FP+ doesn't make lines longer.

[IamGroot]

First, common sense. After FP+ many attractions now usually have long waits they rarely did before. If you assume attendance hasn't increased, etc etc, the only difference is FP+. OK?

If attendence hasn't changed, and you have a fixed number of rides, how is it possible for overall waits to have increased?

To over simplify, if you have 10 rides, and 10,000 people, how would any fastpass system affect the wait times for those guests for an entire day?

They won't, unless the argunent is that people are riding more rides now, which is a benefit, not a problem.

 

[Suvadoo]

We are here now and I have to say FP has become a complete non issue for us, lines have not been terrible, 15-20 for most rides except of course the mine train which is crazy all day.

For our touring style we just don't let it bother us, we go on what is short and work in the rest later. We rode the mine train at the end of the Halloween party on tues and it was about 25 min wait.

We rode Soarin last night during EMH and it was a 10 min wait.

We also rode Everest back to back and my DS requested front row and we were done in less then 45 min .
My point to all of this is it can still be done without FP, just don't stress it and enjoy.

I realize some will not agree and that's ok.

I'm glad you're have a great time, but I also think you are able to do all of these things because you are at WDW during a slower time. I think the attraction wait times will substantially increase during busier times and FP+ will make a huge difference in touring.

 

[surferdave]

If attendence hasn't changed, and you have a fixed number of rides, how is it possible for overall waits to have increased?

To over simplify, if you have 10 rides, and 10,000 people, how would any fastpass system affect the wait times for those guests for an entire day?

I answered your question.

 

[IamGroot]

Unfortunately, OP, the conditions you lay out in your first paragraph don't hold. From looking at numbers attendance at all the parks is higher now than even 2 years ago. And obviously you cannot stuff more people in the parks on the days the parks have shut down early because they are at capacity, so the increases will be coming on "quieter" days. So increased attendance has come at the same time as the full rollout of FP+, and lines have become longer. FP+ is going to take the blame since that is the change which is visible to us.

I also understand the frustration from people who feel they are losing their ability to just come to WDW with minimal planning and just make up their minds about what to do as they go. It is a vacation after all. But with increased attendance those days would be gone anyway. With more people wanting to take in the same number of attractions, there needs to be a way to get them organized. It is better that the conflict between people who really want to do an attraction can be settled at their computers before they come, rather than in a crowded park on a hot day with kids watching. FP+ may not be perfectly designed, and it may not be perfectly functional. But it is no more arbitrary than saying that the fastest runners at rope drop get the best times.

Duh. The whole point is that FP doesn't cause longer lines for an overall day in the park. If attendence is going up, lines will be longer by default. You can't blame FP for that.

In fact, FP+ is, among other things, a pro-active step by Disney to maximize rides for people as the parks do get more crowded.

 

[IamGroot]

I answered your question.

Provide an example instead of using throwaway jargon.

 

[RMulieri]

I can only speak for myself, but I don't even care if I get less FPs now, that is not the real issue for me. I was never a super-power-user or whatever. If they had decided to promote the old paper FP which led to higher utilization and less FPs for me, I would have been fine with that.

The real issue for me is that each day is not a clean slate anymore. Before, no matter what happened, you could re-plan each day the night before, come up with a new strategy and go for it. This was great especially if you had a bad night's sleep, kids sick, weather, etc. That is what I miss most of all.

So I guess for me, I hate the feeling of being "locked in." It's what I love about visiting Universal onsite now, even though I don't enjoy their parks as much as the Disney parks...I love the feeling of being able to wake up and go, plan as much as you want or as little as you want. And you used to be able to do that at WDW. Now you can't.

Well said

 

[surferdave]

Provide an example instead of using throwaway jargon.

I gave an example. They were having so much difficulty merging the lines for PotC that boats were empty in the ride. A cast member backed up my explanation with his own experience of trying to merge the lines, and his frustrations with fellow CMs causing the inefficiencies further upstream than his station leading to his ride losing capacity.

I'm not claiming that it's a widespread problem, or that the benefits might not outweigh the gains (I don't believe they do but that doesn't matter), or that this ruins vacations. I'm demonstrating that the system can and has increased overall line times.

I'm not the one using throwaway jargon, Mr. Zero Sum Game. You keep backing up your theory with simple math, like you're applying the Ideal Gas Law to real world particle behavior. You provide an example.

 

[IamGroot]

For the record, I also agree with the non-planners. I like spontaneity. The point of this thread is purely wait times.

 

[IamGroot]

I gave an example. They were having so much difficulty merging the lines for PotC that boats were empty in the ride. A cast member backed up my explanation with his own experience of trying to merge the lines, and his frustrations with fellow CMs causing the inefficiencies further upstream than his station leading to his ride losing capacity.

I'm not claiming that it's a widespread problem, or that the benefits might not outweigh the gains (I don't believe they do but that doesn't matter), or that this ruins vacations. I'm demonstrating that the system can and has increased overall line times.

I'm not the one using throwaway jargon, Mr. Zero Sum Game. You keep backing up your theory with simple math, like you're applying the Ideal Gas Law to real world particle behavior. You provide an example.

You gave an example of a CM doing a poor job, not a fundamental failure of FP+

 

[surferdave]

You gave an example of a CM doing a poor job, not a fundamental failure of FP+

You never said anything about a fundamental failure, you claimed the system doesn't make lines longer and I demonstrated that it has. Even the best CM job doesn't eliminate the inefficiencies, it just mitigates them.

