FP+ doesn't make lines longer.

[Laketravis]

BREAKING NEWS! FP+ REDUCES EVENING CROWDS, REDUCING WAIT TIMES!! AMERICA REJOICES

Unless you count the three more guests they let in the park as I was leaving.

What FP+ has done is increased guest turnover in the parks, in turn increasing park capacity as measured by the number of guests. Those are Disney's words, not mine.

An increasing number of individuals seeking a limited number of experiences equals longer waits.

Therefore, (again), FP+ causes longer waits.

 

[OtherScott]

Only so many Mickey Bars you can eat in a day....

I keep trying to answer that one

 

[OtherScott]

Wis, I didn't say HOW MANY. Geez.....

"one undisputed effect is that people are now spending less time in the parks after using their 3 FP's" is just another way of saying, "one undisputed effect is that people are now spending less/more/same time in the parks after using their 3 FP's."

amirite?

 

[IamGroot]

Unless you count the three more guests they let in the park as I was leaving.

What FP+ has done is increased guest turnover in the parks, in turn increasing park capacity as measured by the number of guests. Those are Disney's words, not mine.

An increasing number of individuals seeking a limited number of experiences equals longer waits.

Therefore, (again), FP+ causes longer waits.

False. It doesn't matter to me whether you or someone else is in the line with me. There are limited ride spots and limited FP every day. So it doesn't make a difference if there is more "turnover" in the parks. That is just a strategy Disney is attempting to encourage more guests to spend fewer time in the parks per day while increasing the number of days at the resort. They are trying to smooth things as much as possible. But that still doesn't affect wait times.

 

[Angel Ariel]

"one undisputed effect is that people are now spending less time in the parks after using their 3 FP's" is just another way of saying, "one undisputed effect is that people are now spending less/more/same time in the parks after using their 3 FP's."

amirite?

Disney did come out and say that fp+ allowed them to get more people in the parks over the holidays last year because they had greater turnover (iow, more people leaving earlier so more could be let in) and they were very happy about that result. I don't really think it is disputable *that it happens*. Is it the case for everyone? Of course not. But it obviously happened enough during peak time last year for Disney to specifically mention it as a plus to fp+.

 

[over50visits]

I find the phrase "fast past lovers" equally amusing. Seriously, I wish we could just use phrases a little more sensible- proponents of , those who favor- those who don't like- something boring like that.

Pro FP+ vs Pro Choice

 

[wisblue]

Disney did come out and say that fp+ allowed them to get more people in the parks over the holidays last year because they had greater turnover (iow, more people leaving earlier so more could be let in) and they were very happy about that result. I don't really think it is disputable *that it happens*. Is it the case for everyone? Of course not. But it obviously happened enough during peak time last year for Disney to specifically mention it as a plus to fp+.

Keep in mind that the point was not just that people are leaving earlier, but that they are riding less.

But, just because some people leave earlier on the busiest days of the year doesn't mean that they are riding less than they would have otherwise. It might just mean that some people who used their FP+ reservations early rode the same number of things more quickly than they would have otherwise, and left the park when they were done with what they wanted to do. That made some room for other guests who had FP+ reservations later in the day. Those guests were then able to do as much or more in their time in the park than they would have otherwise because they entered at a time when all standby lines would have been long and FPs for major attractions would have been hard to come by.

Leaving earlier or spending less time in the parks does not necessarily mean riding less. We were at WDW between Christmas and New Year's last year and were able to ride more with FP+ than we were with paper FP without spending more time in the parks.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Keep in mind that the point was not just that people are leaving earlier, but that they are riding less.

But, just because some people leave earlier on the busiest days of the year doesn't mean that they are riding less than they would have otherwise. It might just mean that some people who used their FP+ reservations early rode the same number of things more quickly than they would have otherwise, and left the park when they were done with what they wanted to do. That made some room for other guests who had FP+ reservations later in the day. Those guests were then able to do as much or more in their time in the park than they would have otherwise because they entered at a time when all standby lines would have been long and FPs for major attractions would have been hard to come by.

Leaving earlier or spending less time in the parks does not necessarily mean riding less. We were at WDW between Christmas and New Year's last year and were able to ride more with FP+ than we were with paper FP without spending more time in the parks.

Actually, the person I quoted said nothing about riding less in the quote I was responding to. The person I was responding to was very specific about it being about "spending time" in the park, and that is to what I was responding.

I have intentionally not gotten into the argument about riding less or not because there is no way that question will ever be answered objectively. Disney doesn't release the average # of rides people get to experience, and everything here is anecdotal/subjective based on what one experienced before and what they expect now.

Guest turnover is not as subjective, and Disney has specifically made statements about FP+'s effect on it, which is why I specifically commented to the poster who was only talking about guest turnover, and did not respond to the riding less/same/more comments.

