FP + What we know and what we want to know

[doconeill]

But you did Blanche, ya did.

Not every guest knew the FP tricks and that you had to be there at rope drop. How is leveling the playing field so that no one NEEDS inside info to enjoy the attraction some great evil?

No one needed "inside information". Fastpass was publicly advertised by Disney. Yet there were those who didn't understand it, couldn't understand it, couldn't use it.

There are plenty of web sites, guide books, etc. that explain it, how to utilize it best, etc. Yet some guests didn't avail themselves of that information. Didn't ask, either.

And no one here was part of a secret cabal trying to keep Fastpass a secret. Nor ways to maximize it's use. We were here helping people.

So to keep claiming that people needed to be members of the Super-Secret Fastpass Cabal in order to use it is disingenuous.

And all the new system does is shift the audience who can take the most advantage of it. Instead of Rope Droppers, it's those who can get online up to 60 days in advance, can navigate the Disney web site without it breaking on them, get all their information input correctly, and make those FP+ reservations. The audience may get shifted around a bit, but there will still be plenty who will not understand it, not be able to use it, and now, according to a previous post by you, may be completely excluded from it.

 

[Doug7856]

Deleted. sorry it wasn't relevant.

 

[g-dad66]

Will these changes make the the parks more friendly, less stampedeish, and reduce stress levels of parents and kids?

Interesting question!

OT here -- but one thing that has definitely made the parks less stampedish has been the elimination of Rope Drop at Epcot and Hollywood Studios. I don't think I've read a single negative comment on these Boards about that change.

Further OT -- I keep thinking that at some point we're going to have to drop the term RD (Rope Drop) on these Boards, as new readers will probably be wondering "What the heck is a Rope Drop? I never saw one."

How about PO (for Park Opening)?

 

[linzbear]

The guests who are going to not benefit from this change are the minority. The majority of guests will benefit.

How is that not good for guests? Again, seeing past the end of one's own nose.. whatever happened to caring about other people?

Because they planned and thought to seek out information, they should be allowed to ride E-rides 4-5 times. IMO, they think that non-planners should suffer the consequences of their ignorance by not being able to ride E-rides. Because of total ride capacity, there is no way for ignorant non-planners to ride E-rides once and also have people who know how to use the system ride 4-5 times, but they can't seem to understand that.

Obviously, Disney feels differently about this. It doesn't bother me, I only ever rode E-rides once, maybe twice per day.

 

[mesaboy2]

No one needed "inside information". Fastpass was publicly advertised by Disney. Yet there were those who didn't understand it, couldn't understand it, couldn't use it.

There are plenty of web sites, guide books, etc. that explain it, how to utilize it best, etc. Yet some guests didn't avail themselves of that information. Didn't ask, either.

And no one here was part of a secret cabal trying to keep Fastpass a secret. Nor ways to maximize it's use. We were here helping people.

So to keep claiming that people needed to be members of the Super-Secret Fastpass Cabal in order to use it is disingenuous.

And all the new system does is shift the audience who can take the most advantage of it. Instead of Rope Droppers, it's those who can get online up to 60 days in advance, can navigate the Disney web site without it breaking on them, get all their information input correctly, and make those FP+ reservations. The audience may get shifted around a bit, but there will still be plenty who will not understand it, not be able to use it, and now, according to a previous post by you, may be completely excluded from it.

As usual, spot on.

I answer far more questions than I ask, by probably 20 to one--conservatively--and many of them about FP. It is not a stretch to consider myself a very helpful poster.

It gets very, very old to be consistently accused of FP devilry because I took the time and effort to learn how it works and how to make it work for me using widely-available information without breaking any rules defined by WDW as a whole.

 

[DougEMG]

I know it's asking a lot for people to see past the end of their own nose but...

If Toy Story Mania and Soarin are limited to 1 FP+ per person per day and they still sell out, that means that NEW GUESTS other than those with past experience with the old FP will (and heck, even some who knew the system but didn't get there early enough) will now ride those attractions. More people will ride them than had ridden them previously.

How is that not a net positive?

Yes, you may not ride it 2-3 times, but more people will ride that attraction in a regular operational day. How is that not good?

Toy Story and Soaring aren't big rides for me to begin with, so I've never really cared if I get on them or not, but I do understand why some guests would be very disappointed if they couldn't get on them.

The way I see it though is that the solution to the problem on those 2 rides will make it that much harder for me to ride anything else without waiting in the SB line. Surely there had to be a better solution than this if the problem was just those two rides.

