For Christians

[Wishing on a star]

I personally think that drug addiction, murdererers, and pedophiles are not born with a pre-dispostion to do those things. That's where sociology comes into play and the circumstance of how they were raised, the people around them, the situations they were exposed to. While, IMO, homosexuality has nothing to do with that, but more along the lines race, sex, or hair color. It's just part of who they are.

I will first say that our sin-nature is indeed a part of who we are.

To try to understand your post... Pedophilia, one type of sexuality/orientation, is chosen, but homosexuality is not??? And, you give no credibility to the fact that our psychological well being is heavily influenced by factors not of our own choosing... neurological deficits, imbalances, etc...

I mean no disrespect whatsoever, but this sounds a lot like one trying to justify their own personal judgements regarding what is sin and what isn't?

If we know and love a homosexual, or are a homosexual, isn't the natural response going to be to find a justification why homosexuality is not sinful. But yet all other transgressions are?

To paraphrase, eating from the tree of knowledge, thinking as they know good from evil, thinking as though they are god(s)....

Judgement should be reserved for the Lord.

 

[jimmiej]

Honestly I think Jesus would not have done as your church or JoyG's church did. I think he would have reminded us all to love each other, not judge each other and to help support each other when in need.

The Bible gives an example of the necessity of excommunication in a local church, the church at the city of Corinth (1 Corinthians 5:1-13). In this passage, the apostle Paul also gives some purposes behind the biblical use of excommunication. One reason (not directly found in the passage) is for the sake of the testimony of Christ Jesus (and His church) before the unbelievers. When David had sinned with Bathsheba, one of the consequences of his sin that God mentions is that the name of the one true God will be blasphemed by God's enemies (2 Samuel 12:14). A second reason is that sin is like a cancer; if allowed to exist, it spreads to those nearby just as a little yeast leavens a whole loaf of bread (1 Corinthians 5:6-7).

Also, Paul explains that Jesus saved us so that we might be set apart from sin, that we might be "unleavened" or free from that which decays spiritually (1 Corinthians 5:7-8). Christ's desire for His bride, the Church, is that she might be pure and undefiled (Ephesians 5:25-27). Excommunication is also for the long-term welfare of the one being disciplined by the church. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 5:5, states that excommunication is a way of delivering "such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." This means that excommunication can somehow involve God using Satan (or one of his demons) as a disciplinary tool to work in the sinner's life physically to bring about true repentance in his/her heart.

Kicking someone out for a sin seems hypocritical. Who are we to judge one sin to be worse than another?

Actually, it's Biblical.

1 Corinthians 5:11-13 (New International Version)

11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

 

[clgwli]

Your first quote doesn't make much sense to me as Christian who does sin (even though I try not to). Everyone does it as it is our nature. So that one does not help support near as much though I do get the idea of what you are saying with it. I hope that makes sense.

However the one you quoted that gave specifics still bothers me. Are you not greedy? I know I am at times. I can't help it but it is one of my faults. Should I be shoved out of the church? Should someone who has a sexual addiction be tossed to the side? Should someone who is trying to recover from alcoholism be tossed as well?

By the exact wording of that version of the Bible I'd say around 75% of the church should be banished.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Ohhh Myyy!!!!

If sinners were to be excommunicated, there would not be not one member of one church anywhere on the face of the earth!!!

We are ALL sinners!!!!

JimmieJ, I think that one must be careful to focus on the words of Christ, and not selective passages that are the quotes of man....

I do think that there is a difference between excommunication of sinners and perhaps, when necessary, protecting the Christian flock from non-christian, evil, non-repentant sinners. ( wicked, Unbeliever...)

 

[jimmiej]

Your first quote doesn't make much sense to me as Christian who does sin (even though I try not to). Everyone does it as it is our nature. So that one does not help support near as much though I do get the idea of what you are saying with it. I hope that makes sense.

However the one you quoted that gave specifics still bothers me. Are you not greedy? I know I am at times. I can't help it but it is one of my faults. Should I be shoved out of the church? Should someone who has a sexual addiction be tossed to the side? Should someone who is trying to recover alcoholism be tossed as well?

By the exact wording of that version of the Bible I'd say around 75% of the church should be banished.

You answered your own question (see above).