 

[wisblue]

To get back to the original point of the thread, I'm not disputing that standby lines for some rides may be longer than they used to be before FP+. It does seem logical that the addition of FP to an attraction might cause the standby line at that attraction to increase and that the migration to other attractions of guests who used to use paper FP to ride certain rides multiple times would increase the lines at those replacement attractions.

We all can have theories about whether and why FP+ has increased standby times and our own experiences with standby lines compared with past trips. But, many of those personal experiences may suffer from different crowd levels and other factors, not to mention less than perfect memories. So, I prefer to get my information from people who have the data to make real apples to apples comparisons and no incentive to tilt their conclusions.

In that regard, I find the following blog entry from the Touring Plans website to be very useful:

http://blog.touringplans.com/2014/06/23/fastpass-lowering-waits-disney-world-popular-rides/

I suspect that this article has been referenced on these boards before.

The basic conclusion drawn from this study is that, after taking into account overall crowd increases at WDW over the last two years, average standby wait times are lower at some attractions and higher at others. Maybe even more significantly, the amount by which average waits have increased at the attractions covered are all 10 minutes or less.

I think this last statement is important for those posters who have asked if things have really changed that much. Just reading some posts on this board, someone might think that a ride that typically had a wait time of 5-10 minutes before FP+ now has a normal wait time of 45 minutes or more. This study would say that that is not the case.

 

[johde]

First of all, as other have said, adding FP to an attraction either legacy or FP+ will increase the standby line. The trouble is that's not the question we should be asking. The question we should be asking is does the typical guest perceive their waits in line as being long or short amongst all of the rides. That involves combining their waits in both SB and FP lines. The trouble is, it doesn't need to be reality it only need to be perception.

For example, if I gave you the choice of 2 touring plans for riding 12 rides. In plan A, every ride had a 10 minute wait. In plan B 11 of the rides would have a 3 minute wait but the 12 ride would have an hour wait. Which plan would you choose. A large number of people would want to avoid the hour wait and pick A. When in reality Plan A has 120 minutes in line and plan B has 93 minutes in line. And, in term of perception, plan A may in fact feel better even though you spent more time in line.

IF FP+ has lead to greater utilization of the FP system over legacy FP in terms of numbers of people using it for whatever reason: Not needing to run all over the park, getting 3 at one time, prebooking, increased advertising, perceived need to prebook "headliners" etc. than more people are avoiding the some of their long wait. So on the whole people may be happier even though they are waiting in line longer for everything else.

For example, let's assume a busy day at EPCOT. Under FP+ TT and Soarin' are completely booked up by shortly after opening. Under legacy people would contend they could easily get multiple FP's for both. One could conclude (assuming no computer glitches) because of tiering, under FP+ more unique guests are getting to skip the SB on TT or Soarin' where previously they may have stood in line in the SB line for both because of perceived inconveniences in legacy FP. Also because of FP+, Nemo, Figment, and Spaceship Earth have a 10-15 minute wait where previously they were 3-5 minutes. But you've got a FP for one of those as well. So before it was 60+60+3+3+3=129 minutes in line. Now it's 60+10(FP return for headliner) + 15 + 15 +2 = 92 minutes in line. The person who previously didn't use FP is happy. Yes the FP expert who could pull both and not run themselves ragged is unhappy. They were waiting 10+10+3+3+3= 23 minutes. But the only reason they could do that is because other people thought legacy FP was impractical for their plans compared to FP+ (Soarin' and TT are being completely prebooked).

 

[cakebaker]

Pro FP+ vs Pro Choice

No, don't like that either- leaves the impression that those who like fp+ are somehow not pro choice- I am both.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Fastpasses, new or old system, are a ZERO SUM GAME. This means that by making your wait shorter on one attraction, you make it longer on every other attraction where you don't have a FP. Fastpasses simply create an artificial redistribution of guests throughout the park.

You're assuming every ride had a wait at all times and an equal enjoyment of all rides as well as an equal not enjoyment of waiting every minute in line. Those assumptions are required to make it a zero sum game. And none of those assumptions are true. The old fast pass system on average redistributed people off of peak rides at peak times onto rides and attractions with little or no wait to go back to the peak ride when it might have less of a wait or little or no wait. That was not a zero sum gain in the real world. The new system doesn't do it that way. Further, the new system has been shoe horned onto rides that are ill suited to it resulting in a net loss. Is it a big net loss? No. Most people are completely oblivious. But it is a net loss.

Is the wait for pirates longer? Yes. But in turn that means that other waits are now shorter because more people are riding pirates every day. We can't pretend that FP is broken because one attraction is a longer wait, when the overall waits for an entire day are the same as before.