 

[mousermerf]

It's not playing on emotions to point out that having to "share a benefit" with other guests is what people are upset about. Anyone can get in line for the attraction and ride it as many times as they want in a day. So no, it's not about getting to ride.

It's about the perk of a short line and people are upset they have to share that benefit with other people.

Saying "I deserve it and other people don't" is selfish and boorish behavior. Again, we're back to stating facts that people just don't want to hear.

 

[UNCFanatik]

No one needed "inside information". Fastpass was publicly advertised by Disney. Yet there were those who didn't understand it, couldn't understand it, couldn't use it.

There are plenty of web sites, guide books, etc. that explain it, how to utilize it best, etc. Yet some guests didn't avail themselves of that information. Didn't ask, either.

And no one here was part of a secret cabal trying to keep Fastpass a secret. Nor ways to maximize it's use. We were here helping people.

So to keep claiming that people needed to be members of the Super-Secret Fastpass Cabal in order to use it is disingenuous.

And all the new system does is shift the audience who can take the most advantage of it. Instead of Rope Droppers, it's those who can get online up to 60 days in advance, can navigate the Disney web site without it breaking on them, get all their information input correctly, and make those FP+ reservations. The audience may get shifted around a bit, but there will still be plenty who will not understand it, not be able to use it, and now, according to a previous post by you, may be completely excluded from it.

I would disagree with you on previous FP usage. It was not a level playing field because everyone did not operate from the same knowledge base. You did need some level of "inside information" to know FPs coudl be used past the FP window. Using Robo's much celebrated formula:

1. Observation: The FP signage and tickets say I need to be back within the printed time frame
2. Logic. I need to be back within the printed time frame. Why would a first time guest that is using the FP as ascribed even THINK to ask to use it beyond the time window printed on the ticket?

Not all guidebooks advertised this bit of information either.

What is disingenuous is to think that the super user would not have benefited as much if more people knew about how to take advantage of late usage

And for those "super users" that did hoard FPs with the intent of giving them away later as "pixie dust", you actually did take an FP away from some one else.

 

[doggydoc]

The guests who are going to not benefit from this change are the minority. The majority of guests will benefit.

How is that not good for guests? Again, seeing past the end of one's own nose.. whatever happened to caring about other people?

If they are able to understand and utilize this new system it possibly could be, I have my doubts. It certainly won't be a positive for me. And they could have achieved the same effect with less draconian measures. Why not limit the number of FP's per individual e-ticket per person instead of a hard limit on total FP's? Why not extend the time for ANY second FP after taking an e-ticket FP? Why the inability to get ANY FP's at a second park after hopping, if I am there later in the day I have no advantage over a newbie for one.

 

[bjakmom]

You don't have to schedule 60 days out any more than someone has to get up for Rope Drop currently - I fail to see the big difference in effort on anyone's part. People just dont like that the effort isnt what they prefer of the two and suddenly it's unfair.

I understand the theory that you can do nothing, use no system, and just wait in SB lines all day. I find it very hard to believe that doing that would not affect Disneys return business. We use RD, we use FP - we bring our kids, our grandkids and our family and friends. They all enjoy their trips because they use a system that allows them to alter standing in line with using FP throughout the day. We all return and others ask to return with us because we are having FUN - not standing in long lines all day (not that we dont occasionally stand in one in between FPs).
I have many friends who have made trips with their families over the years and did not utilize crowd calendars, advance ADRs, RD or FP during their stays (again, didn't really want to 'plan' and didn't understand the system even though disney goes to great trouble to explain it - can't imagine these families working the technology, registering their tickets in the system and scheduling rides 60 days out.) They all came home and thought we were crazy that we enjoy our WDW trips - they hated it - stood in long lines all day, couldn't find anywhere to eat, and have never returned - their children will likely not return - their grandchildren will likely not grow up enjoying WDW vacations.
Now maybe WDW has a never ending stream of new guests and we are not their target audience - but this is my personal experience and the only families I know who return to WDW are those who use the available FP system to minimize their wait times. We certainly have increased our trips since FP was introduced - and we can squeeze in more shorter trips and still do what we want. The thought of one E ticket FP per day would drastically increase our wait time. So "IF" the FP system becomes restrictive to the point where we are not enjoying our days, we will just decrease our visits - maybe it won't even be noticed.

Yes, I can skip RD, I can skip FP, I can skip WDW - not the biggest deal in my life - but it sure was a fun ride while it lasted! LOL I too am hoping many of the rumors are just not true or will be tweaked back to a 'daily' FP system.

