For $2 Billion Disney could have built 16 major attractions instead of fast pass+

[Davey Jones II]

I agree wholeheartedly with your first point. But I don't really see where you're going with your second point. Disney is not obligated to reinvest profits in the way that you prefer. To paraphrase Fix-It Felix - they don't have to do boo. You - and everyone else - have the power to vote with your wallet. You are not obligated to go. If MM+ is the disaster that some posters claim and seem to be rooting for, it will be very apparent. And then the crowds will no longer impinge on the quality of your trips.

Any business that fails to reinvest in their business is a doomed one. I hope I don't have to explain that obvious point.

Secondly, any business that does reinvest, but in the process fails to give their customers what they want to buy, is also doomed.

Third, it is particularly important to give your most loyal customers what they want, as per the 80/20 rule. When applied to business, that is a rule of thumb which states that 80% of your revenues come from 20% of your customers.

Now, I'm not saying that Disney is failing to reinvest in park infrastructure. But it's pretty clear that the pace of park reinvestment was greatly slowed (from glacial to sub-glacial) by the cost overruns and logistical/technical difficulties involved in installing the new IT.

Just look at DHS. It's probable that the Studios will be partly shuttered for the rest of the decade. Was that really their plan? In a park already begging for more attractions, they are closing a chunk of the place with nothing but rumors to give us hope for replacements.

Is this how you reward -- and keep -- the loyalty of your customers?

Also, I'm not at all convinced that this new IT was necessary for the company. They already had a reservation system in place, it worked fine, and it was less buggy than the new one. They already had a fast pass system, and it actually improved the loyalty of customers who knew how to use it. FP+ does nothing for customer loyalty; if you think that guests are more likely to come back just to get their measly three reservations per day, then I have some Florida swampland to sell you.

I know some of you worship at the alter of new tech. But how many times has a new gadget flopped miserably and failed to catch on? All the time. Newer is not always better. "Newer" often translates to "does the same thing as the last gadget, but with more bells, whistles, and bugs."

So why did Disney pull the trigger on this new IT? Not because they were "forward thinking". I contend they did it because they thought it would help sell more merch. That, and the data mining. So their priority is the continued Walmartization of WDW. Turn the place into a giant mall, and, oh yeah, here are some rides, too.

All rides exit through the gift shop. But if you put the gift shop ahead of the ride, you are putting the cart in front of the horse. And showing contempt for your customers.

 

[jade1]

FP+ does nothing for customer loyalty; if you think that guests are more likely to come back just to get their measly three reservations per day, then I have some Florida swampland to sell you.

I keep reading things like this as if they are fact.

Who are you to say this new system does not improve my loyalty to WDW?

We are way more excited to return with the "measly 3" FP+'s (which will increase in QTY as attractions are built IMO) waiting for us.

Why is that so hard for some to believe?

DONT MAKE ME POST THE PIC AGAIN.

 

[Davey Jones II]

If Disney quietly spent $2B on IT infrastructure, I don't think most people would care. I think what has people up in arms is that they spun it as a $2B enhancement to guest experience.

Some people ARE seeing an enhancement and others aren't. The thing is, is that money was always going to be spent on IT infrastructure, but people are seeing it as $2B taken out of entertainment. Which it is not.

That's not even factual. First of all, this $2 billion figure is far, far higher than Disney ever expected. I remember some months ago, we were discussing cost overruns when the bill ran up over $1 billion. Now it's up to $2 billion, and counting. They never anticipated spending this much, not even close.

As a result, a lot of money was taken out of entertainment. As I noted above, new projects are coming slower than ever. For the forseeable future, we're getting Avatar Land. That's pretty much it (and who knows whether or not that project has suffered budget cuts). Disneyland Resort has virtually nothing in the pipeline.

Under Iger, Disney was pretty good when it came to refreshing their parks. Then someone sold them this IT bill of goods. And we're all paying the price.

 

[FlipHipster]

I don't, I'm totally lying. jk

When FP- was the only gig in town I liked it a lot, even though I was always the FP runner. I honestly only tried to maximize FP at Epcot and DHS, at MK we mostly just grabbed them as we saw them. It was a bummer, especially at Epcot, to run across the park for Soarin FPs while everyone else went to Test Track. And it wasn't necessarily fun to be the ticket keeper. These things weren't deal breakers, but I do feel the new system is an improvement in that area. Now that I don't have to bother with tickets, paper FP, and being the FP runner I don't want to go back to doing it the old way. I doubt we'll use the kiosks, if we're near one we'll try it, if not I'm not going to bother with it.

