FP+ doesn't make lines longer.

[IamGroot]

Speaking for myself, I am not riding more rides. I am spending more time in lines and then leaving the parks early because I don't want to wait in more lines. Perhaps a survey should be posted asking if people are experiencing more rides with FP+, less rides with FP+, or the same amount of rides with FP+.

Because a poll does no good. There are hundreds, if not thousands of people on these boards convinced that FP+ is the devil and ruining everything. So will they likely vote in favor of it? No.

Also, attendence is causing the problem. Not FP+. It's like comparing what you paid for a candy bar now and 25 years ago. Things have changed. The economy is recovering, more people are taking vacations, weeks previously slow are now busy, etc etc.

FP+ was literally created to help minimize waits.

Blaming FP+ on wait times instead of attendence is like standing next to a bonfire and claiming global warming is the cause of your warmth.

 

[ghtx]

Fastpasses, new or old system, are a ZERO SUM GAME. This means that by making your wait shorter on one attraction, you make it longer on every other attraction where you don't have a FP. Fastpasses simply create an artificial redistribution of guests throughout the park.

Is the wait for pirates longer? Yes. But in turn that means that other waits are now shorter because more people are riding pirates every day. We can't pretend that FP is broken because one attraction is a longer wait, when the overall waits for an entire day are the same as before.

Actually I just re-read the OP and this isn't quite true.

It's true that the number of rides per day will be the same with or without FP (e.g. if 5,000 people can ride Peter Pan per day, that will be true with or without FP), but that doesn't mean that the total waiting time will the same with or without FP. In fact, the whole point of FP is to re-allocate guests so that they don't have to spend as much time waiting in queues.

If FP works, the net waiting time should decrease, not stay the same. So, it follows that if FP is working really terribly then in theory it might increase the total waiting time. I am pretty sure that it isn't doing this (the reduction in waits for the headliners more than offsets the modest wait increases for the less-popular rides), but it's at least possible.

 

[IamGroot]

You said 2 things in OP

1) FP+ doesn't make lines longer
2) Lines are longer (because you get to ride more stuff)

Except for factoring in greater efficiency and inefficiency, your zero sum math only holds if the same number of guests wait in the same number of lines they did before.

The point is that the issuance of FP+ doesn't make lines longer inherently. But of it's convenience gets more people to ride more rides than they typically would before, you see more competition for any seat on a ride during a single day.

Ultimately, it's either a benefit or a break even for everyone, unless you were a commando FP- user that is getting less now.

 

[IamGroot]

Actually I just re-read the OP and this isn't quite true.

It's true that the number of rides per day will be the same with or without FP (e.g. if 5,000 people can ride Peter Pan per day, that will be true with or without FP), but that doesn't mean that the total waiting time will the same with or without FP. In fact, the whole point of FP is to re-allocate guests so that they don't have to spend as much time waiting in queues.

If FP works, the net waiting time should decrease, not stay the same. So, it follows that if FP is working really terribly then in theory it might increase the total waiting time. I am pretty sure that it isn't doing this (the reduction in waits for the headliners more than offsets the modest wait increases for the less-popular rides), but it's at least possible.

[/QUOTE

The initial purpose of FP was to get guests to ride more A,B,C ticket rides. When they went to a single general admission ticket, everyone went to the big rides and ignored the lesser ones, as they no longer needed to use a ticket for them.

FP gave people a way to get a return time for a big ride, so they could go on smaller attractions until the FP time came up.

 

[cmwade77]

Actually FP+ does increase wait times by reducing capacity per hour at certain attractions.

Due to how it works, FP has already been proven in the past to be a bad idea for attractions with large capacity, such as boat rides like Pirates and small world, omnimover rides such as mansion, even journey into imagination with figment is a high enough capacity that we know FP only increases wait times by reducing capacity. This is a proven fact from when regular FP was first introduced and the reason that they pulled it from the Hugh capacity attractions like Mansion.

Then if capacity per hour is reduced on some attractions, those people have to go somewhere, but where? Well some will go to the shops, as Disney is hoping, but most will go to other attractions, thereby increasing the wait times for those attractions.

This is why with the same attendance wait times are running longer with FP+.

Bottom line is I have been able to keep a close eye on wait times and they have increased. I mean for example, on average there is now a 30+ minute wait for Figment when it rarely had more than a 5 minute wait before fp+. Again, this has to do with the fact that adding FP reduces its capacity per hour.

 

[lugnut33]

No, they stay the same. Some are now longer while some are shorter. The net change for an entire day of touring the park is the same.

Not for me because even though there are shorter lines for the super-headliners, I would have never gone into the standby line to begin with. The attractions I would wait in standby line for now all have longer lines, therefore I personally ride less attractions due to FP+.

