For Christians

[clgwli]

I am sure you are going to hate me...

Could it be possible that the adulterer was going through issues at the time and while it seemed that they would never get over them that eventually they could get back to God? Like the previous poster said about the situation where 2 years later they affair ended. Would it be wise to try to invest some time in helping the sinner before you "kick them out"?

My view is more along that way but I also realize I am far more of a "liberal" in that sense than many.

To answer you yes there are those who remain in church to be only agitators. They enjoy playing on the weaknesses of others and instead of understanding and strengthening the views of others they try to tear them down. While I am saying that I do think there are some in church who do that without realizing it either. They get joy out of others pain.

I think in that case it would be wise to councel someone. I am not much for showing someone the door but gently guiding them (so to speak) would probably be my way of doing it. I hope that makes sense. I am the eternal optimist though. I would hope by guiding them towards the door (so to speak) that they would see their actions and work for change I know it wouldn't happen always but it would be my hope.

 

[clgwli]

You accused me of judging others and informed me that I shouldn't. Were you not judging me when you did that??

I do apologize. I see where you got that. While it is minor I truly meant to say "It would seem that you are judging" I also forgot to say that "Only God can truly judge. What makes you feel that we have the right to?"
Please accept my mistake in wording. I have a tendency to type faster than my brain goes at times and I do dumb things like that
I do make observations on actions. And my observation was that you were apparently being a bit judgemental. So I was questioning that. Obviously my post was short and not well thought out.

Jimmiej I thank you for that. While I don't think I will agree you are at least very consistant in your thoughts
I don't mean that as an insult at all. I just do think it is the area that we won't agree on but I do see your view much better now!

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I am sure you are going to hate me...

Could it be possible that the adulterer was going through issues at the time and while it seemed that they would never get over them that eventually they could get back to God? Like the previous poster said about the situation where 2 years later they affair ended. Would it be wise to try to invest some time in helping the sinner before you "kick them out"?

My view is more along that way but I also realize I am far more of a "liberal" in that sense than many.

To answer you yes there are those who remain in church to be only agitators. They enjoy playing on the weaknesses of others and instead of understanding and strengthening the views of others they try to tear them down. While I am saying that I do think there are some in church who do that without realizing it either. They get joy out of others pain.

I think in that case it would be wise to councel someone. I am not much for showing someone the door but gently guiding them (so to speak) would probably be my way of doing it. I hope that makes sense. I am the eternal optimist though. I would hope by guiding them towards the door (so to speak) that they would see their actions and work for change I know it wouldn't happen always but it would be my hope.

I highly doubt that any church would just kick someone out without finding out the story and trying to help them first. I don't know what experience you have with churches, but it seems that you have a negative view of how these delicate situations are handled. I wouldn't want to be a member of a church who would just kick someone out without doing anything first.

 

[clgwli]

I highly doubt that any church would just kick someone out without finding out the story and trying to help them first. I don't know what experience you have with churches, but it seems that you have a negative view of how these delicate situations are handled. I wouldn't want to be a member of a church who would just kick someone out without doing anything first.

What is with you making these statements about me??????

I have NEVER seen anyone kicked out of any churches I have attended ever. Not once.

That is why I ask about it. It is totally a foreign concept to me so I ask questions.

I am a very devout Christian who attends church regularly. I volunteer more of my free time to not only help my church and others every week than I do actually spending time in my church on Sunday. During the holidays I am hardly ever at home helping those in need.

Where on earth do you get that I have a negative view of anything dealing with a church.

Like I said I have NEVER seen anyone in my church get kicked out so I truly do not see how it can happen.

I take it back. Once I saw a man escorted from church. He was a homeless person who was screaming during service. A couple of the clergy helped him out of the sanctuary. Where he went after that I do not know.

But the idea to force someone to leave a church they are a part of just is really not something I understand at all.