It definitely feels better on paper, walking into the park with 3 FP's already in your pocket at first seems awesome. Having to schedule them 60 or 30 days out seems a bit much and takes away a lot of the magic. Especially when you actually get to the park and realize you don't need some of them and need others and the times you picked 2 months ago don't work for you anymore.

IMO the whole thing would be a much better experience for the guest if they treated it like a 1 time express pass. You get 3 line skips per park per day and each ride only once. No scheduling, just show up and choose which lines and when while you are there. Even those that like the appointments could still choose to skip a line at the times they wanted. Everybody wins with that one except Disney though. I'm not sure it would work in 2.5 of the parks, there just isn't enough headliner capacity and not enough secondary to spread crowds around so we have to tour by Appt. Epcot is a little different since there is a lot to do beside ride rides. Still Soarin' and TT have 80min lines for a reason. Apparently people actually do like to go to amusement parks to ride rides. Who woulda thunk it?

 

[Shaden]

It definitely feels better on paper, walking into the park with 3 FP's already in your pocket at first seems awesome. Having to schedule them 60 or 30 days out seems a bit much and takes away a lot of the magic. Especially when you actually get to the park and realize you don't need some of them and need others and the times you picked 2 months ago don't work for you anymore.

IMO the whole thing would be a much better experience for the guest if they treated it like a 1 time express pass. You get 3 line skips per park per day and each ride only once. No scheduling, just show up and choose which lines and when while you are there. Even those that like the appointments could still choose to skip a line at the times they wanted. Everybody wins with that one except Disney though. I'm not sure it would work in 2.5 of the parks, there just isn't enough headliner capacity and not enough secondary to spread crowds around so we have to tour by Appt. Epcot is a little different since there is a lot to do beside ride rides. Still Soarin' and TT have 80min lines for a reason. Apparently people actually do like to go to amusement parks to ride rides. Who woulda thunk it?

That is actually not the worst idea ever .... though it wouldn't provide the crowd management Disney is looking for ... I imagine it would have the impact of essentially riding Soarin and TT as current standby ... as everyone other than RDers would be using their skip a lines there.

 

[Laketravis]

We are way more excited to return with the "measly 3" FP+'s (which will increase in QTY as attractions are built IMO) waiting for us.

Don't bet on it. I think they are already proving to themselves that they didn't have as much yield margin as they thought they did. They would almost have to double the amount of resource choices with meaningful additions just to get to 5.

One only has to look at the ridiculous assortment of FP choices available for a 4th selection by noon to see that.

 

[Davey Jones II]

I keep reading things like this as if they are fact.

Who are you to say this new system does not improve my loyalty to WDW?

We are way more excited to return with the "measly 3" FP+'s (which will increase in QTY as attractions are built IMO) waiting for us.

Why is that so hard for some to believe?

DONT MAKE ME POST THE PIC AGAIN.

Okay, let me rephrase. FP+ does little for customer loyalty. With some exceptions (like Jade, for example), it will not make most people more likely to return to WDW. They're just throwing us a bone with three FPs.

Maybe that system fits your touring plan. But since you post on these boards, you're probably a loyal return customer anyway, Jade.

Is what I'm saying a fact? No, it's my opinion. That's what we do on these boards, we post opinions. But, judging from the large number of posters who hate FP+ and miss Legacy FP, my opinion is backed up pretty well.

This is not a court of law. We don't have to prove our points beyond a reasonable doubt. We can go with an opinion when we have good reason to believe it. I've read countless posts on this subject, and it's pretty clear to me that the majority of Disney's most loyal, repeat customers loved the old FP system. The new one? Tolerated, at best.

Just look at all the "just came back, hate FP+" style threads. I've seen very few threads stating the opposite.

As for the pic...please...no...

 

[Hokie2000]

That's not even factual. First of all, this $2 billion figure is far, far higher than Disney ever expected. I remember some months ago, we were discussing cost overruns when the bill ran up over $1 billion. Now it's up to $2 billion, and counting. They never anticipated spending this much, not even close.

As a result, a lot of money was taken out of entertainment. As I noted above, new projects are coming slower than ever. For the forseeable future, we're getting Avatar Land. That's pretty much it (and who knows whether or not that project has suffered budget cuts). Disneyland Resort has virtually nothing in the pipeline.

Under Iger, Disney was pretty good when it came to refreshing their parks. Then someone sold them this IT bill of goods. And we're all paying the price.

You keep making statements to this effect. We're paying the price, it's at our expense, etc., etc. What, exactly, are you paying for? If you've gone to WDW in the past, you paid for services rendered. They don't owe you anything and you don't owe them anything. If you don't like the changes and don't want to go, guess what, you're not out the money! Cancel your trip and don't book another one, it really is that simple.