 

[mkingdomlvr]

There is a huge difference between a sinner who doesn't want to sin, and a sinner who doesn't care that they're sinning and actually revels in it. I find it hard to believe why a person who isn't trying not to sin would be coming to church anyway-I think most of them remove themselves from the community.

 

[clgwli]

You answered your own question (see above).

What about the remainer of the ones I said?

 

[clgwli]

There is a huge difference between a sinner who doesn't want to sin, and a sinner who doesn't care that they're sinning and actually revels in it. I find it hard to believe why a person who isn't trying not to sin would be coming to church anyway-I think most of them remove themselves from the community.

And my thought is that how can you tell if people really revel or not. You are judging people and situations when you shouldn't.

There are times I don't care that I have sinned. I admit it. Why would that be different? Just because my sins are a "lesser" level?

Sorry I don't get it.

 

[Wishing on a star]

JimmieJ,

If I am remembering you, and many of your prior post, it seems to be that you have a strong conviction that, as a Christian, it is your right, and your even your duty, to judge others. You are well versed in justifying your views with selective scripture. When the abortion issue earlier in this thread didn't garner universal support, other issues were brought in... culminating with the inevitable debate re: homosexuality.

You must realize that you will not change anyone elses mind about 'judgement', any more than anyone else has been able to change your mind.

I truly do not think that you will find anybody who will happily say, "Okay, JimmieJ, you are the Christian.. go ahead and judge me!!!!" Like it would be an honor.

My comments have been the same to both sides... both those who choose to call sin, and to those who try to sanctify. Judgement is reserved for the Lord.

All we can do is to 'Let go, and let God'.

 

[jimmiej]

Ohhh Myyy!!!!

If sinners were to be excommunicated, there would not be not one member of one church anywhere on the face of the earth!!!

We are ALL sinners!!!!

JimmieJ, I think that one must be careful to focus on the words of Christ, and not selective passages that are the quotes of man....

I do think that there is a difference between excommunication of sinners and perhaps, when necessary, protecting the Christian flock from non-christian, evil, non-repentant sinners.

You mean these words?

John 8

11 "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Or these?

Matthew 18

15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.


As far as Paul's writings being "the quotes of man", I disagree. According to the Lord's own words, Paul was chosen by Jesus to be His mouthpiece to the Gentiles.

 

[jimmiej]

What about the remainer of the ones I said?

It appeared to me you only made one point: We're all sinners.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Once again, selective quotes, not mandates from Christ...

I notice right away that the quote you gave above... does not just say 'when your brother sins"... It says "When he sins AGAINST YOU." Such as when you need protection or resolution.... It is not about passing spiritual judgement and condemnation... It is about resolution.

I think that I have said all that I can say to you about all of this....

I wish you Christ's freedom and love and peace.

 

[jimmiej]

If I am remembering you, and many of your prior post, it seems to be that you have a strong conviction that, as a Christian, it is your right, and your even your duty, to judge others. You are well versed in justifying your views with selective scripture. When the abortion issue earlier in this thread didn't garner universal support, other issues were brought in... culminating with the inevitable debate re: homosexuality.

It is the Biblical duty of the church to monitor itself. However, Scripture demands church discipline should be done in love and with the hope of repentance and reinstatement.

We have all likely witnessed the behavior of a child who has been allowed to do as he/she pleases with no or very little consistent discipline. It is not a pretty sight! Nor is such parenting loving for it dooms the child to a dismal future. Such behavior will keep the child from forming meaningful relationships and performing well in any kind of a setting, whether socially or in an occupation. In a like manner, discipline in the church setting, while neither enjoyable nor easy, is not only necessary, but loving as well. Moreover, it is commanded by God.

 

[jimmiej]

Once again, selective quotes, not mandates from Christ...

I notice right away that the quote you gave above... does not just say 'when your brother sins"... It says "When he sins AGAINST YOU." Such as when you need protection or resolution.... It is not about passing spiritual judgement and condemnation... It is about resolution.

I think that I have said all that I can say to you about all of this....

I wish you Christ's freedom and love and peace.

Not a mandate? Really?

Our current discussion is about an extra-marital affair in the church. Isn't that sin committed against SOMEONE?

Thank you for your good wishes. I wish you the same.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

And my thought is that how can you tell if people really revel or not. You are judging people and situations when you shouldn't.