Again you're assuming there is a wait on all rides at all times and each ride provides the same enjoyment. Again in error. Further, I don't know if things have changed yet but the wait on pirates was not due to more riders when I was there. The wait was because the system implemented caused pirates not to operate at capacity. Disney has completely lost site of the fact that there is no need for any kind of fast pass on pirates. It's a people eater. Just turn it on and let it go and let it eat all the people it can. Operating that ride at less than capacity thereby creating a line isn't a zero sum game. That's a loss.

So who loses? The only way you "lose" is if you were one of the people that used to get 5+ FP in a day before. You were the minority before, and had a good run. Now the system awards everyone the same opportunity (we don't need another on/off site debate here) for rides now. It's hard to complain that you lost an edge over others.

The old system afforded no advantages to anyone in particular. Any advantage gained was because the person gaining it did their homework and got off their lazy rear end, and got there early, NOT because the system gave them any unfair advantage.

But after all you said, waits ARE longer. why is this? The only thing that could be causing longer lines is increased attendence (which were ignoring), or people riding more rides. If FP+ is causing people to get on more attractions each day, that would increase the lines. However, getting people on more rides is the entire point of the entire system.

Actually the point of the system from Disney's point of view never was and still isn't to get more people on more rides. Any such gains (or losses) were simply a by product. It's to get more people in the stores. This is something the new system potentially can do far better than the old.

So either lines (overall for an entire day in the park) are the same as before, or people are riding more rides. It's pretty silly to complain that you're getting on more attractions in a day, so let's just let this whole debate/complaint end.

Faulty conclusions based upon erroneous assumptions rarely end debates. Unless of course it's a timed debate.

*for the haters: the FP+ Only tests they have done are stupid. I don't agree with them. But those tests are a failure of management, not the FP+ system.

No system is independent of its implementation or operation. One cannot very well claim the Titanic was unsinkable even though it sank because its captain ran it into an iceberg.

 

[cakebaker]

Any advantage gained was because the person gaining it did their homework and got off their lazy rear end, and got there early, NOT because the system gave them any unfair advantage.

Are we back to those who like fp+ are lazy? Just wondering, it's entirely possible you didn't mean it to be taken that way.

At any rate, those who don't choose to get to the parks at rope drop at not lazy-

 

[OtherScott]

Disney did come out and say that fp+ allowed them to get more people in the parks over the holidays last year because they had greater turnover (iow, more people leaving earlier so more could be let in) and they were very happy about that result. I don't really think it is disputable *that it happens*. Is it the case for everyone? Of course not. But it obviously happened enough during peak time last year for Disney to specifically mention it as a plus to fp+.

I know. I was merely amused that when PP was called out for saying that "people are now spending less time in the park," he feigned offense that his statement wasn't as broad as it appeared. "I didn't say how many..."

 

[OtherScott]

The old system afforded no advantages to anyone in particular. Any advantage gained was because the person gaining it did their homework and got off their lazy rear end, and got there early, didn't have any typical kid issues, had flexible dietary needs, no people in party with mobility issues, and gained experience from prior visits that led to greater appreciation of location and proximity attractions and time allotments necessary for maximum efficiency, NOT because the system that was used by less than 1/2 the guests and would have crashed if it was used by anything approaching current level gave them any unfair advantage.

fixed

 

[cakebaker]

fixed

You should've fixed the lazy part.

 

[going/again]

I addressed this in my OP. Then people are riding more rides. If you are getting to ride more rides in a day, you are winning. Why is this confusing?

How is it winning when you are only riding something because what you really wanted was gone 60 days ago.

 

[IamGroot]

How is it winning when you are only riding something because what you really wanted was gone 60 days ago.

You aren't. You just wait the 45-50 min for something you really want, and use your FPs to dramatically reduce your waits on other rides.

Plus, as we've seen in other threads, almost all of the top attractions are usually available a week out. This obviously does not apply to A&E, 7DMT, parades, and fireworks. But everything else is still open.

 

[going/again]

We were at WDW between Christmas and New Year's last year and were able to ride more with FP+ than we were with paper FP without spending more time in the parks.

we were there 24/12 till 11/1 and rode less rides than in our previous 13 visits at same time, so the complete opposite for us.

 

[going/again]

You aren't. You just wait the 45-50 min for something you really want, and use your FPs to dramatically reduce your waits on other rides.

Plus, as we've seen in other threads, almost all of the top attractions are usually available a week out. This obviously does not apply to A&E, 7DMT, parades, and fireworks. But everything else is still open.

Your still making the assumption that you can get the FP you want which as many people have posted is not the case, I plan on going on a vacation, not looking from 60 days out till a week before on the of chance something comes available.


you stated your winning in the post I replied to, then your first two words in your reply are you aren't so are we winning or not you seem confused