 

[IamGroot]

We should rename this thread "ARMCHAIR CEO's, SOUND OFF!!!"


My favorite thing is that the best arguments against this IT upgrade are "but there's bugs and its not perfect" or "we had working systems that didn't need to be replaced".

1. There are always bugs. If nobody ever had a mistake with an ADR made over the phone, then you would have a point. No systems work 100% of the time, especially new systems.

2. If it's not broke don't fix it? That's how Walt felt too........NOT. If we adopted this mindset we wouldn't have computers or medicine or airplanes.

Companies spend money on this stuff to make themselves competitive into the future. This overhaul will pay them dividends for decades as they will have the backbone of a system to work off of.

 

[revdon64]

Yeah, but for $4B we can have both! LOL

 

[Davey Jones II]

It definitely feels better on paper, walking into the park with 3 FP's already in your pocket at first seems awesome. Having to schedule them 60 or 30 days out seems a bit much and takes away a lot of the magic. Especially when you actually get to the park and realize you don't need some of them and need others and the times you picked 2 months ago don't work for you anymore.

IMO the whole thing would be a much better experience for the guest if they treated it like a 1 time express pass. You get 3 line skips per park per day and each ride only once. No scheduling, just show up and choose which lines and when while you are there. Even those that like the appointments could still choose to skip a line at the times they wanted. Everybody wins with that one except Disney though. I'm not sure it would work in 2.5 of the parks, there just isn't enough headliner capacity and not enough secondary to spread crowds around so we have to tour by Appt. Epcot is a little different since there is a lot to do beside ride rides. Still Soarin' and TT have 80min lines for a reason. Apparently people actually do like to go to amusement parks to ride rides. Who woulda thunk it?

Epcot was the park in which we most clearly saw the bizarre distortions caused by FP+. Soarin' has always had a long wait time, but suddenly, Mission Space and TT were at 50 minutes! Say what?? I used to breeze into Mission, my favorite ride at Epcot, in 10-15 minutes or less.

I'm not saying that FP+ ruined our trip. Sometimes, it even helped us get into attractions like TSMM when we arrived in late afternoon. In the past, the Legacy Fast Passes would have been long gone. Of course, I changed our touring plan to fit the new reality of FP+.

Overall, I would say that we had a fun trip despite FP+, not because of it.

 

[Hokie2000]

Any business that fails to reinvest in their business is a doomed one. I hope I don't have to explain that obvious point.

Secondly, any business that does reinvest, but in the process fails to give their customers what they want to buy, is also doomed.

Third, it is particularly important to give your most loyal customers what they want, as per the 80/20 rule. When applied to business, that is a rule of thumb which states that 80% of your revenues come from 20% of your customers.

Now, I'm not saying that Disney is failing to reinvest in park infrastructure. But it's pretty clear that the pace of park reinvestment was greatly slowed (from glacial to sub-glacial) by the cost overruns and logistical/technical difficulties involved in installing the new IT.

Just look at DHS. It's probable that the Studios will be partly shuttered for the rest of the decade. Was that really their plan? In a park already begging for more attractions, they are closing a chunk of the place with nothing but rumors to give us hope for replacements.

Is this how you reward -- and keep -- the loyalty of your customers?

Also, I'm not at all convinced that this new IT was necessary for the company. They already had a reservation system in place, it worked fine, and it was less buggy than the new one. They already had a fast pass system, and it actually improved the loyalty of customers who knew how to use it. FP+ does nothing for customer loyalty; if you think that guests are more likely to come back just to get their measly three reservations per day, then I have some Florida swampland to sell you.

I know some of you worship at the alter of new tech. But how many times has a new gadget flopped miserably and failed to catch on? All the time. Newer is not always better. "Newer" often translates to "does the same thing as the last gadget, but with more bells, whistles, and bugs."

So why did Disney pull the trigger on this new IT? Not because they were "forward thinking". I contend they did it because they thought it would help sell more merch. That, and the data mining. So their priority is the continued Walmartization of WDW. Turn the place into a giant mall, and, oh yeah, here are some rides, too.

All rides exit through the gift shop. But if you put the gift shop ahead of the ride, you are putting the cart in front of the horse. And showing contempt for your customers.

First (obvious) point - it is your opinion that MM+ is not a reinvestment in the business.

Second point - yes, a product is only profitable if people want to buy it. People haven't stopped buying the Disney product (specifically WDW) yet, and there's no real evidence that they will stop because of MM+.