Your results may vary.

Oh, I was also able to abuse the heck out of FP+ a few months ago by showing up to MK on a day the parks were dead. It was awesome. So, if you want to love FP+ you should just show up when the park is dead.

 

[cmwade77]

Actually I just re-read the OP and this isn't quite true.

It's true that the number of rides per day will be the same with or without FP (e.g. if 5,000 people can ride Peter Pan per day, that will be true with or without FP), but that doesn't mean that the total waiting time will the same with or without FP. In fact, the whole point of FP is to re-allocate guests so that they don't have to spend as much time waiting in queues.

If FP works, the net waiting time should decrease, not stay the same. So, it follows that if FP is working really terribly then in theory it might increase the total waiting time. I am pretty sure that it isn't doing this (the reduction in waits for the headliners more than offsets the modest wait increases for the less-popular rides), but it's at least possible.

[/QUOTE

The initial purpose of FP was to get guests to ride more A,B,C ticket rides. When they went to a single general admission ticket, everyone went to the big rides and ignored the lesser ones, as they no longer needed to use a ticket for them.

FP gave people a way to get a return time for a big ride, so they could go on smaller attractions until the FP time came up.

Actually the original intent was to get people out of lines and into shops and restaurants to spend money. Even Disney has admitted as much.

 

[lugnut33]

Unfortunately, OP, the conditions you lay out in your first paragraph don't hold. From looking at numbers attendance at all the parks is higher now than even 2 years ago. And obviously you cannot stuff more people in the parks on the days the parks have shut down early because they are at capacity, so the increases will be coming on "quieter" days. So increased attendance has come at the same time as the full rollout of FP+, and lines have become longer. FP+ is going to take the blame since that is the change which is visible to us.

I also understand the frustration from people who feel they are losing their ability to just come to WDW with minimal planning and just make up their minds about what to do as they go. It is a vacation after all. But with increased attendance those days would be gone anyway. With more people wanting to take in the same number of attractions, there needs to be a way to get them organized. It is better that the conflict between people who really want to do an attraction can be settled at their computers before they come, rather than in a crowded park on a hot day with kids watching. FP+ may not be perfectly designed, and it may not be perfectly functional. But it is no more arbitrary than saying that the fastest runners at rope drop get the best times.

I don't think anybody doubts the parks are busier do they?

This was from June of 2014

Updated: 6/3 at 6:30 a.m. Walt Disney World's Magic Kingdom remains the world's most popular theme park, with a 6% increase to 18.6 million visitors a year, according to the annual theme park industry attendance report.

 

[bella2117]

Just an observation I made while waiting standby for mine train and I'll say that line moved pretty quick. Once we got close to the merge I was watching the CM deal with both the fastpass and SB line and they rocked it. As soon as the last mickey was scanned they were flying people through the SB line. It was very efficient. Other rides definitely need some tweeking still but I think it depends on the CM. I liked what surferdave posted because it's very accurate.

 

[IamGroot]

Actually FP+ does increase wait times by reducing capacity per hour at certain attractions.

Due to how it works, FP has already been proven in the past to be a bad idea for attractions with large capacity, such as boat rides like Pirates and small world, omnimover rides such as mansion, even journey into imagination with figment is a high enough capacity that we know FP only increases wait times by reducing capacity. This is a proven fact from when regular FP was first introduced and the reason that they pulled it from the Hugh capacity attractions like Mansion.

Then if capacity per hour is reduced on some attractions, those people have to go somewhere, but where? Well some will go to the shops, as Disney is hoping, but most will go to other attractions, thereby increasing the wait times for those attractions.

This is why with the same attendance wait times are running longer with FP+.

Bottom line is I have been able to keep a close eye on wait times and they have increased. I mean for example, on average there is now a 30+ minute wait for Figment when it rarely had more than a 5 minute wait before fp+. Again, this has to do with the fact that adding FP reduces its capacity per hour.

Explain how FP is magically decreasing capacity.

 

[clsteve]

Actually FP+ does increase wait times by reducing capacity per hour at certain attractions.

Due to how it works, FP has already been proven in the past to be a bad idea for attractions with large capacity, such as boat rides like Pirates and small world, omnimover rides such as mansion, even journey into imagination with figment is a high enough capacity that we know FP only increases wait times by reducing capacity. This is a proven fact from when regular FP was first introduced and the reason that they pulled it from the Hugh capacity attractions like Mansion.

Then if capacity per hour is reduced on some attractions, those people have to go somewhere, but where? Well some will go to the shops, as Disney is hoping, but most will go to other attractions, thereby increasing the wait times for those attractions.

