Fort Worth woman shot in her own home by police

[luvsJack]

A judge minimized the implications of running a stop sign -- repeatedly?

The officer had stopped him several times. Like an abundance of times. He didn't run a stop sign repeatedly. He didn't do anything repeatedly except get pulled over. This officer may have gotten in trouble previously for harassment, I am not sure. But she was quick to realize that he had stopped ds several times and she told him to knock it off.

The ticket was for "not coming to a complete stop" and "speeding" except the officer put that he was going like 40 miles over the speed limit. It would have been physically impossible for him to be going that fast and go anywhere near that stop sign. The stop sign is one road "t-ing" into the road he was pulled over on. He pulled him over as soon as he made the turn. No time to get up to that speed. That is what made her question the officer and the ticket. Her remark about running a stop sign I believe was sarcasm to the officer not to be take literally.

 

[luvsJack]

For some reason you elected to quote me when you brought the case citation into the discussion. I fail to see how the citation is at all germane to the discussion at hand, let alone anything I in particular have said?

The holding in Warren v. District of Columbia that says that LE isn't responsible for protecting individuals does not open a door or even crack a window for the idea that LE cannot, will not and should not be held responsible for negligently and recklessly endangering individuals as the source and architect of the danger, which is what happened in Fort Worth.

As for your desire not to argue, you may be unaware that it's rude to open a dialogue with Hello!, as it implies aggression and deep disrespect for the person you're addressing.

Hello is a greeting. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[LSUmiss]

Exactly! Look, straight up, I ended up married to a big-time POS racist and misogynist and didn't even know he (and some of his family members) was racist until after I married him. Awful. These types, typically narcissists, hide this stuff and pretend to be something they are not to win admiration/affection from others ... until they can't anymore. Ironically, someone here said Long Islanders were racist, that's where he was from! hahaha. But I don't think all Long Islanders are racist. (Happily divorced now!)

I think being a white person in a diverse city, I see if more b/c other white ppl think I think like them & lower their voice & make a racists remark. Just the other day a coworker I barely know told me something her 90 yr old dad always says. It was highly inappropriate & racist & it contained the N word. The point she was making was how inappropriate her dad is, but she also thought it was funny that he says this. I’m not sure if she’s actually racist, but it made me see her in a different light. I’m pretty sure she would have never disclosed this to a black colleague.

 

[cabanafrau]

Hello is a greeting. Nothing more, nothing less.

If it's a greeting, would it not be expected that it would appear more than once as the person addresses different people? Why the need for the exclamation point, what was that supposed to convey?
You've genuinely never heard Hello! used as a snarky mode to address someone? It is a known occurrence in the north. Maybe it's helpful for those who are unaware to understand that it can be viewed as a disrespectful manner of address.

 

[LSUmiss]

I live in NJ as well and have traveled to the south numerous times and have never seen what you are describing. Can you give examples of public display that are racist? Maybe I am not paying attention but have never once seen anything you describe. The only thing we find strange is that they let you smoke cigarettes inside fast food chains which is not allowed here up north.

Off topic but you smoke in any of those places here.

 

[OhMickeyUrSoFine]

If it's a greeting, would it not be expected that it would appear more than once as the person addresses different people? Why the need for the exclamation point, what was that supposed to convey?
You've genuinely never heard Hello! used as a snarky mode to address someone? It is a known occurrence in the north. Maybe it's helpful for those who are unaware to understand that it can be viewed as a disrespectful manner of address.

Please, stop! I was no way trying to be rude. I was actually happy you responded and glad you expanded on what I mean (more than I did). My goodness. That was not my intention at all. Please READ what I said. Personally, I've never heard anyone say, "Hello!" in a rude manner directed to me. "Hello ... Mcfly!??" or "HELLO?" in all caps with question mark, maybe? On the other hand ... Yes. As the person who typed it - it was, in fact, that I was saying "Hi!" because you replied and I was actually happy about it. That is the matter of the fact.