Third - the Pareto Principle is a rule of thumb, not a proven scientific law. Does it apply to WDW? I'm sure there have been studies done, if you find one that deals specifically w/ WDW I'd love to see it. It would be interesting to see if the principle applies.

As for the pace of park construction, I agree that they seem to move pretty slowly. I don't believe this is a new phenomenom, however. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's always been periods of time where nothing much was happening at the Vacation Kingdom.

 

[dfb]

Parsed data from a $2B collection system that indicates her eyes were focused on that shiny doodad + her pulse increased by 25% + her birthday is in < 90 days + proximity sensors indicate she is currently with her mother = 20% off coupon good only for SKU #1277564 to her mother's cell phone?

I love sku 1277564. My all time Disney favorite since childhood! So cute and cudly!!

Dang it, there's that sarcasm again.

Dito!!

 

[Davey Jones II]

You keep making statements to this effect. We're paying the price, it's at our expense, etc., etc. What, exactly, are you paying for? If you've gone to WDW in the past, you paid for services rendered. They don't owe you anything and you don't owe them anything. If you don't like the changes and don't want to go, guess what, you're not out the money! Cancel your trip and don't book another one, it really is that simple.

You don't have to be so literal. I'm not talking about a monetary cost.

To be clear: I feel that we are being short changed by this situation because new projects have been delayed or cancelled altogether. We gave this company our loyalty, these trips mean a lot to many of us, and we would like to continue looking forward to wonderful trips in the future.

Is that such an unreasonable way to think and feel? If you want to think it is, fine. But it doesn't change the perception of many who feel that they have been loyal, repeat customers who have given this company lots of money, helping them build their empire, only to have them pull the rug out from under us.

Like it or not, repeat customers have that loyalty because they are emotionally invested in the product. A company can't have it both ways; they can't reap the benefits of customer loyalty, and then disappoint the expectations of those people.

If I'm not happy, I should just take my vacation dollar elsewhere, you say. Why am I and others being given a "heads you lose, tails you lose" choice? People are naturally upset when given two unpalatable options.

Crappy option #1: Keep paying higher and higher prices for a diminished experience.
Crappy option #2: Give up on your favorite vacation destination, and go somewhere you won't like as much.

Honestly, I hope they prove me wrong. I hope they can install their pet IT system and still improve capacity in their parks. I hope I won't give up on theme parks because they've become a raw deal. To me, sitting and frying on a beach somewhere is not a vacation.

 

[MrKnight]

True, but I think you missed my metaphor. The theme park customers want meat but Disney's monumental effort is to distribute hummus.

Even more simplistic: "You invested $2B into the parks? Awesome! When can I start riding?"

Just because a company throws massive amounts of resources into a forward thinking, cost minimizing, revenue enhancing, technological marvel doesn't mean it was the best thing to do and their customers will automatically accept it based on those merits alone.

"Where's the BEEF?"

This!

 

[Davey Jones II]

We should rename this thread "ARMCHAIR CEO's, SOUND OFF!!!"


My favorite thing is that the best arguments against this IT upgrade are "but there's bugs and its not perfect" or "we had working systems that didn't need to be replaced".

1. There are always bugs. If nobody ever had a mistake with an ADR made over the phone, then you would have a point. No systems work 100% of the time, especially new systems.

2. If it's not broke don't fix it? That's how Walt felt too........NOT. If we adopted this mindset we wouldn't have computers or medicine or airplanes.

Companies spend money on this stuff to make themselves competitive into the future. This overhaul will pay them dividends for decades as they will have the backbone of a system to work off of.

Walt was all about continual improvement and maximizing the potential of the parks. I can't imagine him putting IT bells and whistles ahead of that goal.

Current management did. They've got endlessly shuttered pavilions at Epcot, and too few rides at DHS. These issues have been festering for years and years. So what was their top priority? Replacing a reservation system that didn't need replacing.

Computers, medicine or airplanes? Oh, give me a break. We're talking about gadget #2 that basically does the same thing as gadget #1.

 

[SCDisneyfanatic]

Jade1, I'm with you...I've been a LOYAL Disney customer since 1976...probably before some of these posters were even born. I personally love the idea of FP+...it allows us to do other things in the morning besides rush to the park of the day for RD and a continuous trek criss crossing the park to get FP- tickets OR show up later in the day and have little chance at any FP- and spend lots of time waiting in lines. We leave in 3 days for Disney and I'm pretty pumped that I can play golf on Tuesday morning and still go to a park in the afternoon at do 3 attractions of my choice with little wait. That's awesome!! All my years going to WDW for a vaction, I could never understand the idea that it was only successful if I did lots of rides over and over to get as much done as I could. What kind of vacation is that? And what evidence is there that more people want to rush around and ride rides than relax and have a chance to do a few things they really want to do? It's all a Journey into Someone's Imagination that they think everyone else thinks like them...because 1 tenth of 1 percent of Disney guests have posted a negative comment about FP+ on some site

 

[Hokie2000]

You don't have to be so literal. I'm not talking about a monetary cost.