So please stop your judgments of me. You are obviously 100% off on me today. Do you think that everyone is out to get you and put you down? I surely am not the kind. This is twice in a short time you have made such statements of me. I ask you kindly to stop. I seriously want to understand.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

What is with you making these statements about me??????

I have NEVER seen anyone kicked out of any churches I have attended ever. Not once.

That is why I ask about it. It is totally a foreign concept to me so I ask questions.

I am a very devout Christian who attends church regularly. I volunteer more of my free time to not only help my church and others every week than I do actually spending time in my church on Sunday. During the holidays I am hardly ever at home helping those in need.

Where on earth do you get that I have a negative view of anything dealing with a church.

Like I said I have NEVER seen anyone in my church get kicked out so I truly do not see how it can happen.

I take it back. Once I saw a man escorted from church. He was a homeless person who was screaming during service. A couple of the clergy helped him out of the sanctuary. Where he went after that I do not know.

But the idea to force someone to leave a church they are a part of just is really not something I understand at all.

So please stop your judgments of me. You are obviously 100% off on me today. Do you think that everyone is out to get you and put you down? I surely am not the kind. This is twice in a short time you have made such statements of me. I ask you kindly to stop. I seriously want to understand.

I AM NOT JUDGING YOU. All I said was I didn't know what kind of experience you had. For all I knew you came from a church that had kicked people out without counseling-since you brought it up.

FTR-nobody has ever been asked to leave our church, as far as I know. The only people that I know left were the two I mentioned earlier in the thread who CHOSE to leave due to an extra-marital affair.

 

[jimmiej]

I am sure you are going to hate me...

Could it be possible that the adulterer was going through issues at the time and while it seemed that they would never get over them that eventually they could get back to God? Like the previous poster said about the situation where 2 years later they affair ended. Would it be wise to try to invest some time in helping the sinner before you "kick them out"?

Actually, Matthew 18 outlines exactly that.

 

[jimmiej]

Jimmiej I thank you for that. While I don't think I will agree you are at least very consistant in your thoughts
I don't mean that as an insult at all. I just do think it is the area that we won't agree on but I do see your view much better now!

I've enjoyed the conversation.

 

[clgwli]

It is late and I will have to call it a night.

I will read Matthew 18 before I go to bed.

I do apologize to mkingdomlvr (my favorite park too btw) for my outburst. This is a text environment and I obviously took you wrong since you suggested I had a negative view.

As I said I have had no experience with that ever. I know people leave my church but for many reasons and many I never know. I even had a friend leave and I still do not understand why.

From the two stories here that I read (if I missed one I apologize) it sounded like the sin was discovered and out you go...

that seemed callous and against all I feel is right in my heart. I was wondering if those with experience could explain how the church handled it and how long of a process it was.

Good night all. It has been interesting and very enlightening to read here

 

[Minnie Lor]

Thank you Jimmie for articulating my beliefs.

 

[jimmiej]

It is late and I will have to call it a night.

I will read Matthew 18 before I go to bed.

I do apologize to mkingdomlvr (my favorite park too btw) for my outburst. This is a text environment and I obviously took you wrong since you suggested I had a negative view.

As I said I have had no experience with that ever. I know people leave my church but for many reasons and many I never know. I even had a friend leave and I still do not understand why.

From the two stories here that I read (if I missed one I apologize) it sounded like the sin was discovered and out you go...

that seemed callous and against all I feel is right in my heart. I was wondering if those with experience could explain how the church handled it and how long of a process it was.

Good night all. It has been interesting and very enlightening to read here

Believe me, a lot goes on behind the scenes in these situations. It's always better to resolve these issues in private.

 

[Buckalew11]

Actually, it's Biblical.

1 Corinthians 5:11-13 (New International Version)

11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

I've read all the way through and I agree and disagree with some of what has been said. What's new?

Anyway, while I understand what JimmieJ is saying and this has also been my experience within the church when 2 members were having an affair (heck, my childhood preacher had an affair with my youth minister's wife and now they are happily married!), the experience has not been the same when it was only 1 member of the church.

