For what reasons could you be requested to go through the full body scanners?

[CPT Tripss]

But until there is case law making the screenings illegal, doesn't that make them legal? I did include a 'so far' in my post.


Ah, but a "grope" to one is not a "grope" to another. Or, more likely, the "gropes" are the same, but the REASON for the "grope" is in question. If a doctor preformed the identical "pat down"/"grope" as part of an exam would anyone be crying "illegal"? I'm guessing not, because it's necessary for the doctor to do the job entrusted to them. Now, are the "enhanced pat downs/gropes" necessary for TSA to do their jobs? I don't know. I error on the side of more security is better than less.

As I pointed out in another post (in this thread or another one), no screening system/device is 100% effective (didn't we have metal detectors before 9/11?). So now you need to use a combination of procedures to get as close to 100% as you can, BUT balance that with the cost/time constraints.

If there is no case law, let me say (as a non-lawyer) "it's not illegal."

Does your doc force you to have a prostate/pelvic exam in order to leave the office? Mine doesn't . . . and he even allows me to stay on as a patient.

As far as erring on the side of more security, why do ignore privacy rights but factor in your time? Not that I buy that TSA's recent actions improve real security.

 

[ccgirl]

But until there is case law making the screenings illegal, doesn't that make them legal? I did include a 'so far' in my post.


Ah, but a "grope" to one is not a "grope" to another. Or, more likely, the "gropes" are the same, but the REASON for the "grope" is in question. If a doctor preformed the identical "pat down"/"grope" as part of an exam would anyone be crying "illegal"? I'm guessing not, because it's necessary for the doctor to do the job entrusted to them. Now, are the "enhanced pat downs/gropes" necessary for TSA to do their jobs? I don't know. I error on the side of more security is better than less.

As I pointed out in another post (in this thread or another one), no screening system/device is 100% effective (didn't we have metal detectors before 9/11?). So now you need to use a combination of procedures to get as close to 100% as you can, BUT balance that with the cost/time constraints.

Very good post.

That is how I feel. Opinions are subjective. What one may find groping I may not. It is the TSA's job to pat down. They are not doing it just to get their groove on.

 

[jodifla]

Very good post.

That is how I feel. Opinions are subjective. What one may find groping I may not. It is the TSA's job to pat down. They are not doing it just to get their groove on.

That's being pretty generous. There are a lot of TSA employees. I'd bet SOME are definitely doing it for some sort of rush....most likely a power trip.

Lift breasts, grabbing testicles is groping, pure and simple.

 

[sam_gordon]

That's being pretty generous. There are a lot of TSA employees. I'd bet SOME are definitely doing it for some sort of rush....most likely a power trip.

That doesn't make sense though. ASSUMING (correct me if I'm wrong) the TSA has a "procedure" of how the patdowns should be done, how is it a power trip? From what I understand, barring a WTMD (or other) alarm going off, TSA agents aren't choosing WHO gets the enhanced pat down... that it's the choice of the traveler. So how is it a power trip? The traveler says "I agree to the patdown", TSA procedures say "this is how the patdown should be done".

Lift breasts, grabbing testicles is groping, pure and simple.

So your doctor "gropes" you during exams. Got it. Tip: You might want to avoid going to the doctor if you don't want to be groped.

 

[ccgirl]

That's being pretty generous. There are a lot of TSA employees. I'd bet SOME are definitely doing it for some sort of rush....most likely a power trip.

Lift breasts, grabbing testicles is groping, pure and simple.

SOME police are the same. SOME doctors are the same. SOME EMT's are the same. We could go on and on. I just know my DH had the patdown and his testicles were not "grabbed". Rather, they were brushed over. I will choose the scanners for my family. If they happened to get pat down as well; that is fine as long as it is done out in the open.

 

[sam_gordon]

If there is no case law, let me say (as a non-lawyer) "it's not illegal."

And if it's "not illegal"...

Does your doc force you to have a prostate/pelvic exam in order to leave the office? Mine doesn't . . . and he even allows me to stay on as a patient.

But I'm guessing the doc might say something about you not allowing him to do his job to the best of his ability.

As far as erring on the side of more security, why do ignore privacy rights but factor in your time? Not that I buy that TSA's recent actions improve real security.

I'm not convinced the new scanners/enhanced pat downs violate privacy rights. I also am not sure how much privacy rights we have (or should have) while flying. I still cringe when people call the new scanners "nude o scopes" or "virtual strip searches". Seeing the sample images on the web, there's not enough detail to infringe on privacy rights. That's simply my opinion.

 

[liebeheiss]

Over Thanksgiving weekend, I'm flying out of Manchester, NH for an 11 night stay at WDW. I believe that the Manchester airport (MHT) hasn't installed the security scanners yet so no problems are anticipated. My concern is on the trip back through MCO. From what I understand is that when you are in the scanner, you cannot see your possessions on the conveyer belt. Keeping my eyes on my possessions has always been an issue so this new scanner really throws me. I have multiple health issues so I carry lots of medicine on me. When I travel, I put my medications in a gallon storage baggie and at the airport, TSA has always made me place my baggie in a plastic bin with my other possessions. When I pull my medications out of my carry on, I look like a walking pharmaceutical. Any recommendations on how I can keep my medications and other valuables from being grabbed by someone who may not be honest? I also read that even with a pat down, you are not near your possessions or have eyes on.

