For Christians

[jimmiej]

I go to a church with my family where they have a strong homosexual population. All are welcomed. We love the sinners and try to forgive all sins that we make.

Let's say a member in your church has been caught in an extra-marital affair. No doubt about it. This person freely admits it and has no intention of stopping this relationship. However, they want to continue their church membership. What does your (the general you) church do?

 

[xoprincessmomxo]

Let's say a member in your church has been caught in an extra-marital affair. No doubt about it. This person freely admits it and has no intention of stopping this relationship. However, they want to continue their church membership. What does your (the general you) church do?

I'll answer from my church, as this has happened. Counseling was offered and refused by the couple. They were still welcome in our church. Eventually, with God's hand and a strong church family who supported them, the affair stopped after nearly two years. But, they were never excluded from our church.

 

[clgwli]

Let's say a member in your church has been caught in an extra-marital affair. No doubt about it. This person freely admits it and has no intention of stopping this relationship. However, they want to continue their church membership. What does your (the general you) church do?

Do you want me to answer based on my feelings or the church itself?

That is a good question though. As a church my actual church would probably do nothing other than councel the couple. They would be there for the sinner and honestly try to help them see their ways as being wrong. Once you go through the ceremony of confirming your status as an adult Christian you are in. You are asked to keep your vow of marriage sacred and pure but they cannot do anything technically for something like that.

What would I do? I don't know. I would most likely want to help the couple as best as possible. While I am not a supporter of divorce except under extreme conditions I would probably be in favor of it in this case. The cheater is emotionally abusing their spouse and they should not have to put up with it. I would help out the cheater if they truly decided what they did was wrong.

As for a PP who thinks that being a homosexual is NOT a sin I am actually with you. I have read many times the verses that talk about it and in general the sin was disobeying God or acting in other sinful manners. I could go into it more but I think we are connecting things when we shouldn't.

And before I continue this is not something I am in the mood to debate just know I question translations and interpretations Right or wrong it is how I am currently leaning. I am still trying to read and pray on this matter so my arguments are not complete.

That said I think that if people are in a loving and comitted relationship they are no more sinful in engaging in sex acts if they are homosexual or heterosexual.

 

[JoyG]

Let's say a member in your church has been caught in an extra-marital affair. No doubt about it. This person freely admits it and has no intention of stopping this relationship. However, they want to continue their church membership. What does your (the general you) church do?

This happened at my church too.

Both members were asked to leave.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

This happened at my church too.

Both members were asked to leave.

We had it at our church too, and the members left of their own choice. Nobody asked them to go, they simply realized that they could no longer stay if they were acting outside the values of the community.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I have to disagee based on my studies. If you look at history you will find that persecution happened. People were forced to follow the laws of others beliefs or die. They were forced to follow the same rituals and laws whether they wanted to or not. They may not want to believe but many wound up doing so because it was easier.

Next time you don't have to lecture me on how religious holidays were formed. I did quite a lot of study on that thank you. Many traditions and rituals are taken from non-Christians. Holy days were moved to try to get others to follow the beliefs. It was fact and it worked ofr many. For example it wasn't until the 8th century that All Saints Day was moved to coincide with the pagan rituals. Not all were as early as you are implying.

But to claim that no one can be forced into a belief is not a fact as you so bolded.

I do need to tell you that you are incorrect. With the orthodox and Catohlic faiths Christmas, Easter, All Saints day etc are holy days. Holy days of obligation. To a Jew it wouldn't be. To a Catholic it would be

Sorry, but we will then have to agree to disagree...
Somebody could hold a gun to my head, and I would not believe that 2 + 2 does not equal 4... I would not believe that some statue of some creature was my god...

Also, there are millions of people worldwide who participate in celebrating Christmas who have NO personal 'belief' in Christ as their Lord.

Honestly, I fail to see how Christian's giving up their ways and "ADOPTING TO THE WAYS OF THE WORLD' (ie. common worldly celebrations) could ever begin to be considered as imposing their own true beliefs and holy days on others. That just does not even make any sense whatsoever. Quite the opposite.

The Christians gave up the true Holy Days. Which we are commanded by God in the scriptures NOT to do... These days were like covenants... And they adopted non-christian celebrations.
They became 'of this world'.

Quite the opposit of imposing true Judeao-Christian spiritual and scriptural ideals on others.

And, as far as your last statement re: the Catholic Church and so called Holy Days...
As far as I am concerned, if any so called Holy Days were instituted by the Roman Catholic Church, or any other 'church', and not by the Word, the scriptures... then they most certainly are not holy.

 

[Wishing on a star]

saying that homosexuality is a sin is the same as saying being black is a sin, being a woman is a sin. They were born that way. I know, the bible says that it is a sin, but in my heart, I can't believe that God would condemn someone for the chemistry in their brain, the way that they are born.

Perhaps a broader view here....

We are ALL born as sinners...

ALL of us, every single one of us, was born as a sinful, mortal, human being....