There are several members of my church that have had outside of their marriage affairs with non-members of of church. Some of those people are still around. Some still married and some divorced. I've only seen them asked to leave when it was 2 members of the church.

The verse goes on to talk about others also though. Churches are full of greedy people, don't you think? Or am I alone it that? Sure, like clgwli said, I can be greedy also. An idolatry? While no one seems to be worshipping a golden calf or statue, there are plenty of people worshipping money, possessions, TV, computer, their children even, anything put above the Lord...

Should we be asked to leave the church? Should we ask them to leave? I just do not understand all this at all. Ask them to leave if they commit a "big" sin in our eyes but if they are, say, a smoker, they can stay even though they are daily harming the temple of the Lord? And they can stay if they commit daily the sin of gluttony even though they are visibly overweight and others can see it outwardly and know they food seems to their "god"?

*sigh* Honestly, I am very confused on this type of issue. If, when we recognized our need for Jesus Christ as our Saviour and Lord, we magically stopped sinning--or even didn't ever sin again by trying so hard not too, it would make sense to me. But as long as we're human, we're going to sin, saved or not. We try, we struggle and yet, we remain imprefect people--needing Jesus Christ daily.

I do understand that God knows my (our) hearts. I guess that is the only place I can turn to on these types of issues. While rejection of the need for Jesus Christ seems to be the unpardonable sin, why do we make things like homosexuality be the unpardonable sin? Why isn't a lifestyle of gluttony or not taking care of the temple of the Lord (our bodies)? Can a homosexual be a saved christian? Does it boil down to whether or not they are having a sex life or just identifying in life as a homosexual but resisting the urge? Can an overweight person really be saved? Even if they are practicing a life of gluttony daily? Or are they only OK if they are overweight and dieting constantly and feeling guilt for overeating at mealtime?

I realize I am probably driving some people crazy with this but I would really like to have some answers. If you read my ramblings, I appreciate your time. If you can answer my questions, I would love to read your thoughts. TIA

 

[JoyG]

In my church's case, the affair was between two members whose entire families attended church. I think allowing the cheating members to stay would have alienated the devastated families who were caught up in the middle of this. If the cheaters had stayed, their families would have left. The church helped the abandoned spouses get through their ordeal.

The cheaters would not have been asked to leave if they had any interest in stopping the affair and restoring their families.

Their situation made it impossible for the cheaters to continue with our congregation, but that doesn't mean they should abandon congregating with believers at all. They were asked to leave our church, but not the body of Christ. I think the situation was complicated by the fact our church was responsible for ministering to the offended families and it wouldn't have been possible to serve both.

 

[Buckalew11]

In my church's case, the affair was between two members whose entire families attended church. I think allowing the cheating members to stay would have alienated the devastated families who were caught up in the middle of this. If the cheaters had stayed, their families would have left. The church helped the abandoned spouses get through their ordeal.

The cheaters would not have been asked to leave if they had any interest in stopping the affair and restoring their families.

I have a friend whose ex-DH had an affair with a married woman at his church. So, all members of each family attended this church. The couple having the affair were not asked to leave but eventually have stopped going (and are still, 5 years later, continuing the affair). It did alienate my friend but she (nor the DH of the other woman--who is actually still married to the woman) never left the church. I do know my friend wanted the church to ask them to leave but the church chose not to. I am sure this was a very hard situation for all the members of that church. A really bad, bad situation. And of course, the real losers in the whole thing are the 4 devastated children.

 

[clgwli]

In my church's case, the affair was between two members whose entire families attended church. I think allowing the cheating members to stay would have alienated the devastated families who were caught up in the middle of this. If the cheaters had stayed, their families would have left. The church helped the abandoned spouses get through their ordeal.

The cheaters would not have been asked to leave if they had any interest in stopping the affair and restoring their families.