 

[JimmyV]

I know it's asking a lot for people to see past the end of their own nose but...

If Toy Story Mania and Soarin are limited to 1 FP+ per person per day and they still sell out, that means that NEW GUESTS other than those with past experience with the old FP will (and heck, even some who knew the system but didn't get there early enough) will now ride those attractions. More people will ride them than had ridden them previously.

How is that not a net positive?

Yes, you may not ride it 2-3 times, but more people will ride that attraction in a regular operational day. How is that not good?

I think you assume too much. IF the new system is rolled out with tiered attraction levels as tested, there is no guarantee that every guest will be able to economically enjoy every attraction. If you look at a very crowded day at Epcot where the lines for both Soarin' and Test Track reach over 70 minutes (and in some instances, by a lot) by 10:00 a.m., limiting the guest to a FP+ choice of just one of these attractions assures that this guest will have to wait in a 70+ minute line unless they get to the park at RD. So the new system has not leveled the playing field at all for the guest who shows up at 11:00. And under the original FP system, a guest who showed up at 11:00 was virtually guaranteed the ability to enjoy both attractions with minimal wait, as FPs could be obtained for both during the course of the day. The only people who could not obtain a FP for both Soarin' and TT were those who either arrived very late, (or "hopped in" in the afternoon), or those who were so profoundly clueless that they didn't know what FPs were or how to use them. With FP+, (assuming a limited, tiered roll-out), no guest, even the most savvy, can obtain FPs to both attractions, assuring every guest of a horrendous SB wait at one of the two main attractions unless they arrive at RD. Eventually, people will figure this out, and every guest will aim to arrive at RD, a la The Toy Story Death March. So how does this benefit the guests?

The same scenario will play out in the MK at the "mountains" and ETWB. Right now, any guest can obtain FPs for all three attractions. In the future, they might get to skip the line at only one. You seem to harp on the issue of guests riding the same ride over and over, and see the FP+ system as a way to curtail that, as if that is a good thing in and of itself. But even assuming that this is a laudable goal, not enough attention has been paid to the fact that savvy Disney guests who have strategized how to avoid EVER waiting in a 90 minute line will be forced to do just that, or else skip certain attractions for which they were unable to pre-register for a FP+. And yes, certain tweaks and changes might be made before full roll out. But if enough changes are implemented, then FP+ will begin to look an awful lot like FP-. And I doubt that this is what WDW has in mind.

 

[doconeill]

I would disagree with you on previous FP usage. It was not a level playing field because everyone did not operate from the same knowledge base. You did need some level of "inside information" to know FPs coudl be used past the FP window. Using Robo's much celebrated formula:

Using FPs outside the window is now irrelevant and has been for 10 months. There is no need to keep bringing it up. But yet, that information was NOT KEPT SECRET. I concede it was not as widely available as the basics of using Fastpass. But still, irrelevant for the remainder of this discussion.

 

[mousermerf]

If they are able to understand and utilize this new system it possibly could be, I have my doubts. It certainly won't be a positive for me. And they could have achieved the same effect with less draconian measures. Why not limit the number of FP's per individual e-ticket per person instead of a hard limit on total FP's? Why not extend the time for ANY second FP after taking an e-ticket FP? Why the inability to get ANY FP's at a second park after hopping, if I am there later in the day I have no advantage over a newbie for one.

If they dont use it, the standby queue will be shorter because the FP+ queue will have less people in it than its maximum capacity. So either more people use FP+ than previously used FP or the standby wait time goes down.

 

[mousermerf]

I think you assume too much. IF the new system is rolled out with tiered attraction levels as tested, there is no guarantee that every guest will be able to economically enjoy every attraction. If you look at a very crowded day at Epcot where the lines for both Soarin' and Test Track reach over 70 minutes (and in some instances, by a lot) by 10:00 a.m., limiting the guest to a FP+ choice of just one of these attractions assures that this guest will have to wait in a 70+ minute line unless they get to the park at RD. So the new system has not leveled the playing field at all for the guest who shows up at 11:00. And under the original FP system, a guest who showed up at 11:00 was virtually guaranteed the ability to enjoy both attractions with minimal wait, as FPs could be obtained for both during the course of the day. The only people who could not obtain a FP for both Soarin' and TT were those who either arrived very late, (or "hopped in" in the afternoon), or those who were so profoundly clueless that they didn't know what FPs were or how to use them. With FP+, (assuming a limited, tiered roll-out), no guest, even the most savvy, can obtain FPs to both attractions, assuring every guest of a horrendous SB wait at one of the two main attractions unless they arrive at RD. Eventually, people will figure this out, and every guest will aim to arrive at RD, a la The Toy Story Death March. So how does this benefit the guests?