 

[OhMickeyUrSoFine]

I think being a white person in a diverse city, I see if more b/c other white ppl think I think like them & lower their voice & make a racists remark. Just the other day a coworker I barely know told me something her 90 yr old dad always says. It was highly inappropriate & racist & it contained the N word. The point she was making was how inappropriate her dad is, but she also thought it was funny that he says this. I’m not sure if she’s actually racist, but it made me see her in a different light. I’m pretty sure she would have never disclosed this to a black colleague.

Hmm ... I understand what you are saying. Sometimes people say these things in order to gauge whether or not the other is okay with hearing that N word or not. Or she's just talking and quoting him directly .... You just don't know. If that happened to me, I'd just explain I don't personally use that term and see how they take that response. It is weird though she thought it was funny. :/

 

[pahoben]

To Cabanafrau

Now you know and sorry for the delay. I will tell you something else about Chad-the Chadians have a reputation as very tough people. If they feel they have been treated wrongly they have no sense of humor and will seek redress of their grievance beyond typical bounds in the West.

 

[Colleen27]

In a city about an hour north of me, there is a area that is described that way. It is a black neighborhood.

If 911 is called for an ambulance to that neighborhood, when the ambulance gets there they cannot go in until the police get there. It’s not racism. It’s the fact that paramedics have been shot at while trying to get to an injured or sick person. Pizza Hut and Dominos will not deliver there after dark because too many of their drivers have been robbed.

These companies have these policies to protect their employees, both white and black, from what can be a dangerous situation. It’s not fair to say that is racism.

Some neighborhoods are just that dangerous.

I suppose some are, and in America, they're almost always majority-black neighborhoods (though I think some of the restrictions you're describing are unusually extreme; I worked for years in what was and still is the highest-crime zip code in Detroit and it wasn't like that there). But you're talking about private businesses setting restrictions so that untrained, unarmed, and in the case of paramedics, attractive targets because of the drugs they have (or that people think they have) don't end up on the wrong side of crime statistics. Law enforcement should be held to a higher standard than civilians and shouldn't be deciding that they're walking into "shoot to kill" situations based on an address before even arriving on scene.

I think there's this idea in the way we talk about racism in America that if you're not throwing around the n-word, burning crosses and intentionally targeting minorities for violence or mistreatment, you're not racist. We're not very good at talking about more subtle forms of racism, like the fact that those very poor, very high crime black neighborhoods get a ton of news coverage that ends up shaping how we view all majority-minority neighborhoods, or the way constant attention being paid to the failings of schools in minority communities and the achievement gap create a perceptual bias against people with ethnic names even before we know where they were raised or educated. We seem to have a very hard time with the idea that you don't have to consciously dislike minorities to display some racist tendencies; a lot of implicit racism is just "reality is reality", as @kandb put it, writ large.

 

[pahoben]

I suppose some are, and in America, they're almost always majority-black neighborhoods (though I think some of the restrictions you're describing are unusually extreme; I worked for years in what was and still is the highest-crime zip code in Detroit and it wasn't like that there). But you're talking about private businesses setting restrictions so that untrained, unarmed, and in the case of paramedics, attractive targets because of the drugs they have (or that people think they have) don't end up on the wrong side of crime statistics. Law enforcement should be held to a higher standard than civilians and shouldn't be deciding that they're walking into "shoot to kill" situations based on an address before even arriving on scene.

I think there's this idea in the way we talk about racism in America that if you're not throwing around the n-word, burning crosses and intentionally targeting minorities for violence or mistreatment, you're not racist. We're not very good at talking about more subtle forms of racism, like the fact that those very poor, very high crime black neighborhoods get a ton of news coverage that ends up shaping how we view all majority-minority neighborhoods, or the way constant attention being paid to the failings of schools in minority communities and the achievement gap create a perceptual bias against people with ethnic names even before we know where they were raised or educated. We seem to have a very hard time with the idea that you don't have to consciously dislike minorities to display some racist tendencies; a lot of implicit racism is just "reality is reality", as @kandb put it, writ large.