There are times I don't care that I have sinned. I admit it. Why would that be different? Just because my sins are a "lesser" level?

Sorry I don't get it.

You've been on this thread all day pointing out how judgmental everyone else is-what does that say about you?

It can be very obvious when someone has completely rejected the teachings of Jesus, sometimes they even tell you flat out. Like I said-I have a feeling that someone who has done that would remove themselves from a church before anyone would confront them or even consider asking them to leave. I think we're arguing over something that would rarely occur.

 

[clgwli]

You've been on this thread all day pointing out how judgmental everyone else is-what does that say about you?

It can be very obvious when someone has completely rejected the teachings of Jesus, sometimes they even tell you flat out. Like I said-I have a feeling that someone who has done that would remove themselves from a church before anyone would confront them or even consider asking them to leave. I think we're arguing over something that would rarely occur.

When did I ever say I was judging someone. I said I didn't get it. I gave examples contrary to what was told me and no one explained why as a human we think we can judge one sin to be worse than another.

I was trying to understand and yet I get labeled as such? That's not fair at all. Especially since others here have more or less told me I am wrong in my beliefs and feelings.

I do not judge. In fact I tried to support a few here when discussing hard issues. I just simply am trying to understand. Yes I ask hard questions sometimes but jimmiej sure did here too and wasn't labeled by you as judgemental.

I simply do not understand why an affair is grounds to kick someone out of church but my desire to have nice things in life (greed) is not.

If you can't answer that is fine just don't attack me for something I never did.

I honestly try to understand. I may not agree but that does not mean I am judgemental. It just means I do not agree. Once I do understand and don't agree I simply say "we have to agree to disagree" and walk on. At this point I do not even understand.

It may mean I am stupid but I am trying.

 

[clgwli]

Just to add I truly enjoy discussing and even arguing religion and even politics. We don't have to agree but I enjoy talking about it. I do also try to ask hard questions to make sense of everything and to give everyone (myself included) more to think about. I cannot blindly follow anything and I enjoy pondering and learning as I go along.

That is all I am trying to do here. If others take it poorly then I am sorry. I will bow out.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

Jesus said the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit-which I've usually heard defined as a total rejection of God. So what happens when someone rejects God? They reject His teachings, they reject His church and they behave as they wish. I doubt that sexual sins are the only ones committed by those who have totally rejected God.

A person who has totally rejected God most likely would not want to be in a church-but what if they hung around, just to be an agitator? Would it not be better for the church community to ask this person to leave rather than to allow them to stay and poison that community from within?

 

[mkingdomlvr]

And my thought is that how can you tell if people really revel or not. You are judging people and situations when you shouldn't.

There are times I don't care that I have sinned. I admit it. Why would that be different? Just because my sins are a "lesser" level?

Sorry I don't get it.

When did I ever say I was judging someone. I said I didn't get it. I gave examples contrary to what was told me and no one explained why as a human we think we can judge one sin to be worse than another.

I was trying to understand and yet I get labeled as such? That's not fair at all. Especially since others here have more or less told me I am wrong in my beliefs and feelings.

I do not judge. In fact I tried to support a few here when discussing hard issues. I just simply am trying to understand. Yes I ask hard questions sometimes but jimmiej sure did here too and wasn't labeled by you as judgemental.

I simply do not understand why an affair is grounds to kick someone out of church but my desire to have nice things in life (greed) is not.

If you can't answer that is fine just don't attack me for something I never did.

I honestly try to understand. I may not agree but that does not mean I am judgemental. It just means I do not agree. Once I do understand and don't agree I simply say "we have to agree to disagree" and walk on. At this point I do not even understand.

It may mean I am stupid but I am trying.

You accused me of judging others and informed me that I shouldn't. Were you not judging me when you did that??

 

[jimmiej]

I simply do not understand why an affair is grounds to kick someone out of church but my desire to have nice things in life (greed) is not.

Actually, several years ago, our pastor asked a member to leave the church because he was basically ripping people off through shady financial deals. Greed was his downfall.

It's not about any one sin. It's about really two things according to the Bible. Unrepentent sin & maintaining church unity.

I said this earlier on some (???) thread: As Christ increases, sin decreases.

BTW, I'm not implying anything about you personally in my above statements.