The same scenario will play out in the MK at the "mountains" and ETWB. Right now, any guest can obtain FPs for all three attractions. In the future, they might get to skip the line at only one. You seem to harp on the issue of guests riding the same ride over and over, and see the FP+ system as a way to curtail that, as if that is a good thing in and of itself. But even assuming that this is a laudable goal, not enough attention has been paid to the fact that savvy Disney guests who have strategized how to avoid EVER waiting in a 90 minute line will be forced to do just that, or else skip certain attractions for which they were unable to pre-register for a FP+. And yes, certain tweaks and changes might be made before full roll out. But if enough changes are implemented, then FP+ will begin to look an awful lot like FP-. And I doubt that this is what WDW has in mind.

I never said "every guest" - every guest cant ride the major e-tickets in an average day anyways.

I said more people - different people, not the same person riding 3x with a FP. FP+ forces there to be 3 DIFFERENT people.

 

[JimmyV]

I have many friends who have made trips with their families over the years and did not utilize crowd calendars, advance ADRs, RD or FP during their stays (again, didn't really want to 'plan' and didn't understand the system even though disney goes to great trouble to explain it - can't imagine these families working the technology, registering their tickets in the system and scheduling rides 60 days out.) They all came home and thought we were crazy that we enjoy our WDW trips - they hated it - stood in long lines all day, couldn't find anywhere to eat, and have never returned - their children will likely not return - their grandchildren will likely not grow up enjoying WDW vacations.

Now maybe WDW has a never ending stream of new guests and we are not their target audience - but this is my personal experience and the only families I know who return to WDW are those who use the available FP system to minimize their wait times.

Agree 100% with this. Every person I know who does not "get" WDW went about their vacation in exactly the wrong way. Seems to me that RFID is going to widen the gap between people who can and will plan ahead, versus people who "wing it" like a day at Six Flags.

 

[g-dad66]

The way I see it though is that the solution to the problem on those 2 rides will make it that much harder for me to ride anything else without waiting in the SB line. Surely there had to be a better solution than this if the problem was just those two rides.

Yes. Disney could have simply limited everyone to one Fast Pass per day for those two particular rides.

So I have to think that FP+ is about a whole lot more than keeping super-users from riding headliners multiple times.

 

[UNCFanatik]

Using FPs outside the window is now irrelevant and has been for 10 months. There is no need to keep bringing it up. But yet, that information was NOT KEPT SECRET. I concede it was not as widely available as the basics of using Fastpass. But still, irrelevant for the remainder of this discussion.

I brought it up to contest your statement that one didnt have to have inside information of any sort to user FPs to its fullest extent.

I see that it was relevant enough to bring up in your refuting mousermerf but with me its irrelevant.

How convenient.

 

[mousermerf]

Agree 100% with this. Every person I know who does not "get" WDW went about their vacation in exactly the wrong way. Seems to me that RFID is going to widen the gap between people who can and will plan ahead, versus people who "wing it" like a day at Six Flags.

You seem to be implying that if someone pays the same admission rate as you, they don't deserve the same general experience unless they also put in man hours for research ahead of time?

 

[JimmyV]

I never said "every guest" - every guest cant ride the major e-tickets in an average day anyways.

I said more people - different people, not the same person riding 3x with a FP. FP+ forces there to be 3 DIFFERENT people.

First: If you truly believe that every guest cannot ride three or four major attractions per day without ever waiting in an hour long line, than you and I have not been going to the same WDW over the years. It is easily accomplished with proper FP usage and no "abuse".

Second it is matematically impossible for "more people" to ride an attaction if you eliminate all repeat riders and count on only "once per day" riders. The numbers simply cannot add up.

 

[doconeill]

If they dont use it, the standby queue will be shorter because the FP+ queue will have less people in it than its maximum capacity. So either more people use FP+ than previously used FP or the standby wait time goes down.

I'm not sure I buy that argument. If they don't utilize FP+, they must experience the attraction in the standby queue still. But now, others who have already utilized their FP+ and can't get more would ALSO need to be in the standby queue if they want to experience the attraction. So the standby line will be _longer_. If at the same tome FP+ is underutilized, then the standby line will move faster, but be physically longer. To me, it's likely to be a wash - unless people just skip more attractions rather than wait.