When i got my drivers license at 16 a number of years ago i delivered pizzas for a couple years and was robbed three times in high crime areas. Really not at all enjoyable

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Sigh. No it’s not. You can choose to be a cop can’t choose your race. I only know about 4 cops & have heard these 4 ppl say some egregiously racists things like using the N word. I don’t need to know them well to know they’re racists. 3 are DH’s extended family whom we never choose to associate with & 1 is a friend’s dad. The friend is not like this & is often appalled by his dad’s behavior. I have also seen cops be fired here on more than one occasion for posting very racists things on social media. It’s actually pretty well known that NOPD has a culture of racism & corruption. I admitted it’s not a large sampling of ppl, but it does color my view b/c at least 2 of the 4 are high ranking officers. I am admitting that I have a bias something we all have for something whether you recognize it or not. You appear to have a bias for the cops based on your personal experiences. It’s the same thing.

ETA: B/c of my experience, I tend to think race is possibly or sometimes probably a factor. B/c you have know the best cops in the world & never meant any racists in the south , you believe it’s not likely a factor. Neither of us knows a proper sampling of ppl to base our opinions on any fact. Our views are both simply colored by our experiences.

I have to say here, that one of the most surprising things to me on this thread are your posts about police officers. You are a psychologist, right? And generally you help explain things from a psychological standpoint on threads like this. I am just surprised to not have seen this from you here, and I'm not sure why.

Police have a tough life. Yes, they chose it, but they also put their lives on the line for us day in and day out, often to their detriment, and deal regularly with the worst and most difficult aspects of our society. With their chosen careers comes an abundance of psychological, emotional and physiological stress. About 150 officers nationwide commit suicide each year when they can't hack life anymore. There have been 10 this year with the NYPD alone. There are so many reasons why. Personally, I think we have to have some compassion for them, too, and the work they do.

There is a lot of work to be done from a support and education standpoint with police so that maybe some of this stress can be reduced (and subsequently, there will be fewer suicides and abuse of power cases). Public support is a big part of it. Yes, they have to rise to the occasion, too. We all do. Right now things are not good for them. Soon we will have less there to help us when we need them, as fewer want to deal with all the difficulties that come along with being a police officer. Forces that used to have long waiting lists are now offering to help with rent and such just to get people to apply. Not sure how that will pan out if we're begging people to do the job... wouldn't it be better to have those who want to do it go into the line of work, instead?

A good read to help understand some of the stressors that police officers face on the job:

https://adaa.org/sites/default/files/Henderson_100.pdf

 

[LSUmiss]

I have to say here, that one of the most surprising things to me on this thread are your posts about police officers. You are a psychologist, right? And generally you help explain things from a psychological standpoint on threads like this. I am just surprised to not have seen this from you here, and I'm not sure why.

Police have a tough life. Yes, they chose it, but they also put their lives on the line for us day in and day out, often to their detriment, and deal regularly with the worst and most difficult aspects of our society. With their chosen careers comes an abundance of psychological, emotional and physiological stress. About 150 officers nationwide commit suicide each year when they can't hack life anymore. There have been 10 this year with the NYPD alone. There are so many reasons why. Personally, I think we have to have some compassion for them, too, and the work they do.

There is a lot of work to be done from a support and education standpoint with police so that maybe some of this stress can be reduced (and subsequently, there will be fewer suicides and abuse of power cases). Public support is a big part of it. Yes, they have to rise to the occasion, too. We all do. Right now things are not good for them. Soon we will have less there to help us when we need them, as fewer want to deal with all the difficulties that come along with being a police officer. Forces that used to have long waiting lists are now offering to help with rent and such just to get people to apply. Not sure how that will pan out if we're begging people to do the job... wouldn't it be better to have those who want to do it go into the line of work, instead?

A good read to help understand some of the stressors that police officers face on the job:

https://adaa.org/sites/default/files/Henderson_100.pdf

No I am a social worker which I think actually makes my opinion less surprising .

 

[Pea-n-Me]

No I am a social worker which I think actually makes my opinion less surprising .

Ah. Yes, that explains it!

 

[PlainJane]

If it's a greeting, would it not be expected that it would appear more than once as the person addresses different people? Why the need for the exclamation point, what was that supposed to convey?
You've genuinely never heard Hello! used as a snarky mode to address someone? It is a known occurrence in the north. Maybe it's helpful for those who are unaware to understand that it can be viewed as a disrespectful manner of address.