 

[IamGroot]

You never said anything about a fundamental failure, you claimed the system doesn't make lines longer and I demonstrated that it has. Even the best CM job doesn't eliminate the inefficiencies, it just mitigates them.

Regardless though, if you have two lines feeding the boats you will have this issue. Whether it's 2 SB lines or 1 SB 1 FP it's the same problem. We have all seen rides operate at less than full capacity, even years ago. This specific instance doesn't justify a claim of "FP makes waits longer"

 

[AndreaA]

If attendence hasn't changed, and you have a fixed number of rides, how is it possible for overall waits to have increased?

To over simplify, if you have 10 rides, and 10,000 people, how would any fastpass system affect the wait times for those guests for an entire day?

They won't, unless the argunent is that people are riding more rides now, which is a benefit, not a problem.

Have you even looked at comparisons of pre FP+ wait times vs post? In every chart I have seen, the INCREASE in wait at the non-E attractions is much greater than the DECREASE in wait at the E attractions. And there are a lot more non-E attractions! Therefore your argument does not fly. Overall wait times have increased. Period.

Maybe before, people would get in line for E attractions multiple times and never even bother with non-E attractions. Maybe people used to spend more time going from one E attraction to another across the park and skipped the rides in between. Now you can argue that it's a good thing that people are riding more non-E rides (even though it's possible those people aren't even really enjoying them but are doing so out of a sense of obligation since the have a FP + for it) but that doesn't change the experiences of guests overall, and the reality is that people are waiting in line longer. This is particularly true for families with small children (arguably a majority) who don't even ride the E rides. Whatever the reason the plain FACT is that wait times have gone UP.

 

[OtherScott]

Regardless though, if you have two lines feeding the boats you will have this issue. Whether it's 2 SB lines or 1 SB 1 FP it's the same problem. We have all seen rides operate at less than full capacity, even years ago. This specific instance doesn't justify a claim of "FP makes waits longer"

Used to be true because you could load both at same rate. What CM described is a physical process (electronic scanning replacing paper collection) that slowed load rate of FP line.

 

[jerivera]

There it is. My entire objection to the entire system. On my many, many visits to Disney Disney World, I had an overall plan for the vacation, but it was modified each day to accommodate variables listed above. Back at the hotel room in the evening, plans for the next day were altered, tweeked, and even completely abandoned with new ideas on what to do in the parks.

Wait... so your entire vacation plan consisted on which FPs you could get for that day??? Seriously???

Because bottom line, that's what this is all about. FPs. Not park visit, not riding rides, etc. Just the FP. And from that statement, it sounds like you wouldn't go to a park unless FPs were available, which we all know weren't for many popular rides unless you got there early. So if you got there and the Soaring FPs were gone, day ruined, plan failure, go back to hotel to re-plan?

Weird way of planning your vacation....

 

[IamGroot]

Have you even looked at comparisons of pre FP+ wait times vs post? In every chart I have seen, the INCREASE in wait at the non-E attractions is much greater than the DECREASE in wait at the E attractions. And there are a lot more non-E attractions! Therefore your argument does not fly. Overall wait times have increased. Period.

Maybe before, people would get in line for E attractions multiple times and never even bother with non-E attractions. Maybe people used to spend more time going from one E attraction to another across the park and skipped the rides in between. Now you can argue that it's a good thing that people are riding more non-E rides (even though it's possible those people aren't even really enjoying them but are doing so out of a sense of obligation since the have a FP + for it) but that doesn't change the experiences of guests overall, and the reality is that people are waiting in line longer. This is particularly true for families with small children (arguably a majority) who don't even ride the E rides. Whatever the reason the plain FACT is that wait times have gone UP.

I addressed this in my OP. Then people are riding more rides. If you are getting to ride more rides in a day, you are winning. Why is this confusing?

 

[ghtx]

Fastpasses, new or old system, are a ZERO SUM GAME. This means that by making your wait shorter on one attraction, you make it longer on every other attraction where you don't have a FP. Fastpasses simply create an artificial redistribution of guests throughout the park.

But you forgot that some people don't believe in math.

So either lines (overall for an entire day in the park) are the same as before, or people are riding more rides. It's pretty silly to complain that you're getting on more attractions in a day, so let's just let this whole debate/complaint end.

LOL good luck with that

 

[Suvadoo]

I addressed this in my OP. Then people are riding more rides. If you are getting to ride more rides in a day, you are winning. Why is this confusing?

Speaking for myself, I am not riding more rides. I am spending more time in lines and then leaving the parks early because I don't want to wait in more lines. Perhaps a survey should be posted asking if people are experiencing more rides with FP+, less rides with FP+, or the same amount of rides with FP+.

 

[ghtx]

I addressed this in my OP. Then people are riding more rides. If you are getting to ride more rides in a day, you are winning. Why is this confusing?

See my earlier post about people not believing in math.

 

[wisblue]

Have you even looked at comparisons of pre FP+ wait times vs post? In every chart I have seen, the INCREASE in wait at the non-E attractions is much greater than the DECREASE in wait at the E attractions. And there are a lot more non-E attractions! Therefore your argument does not fly. Overall wait times have increased. Period.

.

Could you provide information on what specific charts you have looked at?

 

[OtherScott]

I addressed this in my OP. Then people are riding more rides. If you are getting to ride more rides in a day, you are winning. Why is this confusing?

You said 2 things in OP

1) FP+ doesn't make lines longer
2) Lines are longer (because you get to ride more stuff)

Except for factoring in greater efficiency and inefficiency, your zero sum math only holds if the same number of guests wait in the same number of lines they did before.