Their situation made it impossible for the cheaters to continue with our congregation, but that doesn't mean they should abandon congregating with believers at all. They were asked to leave our church, but not the body of Christ. I think the situation was complicated by the fact our church was responsible for ministering to the offended families and it wouldn't have been possible to serve both.

Thank you for giving the story. May I ask how big of a church you attend? Mine is rather large and I am not sure it would have even had an effect on the church as a whole. I know a good number of my fellow church goers but with 5 different services a weekend with on average 600 attending each service I am not sure it would effect like that.

Thank you Buckalew11 for your views. I appreciate reading them as well

 

[JoyG]

Thank you for giving the story. May I ask how big of a church you attend? Mine is rather large and I am not sure it would have even had an effect on the church as a whole. I know a good number of my fellow church goers but with 5 different services a weekend with on average 600 attending each service I am not sure it would effect like that.

Thank you Buckalew11 for your views. I appreciate reading them as well

The church that this happened in only had one Sunday morning service and about 350 regular attenders. Everybody knows everyone else. If not by name, definitely by face.

 

[clgwli]

Thank you again JoyG. It helps me to put this all in context and understand how it worked. I think when you are used to one type of thing it is hard to understand since it is just "foreign". KWIM? I really do appreciate it. While I can't totally comprehend it happening in my church it makes sense more to me how it could happen in others.

 

[jimmiej]

The verse goes on to talk about others also though. Churches are full of greedy people, don't you think? Or am I alone it that? Sure, like clgwli said, I can be greedy also. An idolatry? While no one seems to be worshipping a golden calf or statue, there are plenty of people worshipping money, possessions, TV, computer, their children even, anything put above the Lord...

Should we be asked to leave the church? Should we ask them to leave? I just do not understand all this at all. Ask them to leave if they commit a "big" sin in our eyes but if they are, say, a smoker, they can stay even though they are daily harming the temple of the Lord? And they can stay if they commit daily the sin of gluttony even though they are visibly overweight and others can see it outwardly and know they food seems to their "god"?

Brenda, I think it comes down to, how does the problem affect church unity? I posted earlier about a man in our church who got greedy & it affected several other members. That situation was handled quietly behind the scenes by the church leadership.

We did have one situation that was forced to go before the church body, as outlined in Matthew 18. A man was carrying a handgun while at church. He had a concealed-carry permit. When he took off his coat, it was plain to see. Several members were shook up by this, but he refused to stop. In the end, the church voted to ask him to leave. It was a rough time for our pastor & deacons.

I guess my point is, it's not that one sin is "worse", but rather how that person's sinful actions affect the church body & it's mission.

Wow, we've really strayed from my OP (mostly my fault).

 

[Buckalew11]

jimmie, Thanks for that answer. That makes a lot of common sense. However, it does make me wonder how not allowing a homosexual to stay would hurt the unity. I realize people who eat too much only hurt when it is potluck day and unless people who smoke are smoking in your presence (second hand smoke) would it hurt you and might effect the unity of the church.

Thanks for your answer. I have been thinking about this recently because of my classmates DD. She's a freshman in HS. How will people react? We've never had a situation like this that I have been privy to in all my years. I am sure there have been homosexual members in my churches in the past but I think back then people didn't come out about it. We'll see...

 

[jimmiej]

jimmie, Thanks for that answer. That makes a lot of common sense. However, it does make me wonder how not allowing a homosexual to stay would hurt the unity. I realize people who eat too much only hurt when it is potluck day and unless people who smoke are smoking in your presence (second hand smoke) would it hurt you and might effect the unity of the church.

Thanks for your answer. I have been thinking about this recently because of my classmates DD. She's a freshman in HS. How will people react? We've never had a situation like this that I have been privy to in all my years. I am sure there have been homosexual members in my churches in the past but I think back then people didn't come out about it. We'll see...

The homosexual issue would be a tough one, I admit. I'm reminded of this passage:

James 1:5 (New International Version)

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.