To be clear: I feel that we are being short changed by this situation because new projects have been delayed or cancelled altogether. We gave this company our loyalty, these trips mean a lot to many of us, and we would like to continue looking forward to wonderful trips in the future.

Is that such an unreasonable way to think and feel? If you want to think it is, fine. But it doesn't change the perception of many who feel that they have been loyal, repeat customers who have given this company lots of money, helping them build their empire, only to have them pull the rug out from under us.

Like it or not, repeat customers have that loyalty because they are emotionally invested in the product. A company can't have it both ways; they can't reap the benefits of customer loyalty, and then disappoint the expectations of those people.

If I'm not happy, I should just take my vacation dollar elsewhere, you say. Why am I and others being given a "heads you lose, tails you lose" choice? People are naturally upset when given two unpalatable choices.

Crappy choice #1: Keep paying higher and higher prices for a diminished experience.
Crappy choice #2: Give up on your favorite vacation destination, and go somewhere you won't like as much.

Honestly, I hope they prove me wrong. I hope they can install their pet IT system and still improve capacity in their parks. I hope I won't give up on theme parks because they've become a raw deal. To me, sitting and frying on a beach somewhere is not a vacation.

First of all, this whole thread is about money.

I understand your disappointment, but the feeling of being owed something in the future is .

And nobody just gives Disney money. Unless they started an internet fundraising account that I'm not aware of. We agree to pay a certain price for the services/products that they provide. While we're there, not as some kind of future investment in the parks. You can't have it both ways - you can't say that you've had such wonderful vacations and it's your favorite place, then turn around and say they owe you something because you spent a lot of time and money there. They earned your money. It's up to you to decide whether they will continue to earn it.

It's reasonable to be sad, bitter, disappointed, etc. IMO it is unreasonable to think that Disney is in your debt.

 

[Davey Jones II]

First of all, this whole thread is about money.

I understand your disappointment, but the feeling of being owed something in the future is .

And nobody just gives Disney money. Unless they started an internet fundraising account that I'm not aware of. We agree to pay a certain price for the services/products that they provide. While we're there, not as some kind of future investment in the parks. You can't have it both ways - you can't say that you've had such wonderful vacations and it's your favorite place, then turn around and say they owe you something because you spent a lot of time and money there. They earned your money. It's up to you to decide whether they will continue to earn it.

It's reasonable to be sad, bitter, disappointed, etc. IMO it is unreasonable to think that Disney is in your debt.

Emotions aside...

The parks are packed. FP+ has done little or nothing to improve capacity. Disney is raking in outrageous profits. Bottom line: I'm saying that they should use a chunk of those profits to improve real capacity, so that all these guests making them richer than King Croesus won't have to wait in endless lines most of the time (except when they have an FP+ reservation).

Now, that's unreasonable?

 

[Davey Jones II]

Jade1, I'm with you...I've been a LOYAL Disney customer since 1976...probably before some of these posters were even born. I personally love the idea of FP+...it allows us to do other things in the morning besides rush to the park of the day for RD and a continuous trek criss crossing the park to get FP- tickets OR show up later in the day and have little chance at any FP- and spend lots of time waiting in lines. We leave in 3 days for Disney and I'm pretty pumped that I can play golf on Tuesday morning and still go to a park in the afternoon at do 3 attractions of my choice with little wait. That's awesome!! All my years going to WDW for a vaction, I could never understand the idea that it was only successful if I did lots of rides over and over to get as much done as I could. What kind of vacation is that? And what evidence is there that more people want to rush around and ride rides than relax and have a chance to do a few things they really want to do? It's all a Journey into Someone's Imagination that they think everyone else thinks like them...because 1 tenth of 1 percent of Disney guests have posted a negative comment about FP+ on some site

I don't buy the myth that what we say on message boards is somehow irrelevant. We may not represent the average Disney guest, but we do represent the most loyal, repeat customers. In other words, Disney's core clientele, the ones who will come back and are not just making a "once in a lifetime" or "once every ten years" pilgrimage to the mecca of theme parks.

I've met countless people who tell me they went to WDW 10/15/20 years ago, and have no intention of going back because they've "been there, done that." Those aren't the people who keep Disney afloat; we are.