My husband is from New England and says “hello” all the time. “Hello there!” “Hello, sir!” “Well, hello there.” It’s normally said in a somewhat silly, jovial voice.

I’ve only heard someone say “hello” in an annoyed tone if they picked up the phone and they weren’t getting a response from the other end.

Now that I think of it, my MIL has said it in a sarcastic tone, but it’s never as a greeting. She’s normally talking about someone who wasn’t paying attention. She’s not saying it to someone, but in the context of a story.

 

[PlainJane]

I guess I had hoped better for other parts of the country b/c I know I have sure seen my share of racism down here.

Maybe the south is, and maybe it isn't, but it sure as heck is more blatant about it. Our family (we live in NJ) has traveled many places in the US and abroad, and we were absolutely shocked by the racism on public display in the south. Even shops used racial stereotypes in advertising, and we saw more than one store with an offensive name. Anyone who claims that racism is a rare exception in the south, or anywhere, to be honest, either has their head buried in the sand or is so deeply entrenched as a racist themselves that they just don't see it.

The most blatantly racist people I’ve ever met were in the North East region, generally it was older men saying completely inappropriate things. I’ve never lived in the Deep South, so I can’t speak to that. Moving from VA to MA was a very weird experience. You could go in a grocery store and only see white people, it was very bizarre moving there from somewhere that has a lot of racial diversity. I heard jokes about the south being racist on the regular and I would inwardly roll my eyes because there was barely anyone in the area to be racist against, unless you were going really old school and starting a feud between Irish Catholics vs. French Catholics. The most ridiculous, and serious, comment I ever heard was that we don’t celebrate MLK day in the south.

Where I’m from in VA it’s a lot more common to see racial insensitivity, the person genuinely means no harm and is acting from ignorance, vs. blatant, hateful racism (which I did see in the North East, it’s not very common where I’m from). Of course both are damaging, but I can at least normally have a respectful conversation with someone acting out of ignorance about why their behavior is hurtful.

Getting into something like racial bias is much harder, simply because I can’t see what’s in a person’s head. Even if we’re talking about studies that found it was more likely to see bias for certain groups, how are you going to prove it for that individual person?

Obviously, this situation was handled terribly. Why on earth would you sneak around someone’s house? And in Texas of all places. I also want to know why two officers thought that was the appropriate way to handle a welfare check. Only one of them made the final fatal decision, but both made a very poor initial decision that led to someone dying. Of course a gun owner would grab their gun if they heard someone outside their house. And, while I know she was holding a firearm, he could have easily shot someone that was just holding a flashlight or a cell phone.

 

[luvsJack]

I suppose some are, and in America, they're almost always majority-black neighborhoods (though I think some of the restrictions you're describing are unusually extreme; I worked for years in what was and still is the highest-crime zip code in Detroit and it wasn't like that there). But you're talking about private businesses setting restrictions so that untrained, unarmed, and in the case of paramedics, attractive targets because of the drugs they have (or that people think they have) don't end up on the wrong side of crime statistics. Law enforcement should be held to a higher standard than civilians and shouldn't be deciding that they're walking into "shoot to kill" situations based on an address before even arriving on scene.

I think there's this idea in the way we talk about racism in America that if you're not throwing around the n-word, burning crosses and intentionally targeting minorities for violence or mistreatment, you're not racist. We're not very good at talking about more subtle forms of racism, like the fact that those very poor, very high crime black neighborhoods get a ton of news coverage that ends up shaping how we view all majority-minority neighborhoods, or the way constant attention being paid to the failings of schools in minority communities and the achievement gap create a perceptual bias against people with ethnic names even before we know where they were raised or educated. We seem to have a very hard time with the idea that you don't have to consciously dislike minorities to display some racist tendencies; a lot of implicit racism is just "reality is reality", as @kandb put it, writ large.