As for the actual screening, I haven't made a decision on whether to have a pat down or be scanned. I have cancer so I have frequent exposure to CT scans and x-rays. As for the physicality, I no longer have much modesty due to invasive medical exams. I just want to get through this experience without a lot of drama/trauma so I can enjoy my vacation.

Thanks for any advice.
Sharon

 

[Let'sGoFlyAKite]

THIS guy agrees with ME!! http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/1...ity.measures/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

 

[CPT Tripss]

That doesn't make sense though. ASSUMING (correct me if I'm wrong) the TSA has a "procedure" of how the patdowns should be done, how is it a power trip? From what I understand, barring a WTMD (or other) alarm going off, TSA agents aren't choosing WHO gets the enhanced pat down... that it's the choice of the traveler. So how is it a power trip? The traveler says "I agree to the patdown", TSA procedures say "this is how the patdown should be done".

SNIP

As far as TSA having a procedure, they may have one, but you can't see it. It's secret.

So how in the world are you supposed to consent? It's a situation lifted straight out of "The Trial." And if that's too literary, ask Dean Wormer about double secret probation. Seriously, there is no way of knowing what TSA management has approved their screeners to do, so you can'y know whether they went too far.

The decision of whether to send you through the WTMD or the WBI rests with the TSAer at the front of the devices. You have no choice.

As far as whether you get a patdown, that decision rests with the TSAer after the WTMD - if your clothes are deemed "too baggy" you get the grope, even when you don't alarm. You have no choice.

The TSAer viewing the WBI image if that was selected for you, decides whether you get groped. If he/she deems something in the image suspicious, or even just blurry, you get the grope. You have no choice.

So basically, it's a front line TSAer that gets to decide whether or not to grope you. You have no choice.

 

[ccgirl]

I wish we could just stick to the facts here. There are people who feel strongly on both sides. The term "groped" is incorrect. There is an "enhanced pat down" not groping. That is why some people are concerned. They read people mentioning the term "groping" and get concerned.

 

[sam_gordon]

THIS guy agrees with ME!! http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/1...ity.measures/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

Just making sure... you understand he's talking about flight CREWS, not PASSENGERS, being able to skip the screening, right?

 

[sam_gordon]

As far as TSA having a procedure, they may have one, but you can't see it. It's secret.

I'm not quite that cynical. I do believe the TSA has a procedure for a pat down that their employees follow. It's either that, or thousands of personnel across the country come up with their own "pat downs".

So how in the world are you supposed to consent? It's a situation lifted straight out of "The Trial." And if that's too literary, ask Dean Wormer about double secret probation. Seriously, there is no way of knowing what TSA management has approved their screeners to do, so you can'y know whether they went too far.

You've consented to their screenings as soon as a) you go through the WTMD OR b) you put your bags on the conveyor belt. Someone mentioned a court case that the opinion specifically mentioned you can't "opt out" once the screening has started since that would give terrorists the ability to "probe" to see where they can access the secure area.

The decision of whether to send you through the WTMD or the WBI rests with the TSAer at the front of the devices. You have no choice.

As far as whether you get a patdown, that decision rests with the TSAer after the WTMD - if your clothes are deemed "too baggy" you get the grope, even when you don't alarm. You have no choice.

The TSAer viewing the WBI image if that was selected for you, decides whether you get groped. If he/she deems something in the image suspicious, or even just blurry, you get the grope. You have no choice.

So basically, it's a front line TSAer that gets to decide whether or not to grope you. You have no choice.

Yes, you do have a choice... find another mode of transportation.

I don't think TSA employees are doing pat downs as part of a "power trip" or for some kind of "gratification". Someone mentioned on the radio that "reverse profiling" should be in place... don't screen 87 year old women or guys who are with a wife & three kids wearing mouse ears. How long would it take for terrorists to figure out that's a shortcut?

 

[CPT Tripss]

Sam,

Show me the TSA procedure. Until you do, you can't claim I have given informed consent for any acts upon my person by a screener.

Now you are trying to change your aguement. You started with - the TSA screening employees don't have the discretion to pat someone down. With examples of the discretion they do indeed have, you now claim it's someone's choice whether to use airlines for travel.

If I have no carry on and I opt out of the WBI, when have I given any implied consent?

 

[sam_gordon]

Sam,

Show me the TSA procedure. Until you do, you can't claim I have given informed consent for any acts upon my person by a screener.