When you look at this issue in all of it's fullness... Why is the 'sin' of homosexuality any different than the sin of any other person????

We are all sinners...
We are all forgiven...

It is just soooooo difficult to see this without the limitations of our human experience. You mention things that we are born with, such as skin color, which are actually not sin... But, consider... We are all 'BORN' with sin. Is the drug addict not often born with a predispositon to addiction??? Is the murderer not born with psychological/emotional flaws or imbalances???? Or, how about the pedophile??? Should we 'welcome' them into our flocks, around our children? Just because one is 'born that way' does not mean that it is not sinful.

I am not sure the human mind is capable of even seeing these issues in all of their fullness.

 

[xoprincessmomxo]

Perhaps a broader view here....

We are ALL born as sinners...

ALL of us, every single one of us, was born as a sinful, mortal, human being....

When you look at this issue in all of it's fullness... Why is the 'sin' of homosexuality any different than the sin of any other person????

We are all sinners...
We are all forgiven...

It is just soooooo difficult to see this without the limitations of our human experience. You mention things that we are born with, such as skin color, which are actually not sin... But, consider... We are all 'BORN' with sin. Is the drug addict not often born with a predispositon to addiction??? Is the murderer not born with psychological/emotional flaws or imbalances???? Or, how about the pedophile??? Should we 'welcome' them into our flocks, around our children? Just because one is 'born that way' does not mean that it is not sinful.

I am not sure the human mind is capable of even seeing these issues in all of their fullness.

I personally think that drug addiction, murdererers, and pedophiles are not born with a pre-dispostion to do those things. That's where sociology comes into play and the circumstance of how they were raised, the people around them, the situations they were exposed to. While, IMO, homosexuality has nothing to do with that, but more along the lines race, sex, or hair color. It's just part of who they are.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I personally think that drug addiction, murdererers, and pedophiles are not born with a pre-dispostion to do those things. That's where sociology comes into play and the circumstance of how they were raised, the people around them, the situations they were exposed to. While, IMO, homosexuality has nothing to do with that, but more along the lines race, sex, or hair color. It's just part of who they are.

There is work being done to determine if addictive personality is genetically based. It's already been determined that alcoholism can run in families. If you are born with that tendency, should you just hang it up and not try to control it?

 

[jimmiej]

I'll answer from my church, as this has happened. Counseling was offered and refused by the couple. They were still welcome in our church. Eventually, with God's hand and a strong church family who supported them, the affair stopped after nearly two years. But, they were never excluded from our church.

What do you think Jesus would have said?

This happened at my church too.

Both members were asked to leave.

Same at my church. The man was in a leadership position. They refused counseling & were asked to leave immediately.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

What do you think Jesus would have said?



Same at my church. The man was in a leadership position. They refused counseling & were asked to leave immediately.

"Go and sin no more" comes to mind.....

 

[Decorated_Dust]

I personally think that drug addiction, murdererers, and pedophiles are not born with a pre-dispostion to do those things. That's where sociology comes into play and the circumstance of how they were raised, the people around them, the situations they were exposed to. While, IMO, homosexuality has nothing to do with that, but more along the lines race, sex, or hair color. It's just part of who they are.

There is actually a good deal of research that says homosexuality is a combination of temperament and environment. The research was so solid that the APA actually changed their stance and said that homosexuality comes from a number of causes. A couple of statistics (but by far not the only ones) is that there is a higher prevalence of sexual abuse among homosexuals, both men and women. There is also a higher prevalence of absent fathers in gay men. If it were part of the biology, the prevalence would be the same as in the normal population. It's just not politically correct to say this in public since this means homosexuality has similar origins to the DSM disorders.

I do not hate homosexuals and do not see their acts as "special" by any means, but to say it's genetic is jumping the gun a bit. Same with it being a choice. That being said, I think it should be treated just like heterosexual sex. God laid out marriage to be a certain way, and any other way is against His will. God does not judge our urges, but He does judge our actions. In my Christian college, we allow gay students, but they cannot practice their homosexuality while at school. Same thing with heterosexual people, at least outside of marriage. That is the way to do it. Was are born with sin embedded within us. God asks us not to act on those things, and he helps us not to practice thanks to the Holy Spirit. I do think these places need to be more accepting, but at the same time, sin should not be accepted as "okay."

 

[xoprincessmomxo]

There is work being done to determine if addictive personality is genetically based. It's already been determined that alcoholism can run in families. If you are born with that tendency, should you just hang it up and not try to control it?

Of course not. But, IMO (and I have to say that, as I know this is not everyone's) drug addiction and homosexuality are completely different things. I just cannot fathom it as being a sin. And from a community standpoint, drug addiction harms everyone it's path. Homosexuality is not harmful. In fact, it's about love.

 

[xoprincessmomxo]

What do you think Jesus would have said?



Same at my church. The man was in a leadership position. They refused counseling & were asked to leave immediately.