I do agree that police should be held to a high standard. I also believe that they are human beings. They do have families they live and just want to go home to those families safely. Should they go into a dangerous area with guns a blazing? Of course not. But they do have to go with a certain awareness of the danger. (None of this is said to defend the officer in the situation in the op).

The neighborhood I am talking about is designed in such a way that there is one way in and one way out. It’s just not a drive on through situation. Paramedics have been shot at for trying to get to a sick or injured person and as such the requirement of having the police (if they have ever had to literally wait, I don’t think so. Police patrol that area regularly and are usually close by). Pretty sure the deliveries came about from them being robbed.

Racism is so much more than the extremes. But that doesn’t mean it’s a part of every incident either simply because the individuals are two different races. And sometimes reality is just reality.

One of our neighboring community colleges recently had to put almost half of one of their programs out of school. They had drugs on campus and were caught. Their instructor reported to campus police. From what I was told, about 2/3 of those students were black. And racism has been the accusation. But the reality is, they were breaking the law and the college policies. They were students that just happen to be black, not the other way around.

Neighborhoods are just that neighborhoods. Some are primarily black, some primarily white. Some are dangerous areas, some are not. But they are neighborhoods that happen to be primarily one race and is dangerous. Not dangerous because they are primarily black or white. But saying a neighborhood is dangerous is not racist. It’s the reality of that neighborhood.

School situations are the fault of the state or county or district. If one school is failing, it’s because the leaders of that school have failed it not because of the race of the students. Nor should they or their graduates be held accountable for that failing. And judgement on someone because one “assumes” they attended or may have attended a failing school is wrong but otoh, it’s understandable that an employer would be concerned about the education a prospective employee received. Again the failing is with the administration of the failing schools and the media needs to bring attention to it so that perhaps change will come and these higher ups will be held accountable. If some interviewer gives less consideration to someone because their name may imply to that person that the interviewee attended a failing school then yes, that is on that one person and is racist. But without the attention the media gives these schools, change will never come.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I also want to know why two officers thought that was the appropriate way to handle a welfare check.

It's already been said that they were not there on a welfare check. The call came to them as an Open Structure call (in which procedures were still not followed to a T even with that being the way it was given to them).

 

[Moliphino]

The most blatantly racist people I’ve ever met were in the North East region, generally it was older men saying completely inappropriate things. I’ve never lived in the Deep South, so I can’t speak to that. Moving from VA to MA was a very weird experience. You could go in a grocery store and only see white people, it was very bizarre moving there from somewhere that has a lot of racial diversity. I heard jokes about the south being racist on the regular and I would inwardly roll my eyes because there was barely anyone in the area to be racist against, unless you were going really old school and starting a feud between Irish Catholics vs. French Catholics. The most ridiculous, and serious, comment I ever heard was that we don’t celebrate MLK day in the south.

Yeah, my town in MA is like 96% white as of the last census. Cities are more diverse, but the small towns certainly aren't. I went the opposite way and went to Atlanta for college.

 

[PlainJane]

It's already been said that they were not there on a welfare check. The call came to them as an Open Structure call (in which procedures were still not followed to a T even with that being the way it was given to them).

Then how they’re training dispatchers needs to be evaluated too. Why wouldn’t they have factored in the obvious fact that the screen door was closed and locked and not visibly tampered with? Why wouldn’t they have factored in the information that the residents cars were present, so there isn’t just a suspected burglar to look for but also residents? Residents that could be theoretically holding a gun if they’re interacting with a burglar (since most law abiding citizens have them for that reason). And of course the obvious, you need to announce you’re police before you start shouting orders at people, beyond that no time was given for the order that was made

 

[PlainJane]

Yeah, my town in MA is like 96% white as of the last census. Cities are more diverse, but the small towns certainly aren't. I went the opposite way and went to Atlanta for college.

I lived in a medium sized city, large metro areas definitely had more diversity, while the smaller areas just seemed claim it. I guess, if someone has never lived somewhere that is racially diverse they might not even realize it until visiting/moving somewhere else.

It’s been very interesting for my husband moving to VA. He admits after living here, at least in this area, that he was kind of brainwashed and what he was told about the south in his NE upbringing doesn’t match reality.