My memory isn't what it used to be... you may be better. In ONE of these threads, someone mentioned a court case brought by someone who was found with drug paraphernalia during a TSA screening. He tried to "opt out" AFTER being alarmed from WTMD & Hand-wands. I looked up the case (US vs. A?????) and there was a line in the courts finding about once you have gone through a screening or even put your bags on the belt that you have given consent. I swear I would quote the article I read, but I can't find it. I apologize. I did not know that you can't "opt out" once you basically "get in line".

Now you are trying to change your aguement. You started with - the TSA screening employees don't have the discretion to pat someone down. With examples of the discretion they do indeed have, you now claim it's someone's choice whether to use airlines for travel.

Actually, my stance from the beginning has been those who don't want to go through the (potential) new scanners or enhanced pat down have the choice to not fly.

I'm undecided about whether the new screenings are a violation of privacy rights. I'm leaning toward "not", but a persuasive argument can convince me (no offense, you've provided some good arguments, just not enough to put me over the edge).

If I have no carry on and I opt out of the WBI, when have I given any implied consent?

I don't know. The case I talked about above mentioned being able to continue the screening so terrorists can't "probe" the security.

 

[pennymom]

I'm not often on the Transportation Board, but when I saw the thread title, I had to read through as my husband and I were just discussing this last night. His stance is, "Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” I'm torn on the subject, and can see both sides. I read this article today and thought it was quite interesting and food for thought.

 

[goofy4tink]

THIS guy agrees with ME!! http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/1...ity.measures/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

We've been down this road on another thread...and now sam_gordon has found the same thing.

Just making sure... you understand he's talking about flight CREWS, not PASSENGERS, being able to skip the screening, right?

Yep, that's been pointed out already but it doesn't seem to be making an impact. People will believe what they want to believe.

I'm not often on the Transportation Board, but when I saw the thread title, I had to read through as my husband and I were just discussing this last night. His stance is, "Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” I'm torn on the subject, and can see both sides. I read this article
today and thought it was quite interesting and food for thought.

Yes, it's very safe over there in Israel. But....the numbers of people traveling through those airports is much, much smaller than here in the US. There is no way that our airports will ever have that kind of security.

We are starting to get threads confused here. Posters can't remember what they've said in which thread. It's time to shut some of them down. So, we're going to leave one open..please post in that one thread. Thanks.

 

[LadyBeBop]

Ah, but a "grope" to one is not a "grope" to another. Or, more likely, the "gropes" are the same, but the REASON for the "grope" is in question. If a doctor preformed the identical "pat down"/"grope" as part of an exam would anyone be crying "illegal"? I'm guessing not, because it's necessary for the doctor to do the job entrusted to them. Now, are the "enhanced pat downs/gropes" necessary for TSA to do their jobs? I don't know. I error on the side of more security is better than less.

There is a difference between a doctor examining you and a TSA employee examining you. Your OB/GYN or GP or internist had four years of medical school plus probably an additional four years of residency...enough time to develop a "bedside manner" so that their examinations are not bothersome and intrusive. Your TSA employee had maybe two months (and I'm being generous) of training before being sent out to "examine" others.

Have a question. Are airport employees (not on-board personal, but those who stay in the airport) subject to this as well? Both of my daughters used to work at the airport. In fact, my youngest used to work at the McDonalds inside security. I would hate for a Mickey D's employee to go through this, on a daily basis, just to get to work.

 

[sam_gordon]

I'm not often on the Transportation Board, but when I saw the thread title, I had to read through as my husband and I were just discussing this last night. His stance is, "Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” I'm torn on the subject, and can see both sides. I read this article today and thought it was quite interesting and food for thought.

Ah, but here's the question to ask your DH... what liberty are you giving up? I agree with you, I see both sides of the issue.

The "Israelification" has been discussed before. A couple things to point out though... according to the article you link, if the goal is to get fliers from the parking lot to the lounge in 25 minutes, then why does the Ben Gurion website suggest getting to the airport 3 HOURS before your flight for the security check?

Part two... according to Ben Gurion statistics (via Wiki), 10.9 million passengers went through the airport in 2009. That's the largest in Israel. Conversly, Atlanta International had 88 million passengers in 2009 (also Wiki). Heck, MCO even had 33 million. (source). So how do you handle the extra passengers? Obviously you need more screeners. Where's the money come from? And, do we also need to show up at airports 3 hours before our flights?

 

[sam_gordon]

We are starting to get threads confused here. Posters can't remember what they've said in which thread. It's time to shut some of them down. So, we're going to leave one open..please post in that one thread. Thanks.

THANK YOU!

There is a difference between a doctor examining you and a TSA employee examining you. Your OB/GYN or GP or internist had four years of medical school plus probably an additional four years of residency...enough time to develop a "bedside manner" so that their examinations are not bothersome and intrusive. Your TSA employee had maybe two months (and I'm being generous) of training before being sent out to "examine" others.

So the problem is the "bedside manner", NOT the "exam" itself? So if the screeners are polite, friendly, and professional (I'm guessing there are at least some out there), you're ok with it?

 

[jodifla]

double post