Honestly, from this thread and the others like it: I'm beginnig to not care what the hell your Jesus and God would have said. The people I was talking about were my parents. THank God that they were not banished from my church as I believe they never would have recovered. But, you all can go on with this holier than thou attitude you have to most all sinners besides yourselves. I will happily go and walk my own path with God, and let him judge me (not other Christians) in the end.

 

[MiniGirl]

I know that there are differences in opinion about this, but for me, personally, saying that homosexuality is a sin is the same as saying being black is a sin, being a woman is a sin. They were born that way. I know, the bible says that it is a sin, but in my heart, I can't believe that God would condemn someone for the chemistry in their brain, the way that they are born.

The Bible says that there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, so God does not condemn someone for their sexual orientation. If that person knows Christ, they are not condemned.

 

[clgwli]

What do you think Jesus would have said?



Same at my church. The man was in a leadership position. They refused counseling & were asked to leave immediately.

Honestly I think Jesus would not have done as your church or JoyG's church did. I think he would have reminded us all to love each other, not judge each other and to help support each other when in need.

Kicking someone out for a sin seems hypocritical. Who are we to judge one sin to be worse than another?

 

[mkingdomlvr]

The Bible says that there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, so God does not condemn someone for their sexual orientation. If that person knows Christ, they are not condemned.

But if homosexual activity is a sin, that does not mean that the person committing the act is a sinful person-it means they committed a sinful act. Same with any other sin-I can commit a sin-but that doesn't mean I am sin. It means I did something sinful.

I don't think Jesus condemns anyone unless they choose to reject him.

 

[metalis4ever]

There is actually a good deal of research that says homosexuality is a combination of temperament and environment. The research was so solid that the APA actually changed their stance and said that homosexuality comes from a number of causes. A couple of statistics (but by far not the only ones) is that there is a higher prevalence of sexual abuse among homosexuals, both men and women. There is also a higher prevalence of absent fathers in gay men. If it were part of the biology, the prevalence would be the same as in the normal population. It's just not politically correct to say this in public since this means homosexuality has similar origins to the DSM disorders.

I do not hate homosexuals and do not see their acts as "special" by any means, but to say it's genetic is jumping the gun a bit. Same with it being a choice. That being said, I think it should be treated just like heterosexual sex. God laid out marriage to be a certain way, and any other way is against His will. God does not judge our urges, but He does judge our actions. In my Christian college, we allow gay students, but they cannot practice their homosexuality while at school. Same thing with heterosexual people, at least outside of marriage. That is the way to do it. Was are born with sin embedded within us. God asks us not to act on those things, and he helps us not to practice thanks to the Holy Spirit. I do think these places need to be more accepting, but at the same time, sin should not be accepted as "okay."

OT I know but I felt the need to add and respond to this particular quote within the subject..I don't mean to hijack the post or come across as condescending I am simply presenting the facts as I know them in the context of this quote.

I understand that there have been legitimate scientific studies that present alternative theories regarding Homosexuality, however I must point out as you had that there is also a LARGE amount of evidence to suggest that Homosexuality is genetic as well as socially motivated. Therefore again as you said stating either theory is 100% correct would be "jumping the gun" . Therefore, one could easily theorize that a combination if you will of psychological/social influences as well as Biological determine both hetero and homosexual tendencies. If one needs any evidence one must simply do some research on the Bonobo. The Bonobo are primates who maintain high levels of sexual activity within their populations. Said sexual activities not only include Heterosexual relationships but Homosexual relationships as well. Now given that The Bonobo does not have the ability of abstract thought (aka free will) then one must conclude that sexual activity is natural and biologically driven. Having said that as you noted there are other theories, however given the physical and observable evidence that The Bonobo provides us indicates that genetic influences can never be completely ruled out. Furthermore, the statement "If it were part of the biology, the prevalence would be the same as in the normal population." is severely flawed simply put are there a proper ratio of people who have Scleroderma? Long Thumbs? or Gray Eyes? NO because it is relative to the amount of Gene Flow, clearly there aren't a high number of Homosexuals reproducing therefore one must theorize that it is a combination of natural instincts, Gene Flow, and Genetic Mutation along with environmental influences whether it be psychological or sociological. Also keep in mind Scientific Theory as it really means accepted fact based upon available evidence, for example Gravity is just a "Theory".

 

[MiniGirl]

But if homosexual activity is a sin, that does not mean that the person committing the act is a sinful person-it means they committed a sinful act. Same with any other sin-I can commit a sin-but that doesn't mean I am sin. It means I did something sinful.

I don't think Jesus condemns anyone unless they choose to reject him.

That was my point. The poster I quoted said she couldn't believe God would condemn someone because they are a homosexual. I was saying that the sin isn't why God condemns because we all sin. The only unforgivable sin is rejecting Jesus.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

That was my point. The poster I quoted said she couldn't believe God would condemn someone because they are a homosexual. I was saying that the sin isn't why God condemns because we all sin. The only unforgivable sin is rejecting Jesus.

Ah, ok-I have it now. Sorry I misunderstood.