running, trampling, TSMM-type affair every day in every park - even in every land in MK - even before they ever had opening shows. I feel that's one thing FP had a calming effect on - at least you knew you could make your way to the FP machine and ride an E ticket ride at some point without a long line - in the old days the line was always HUUUUGE immediately - no one was heading for the FP line and walking away.

And.. you forget what WDW was like prior to all-access ride tickets. You comment from your reference point and consider that the baseline. It is not.

Guest limited in what they could do, by way of ticket books, resulted in short lines at most attraction and no "rushing" to be first in line anywhere.

 

[mousermerf]

Not necessarily.

Depends on how large a group we super-users were.

A minority that on average takes up 2x-3x as much resources as other groups. A problem.

 

[doconeill]

Not necessarily.

Depends on how large a group we super-users were.

A minority that on average takes up 2x-3x as much resources as other groups. A problem.

I thought we were a very, very small minority. How is it we take up 2x-3x more resources?

 

[mousermerf]

I thought we were a very, very small minority. How is it we take up 2x-3x more resources?

By pulling a FP for a ride 2-3 times. It's not hard math.

 

[DougEMG]

The guests who are going to not benefit from this change are the minority. The majority of guests will benefit.

How is that not good for guests? Again, seeing past the end of one's own nose.. whatever happened to caring about other people?

I totally agree that the majority of guests will benefit, unfortunately for me I'm in that minority that will not benefit. An even bigger annoyance is that as a DVC owner I go a lot (30+ days every year), so my reduction of benefits will effect me a lot more than someone's gain in benefits who only goes 4-5 days every 2-3 years. Bummer for me!

What I'm interested in is how Disney plans to get new inexperienced users to use the FP+ system. Right now lots of people don't know how FP works even after they've been in the parks. How is someone that has never been going to know what they should be booking? Will Disney just make suggestions for them? Personally I see that being the only way that it will work. New users get some FP and Disney gets to allocate them to the rides that are under utilized.

 

[doconeill]

A minority that on average takes up 2x-3x as much resources as other groups. A problem.

By pulling a FP for a ride 2-3 times. It's not hard math.

False math, me thinks. The resources required for Disney to operate the attraction is the same whether I use 3 FPs at the attraction, or 3 people use 1.

If what you really mean is, "use 2x-3x as many FP attraction slots", then obviously, yes.

But in the end it seems like they want to punish the people who get more Fastpasses because others fail to avail themselves of them.

And for the record, I'm all for one FP per attraction. I actually thought that the Dream Fastpasses were a way of testing that idea...but they decided to go a different route.

 

[mousermerf]

I totally agree that the majority of guests will benefit, unfortunately for me I'm in that minority that will not benefit. An even bigger annoyance is that as a DVC owner I go a lot (30+ days every year), so my reduction of benefits will effect me a lot more than someone's gain in benefits who only goes 4-5 days every 2-3 years. Bummer for me!

What I'm interested in is how Disney plans to get new inexperienced users to use the FP+ system. Right now lots of people don't know how FP works even after they've been in the parks. How is someone that has never been going to know what they should be booking? Will Disney just make suggestions for them? Personally I see that being the only way that it will work. New users get some FP and Disney gets to allocate them to the rides that are under utilized.

Resort Guests and Annual Passholders (that includes DVC) will be reminded along with their reservations and such. There is no worry about getting enough people informed to utilize the system at a functional rate.

Remember, even with the changes and expansion of options there still wont be enough FP+ for every single guest in a park on a given day.

 

[mousermerf]

False math, me thinks. The resources required for Disney to operate the attraction is the same whether I use 3 FPs at the attraction, or 3 people use 1.

If what you really mean is, "use 2x-3x as many FP attraction slots", then obviously, yes.

But in the end it seems like they want to punish the people who get more Fastpasses because others fail to avail themselves of them.

And for the record, I'm all for one FP per attraction. I actually thought that the Dream Fastpasses were a way of testing that idea...but they decided to go a different route.

First off, no. If you ride a ride multiple times you are using up the resource those times. Whether it had to be running or not for the day is irrelevant. Slot were not going to go empty.

Using anything at WDW costs WDW money. Parks need a minimum of 10k guests per day to stay in the black.

Not 3,333 guests doing everything 3 times.

 

[g-dad66]

Guest limited in what they could do, by way of ticket books, resulted in short lines at most attraction and no "rushing" to be first in line anywhere.

Ack! I remember the days of the ticket-books. What a pain that system was, compared to the system which followed it. And then FP improved the system even further.

I hate to see FP+ taking us back to the 70's.

How about if I just promise to start spending more in the parks? Will that convince Disney to let me get FPs for more than one headliner per day?