This is why with the same attendance wait times are running longer with FP+.

Bottom line is I have been able to keep a close eye on wait times and they have increased. I mean for example, on average there is now a 30+ minute wait for Figment when it rarely had more than a 5 minute wait before fp+. Again, this has to do with the fact that adding FP reduces its capacity per hour.

Yep.

The initial purpose of FP was to get guests to ride more A,B,C ticket rides. When they went to a single general admission ticket, everyone went to the big rides and ignored the lesser ones, as they no longer needed to use a ticket for them.

Nope.

The Execs have been very upfront about it's purpose - higher per guest spend. They've said it many, many times.

We can wax poetic and hyperbolic about guest value all day long. But, it doesn't change its purpose from the very beginning. Ride fairness is not it.

 

[JoshuaShaw]

so let's just let this whole debate/complaint end.

Thank goodness you're here to set us all straight. Can you tackle alcohol in the parks next?

 

[chigirl]

Being someone who has 4 years of experience with RFID technology (I ran a major national department store where we used RFID to do our weekly inventories), they are also gathering a lot of information with those RFID chips AND with every click to the MDE website. Yes, fast pass plus is meant to keep people in the parks, versus other Orlando attractions...but can you imagine what they are doing with the data they pull from MDE and the RFID chips?

 

[kbelle8995]

During both Legacy FP and FP+, on most attraction, at some point the FP line and the standby merged. So in order for FP to get in, the standby line is stopped and FP line is allowed in. This stops the standby line so that the wait is longer maybe not vastly so but there is some additional wait time. Especially in a majority of Fantasyland attraction.

And for those of you who think that stating this is not so will stop the discussion, It in no way going to stop assertions on either side.

Nature of the boards.

 

[Suvadoo]

Being someone who has 4 years of experience with RFID technology (I ran a major national department store where we used RFID to do our weekly inventories), they are also gathering a lot of information with those RFID chips AND with every click to the MDE website. Yes, fast pass plus is meant to keep people in the parks, versus other Orlando attractions...but can you imagine what they are doing with the data they pull from MDE and the RFID chips?

I'm involved in some research and I am familiar with "data mining". But most of the time the researchers do not have the manpower to analyze the data they were so busy collecting.

In Disney's case, I think they're going to use it for marketing. Is there something else?

 

[ghtx]

Actually the original intent was to get people out of lines and into shops and restaurants to spend money. Even Disney has admitted as much.

The Execs have been very upfront about it's purpose - higher per guest spend. They've said it many, many times.

We can wax poetic and hyperbolic about guest value all day long. But, it doesn't change its purpose from the very beginning. Ride fairness is not it.

The goal of reducing wait times is the same goal as the goal of getting people into shops and restaurants to spend more money. They way they get people there is by getting them out of queues.

 

[Laketravis]

The goal of reducing wait times is the same goal as the goal of getting people into shops and restaurants to spend more money. They way they get people there is by getting them out of queues.

Or helping them to ride less.

 

[ghtx]

Actually I just re-read the OP and this isn't quite true.

It's true that the number of rides per day will be the same with or without FP (e.g. if 5,000 people can ride Peter Pan per day, that will be true with or without FP), but that doesn't mean that the total waiting time will the same with or without FP. In fact, the whole point of FP is to re-allocate guests so that they don't have to spend as much time waiting in queues.

If FP works, the net waiting time should decrease, not stay the same. So, it follows that if FP is working really terribly then in theory it might increase the total waiting time. I am pretty sure that it isn't doing this (the reduction in waits for the headliners more than offsets the modest wait increases for the less-popular rides), but it's at least possible.

The initial purpose of FP was to get guests to ride more A,B,C ticket rides. When they went to a single general admission ticket, everyone went to the big rides and ignored the lesser ones, as they no longer needed to use a ticket for them.

FP gave people a way to get a return time for a big ride, so they could go on smaller attractions until the FP time came up.

I don't understand what your response has to do with my original comment. What you say is true, but my point still stands that FP/FP+ can reduce total time waiting in queue despite having no effect on capacity. That seems to contradict your conclusion in your OP (or maybe I'm missing something).

 

[Jennasis]

I dunno. A 35 minute wait for NEMO wasn't worth the 50 minute wait instead of the usual 60 at Soarin'.

 

[ghtx]

The goal of reducing wait times is the same goal as the goal of getting people into shops and restaurants to spend more money. They way they get people there is by getting them out of queues.

Or helping them to ride less.

But you're missing OP's original point - total capacity (i.e. the number of people riding each day) is not affected by FP. Anyone riding less means someone else is riding more.

Even though I think OP is wrong about waits, I think that point is correct. Why wouldn't it be correct?