Fool on the Hill: You Can't Cheat Quality

[DVC-Landbaron]

LOL gcurling!! Both you and YoHo specifically (and many others) did cross my mind as I wrote. And to be honest I didn't know what car you belonged in. And to be painfully honest, and don't tell thedscoop, but I kind of thought you two in particular would weaken my argument. I think that out of our entire group you two probably HAVE been influenced by our dialogues. Probably the more opened minded among us. Not hardheaded like the opposition or absolutely right like the people in our car! (that one deserved two winks!!)

Anyway I want to take a ride in your car once in while though.

I remain firmly in the "WDW still gets lots of my money" camp, though.

Remember. Only four weeks until my two week WDW extravaganza!! Talk about a lot of money!!!! It ain't 42 nights, but then again, I don't live in Florida!!!

 

[HBK]

I propose that Disney hasn't changed that much, rather your kids may have.

Gcurling....you're right....the parks haven't changed. That's the problem. The teenagers who are a "niche" consumer group now, are going to be the parents who take their "niche" children to the parks tomorrow.

If today's children develop a fondness for IOA, Bush, Six Flags, et al.....Disney's a distant memory. And it will be even harder for them to gain back the brand loyalty and trust at that point.

Once someone's out the door, they're gone. And the effect is far more reaching than most of us can comprehend.

I don't advocate or desire a complaint free world. I just believe that there would have been just as many HBK's complaining about Walt's lack of land planning when he built Disneyland as there are today complaining about the lack of vision in park planning.

I disagree with that statement. Walt's company didn't approach it's potential customers with a blatant intent of getting as much money from them as possible. Walt's business philosophies made his company different than others....so different that his company has BBs on the Internet discussing it. How many Kodak or Motorola BBs do you think there are on the net? Do you think Energizer has a "fan Club" who discuss the company's upcoming products?

 

[All Aboard]

Date and time Scoop, that's all I need. I can be there in 3.5 hours. I got first round.

 

[ww52]

gcurling:

42 nights in one year! Almost a month and a half at WDW! Speaking as someone who has not been back since 1998 (and wishes every day that we were planning another trip) I truly am envious.

But tying this in with the issue of quality - and with all due respect - I am of the opinion that Disney ought to be somewhat curious as to what families like mine think (who went four times in five years and then stopped) and more importantly what the next generation of consumers think. People who spend a great deal of time there are more than fans - and far from typical. It's obviously a part of your life and it would probably take an enormous decline before you'd stop going.

 

[Another Voice]

If you really want a debate, let’s have it Avalon Cove so we can gaze at the magic of Paradise Pier (and the power lines).

Disney has always been under more intense inspection that almost all other companies. And probably rightly so – Disney define a large chunk of American culture. What’s happening today is nothing compared to either the thirties or the sixties when Disney was routinely labeled as Evil. Being called “creativity fatigued” is nothing like being called “the white males’ capitalist tool to oppress The People by indoctrinating children with racist, sexist, classist tales from a dead Anglo ruling class” (the 1960’s were really fun). I don’t think the internet has changed anything – it’s a new communication media, but the content is still the same. E-mails or letters to Public Relations, chat rooms or meeting down at the Elks Ledge. It’s the same result.

 

[cindyfan]

Re: Teenagers not liking Disney

I grew up with Disney.....All those movies like "Herbie" etc..... actually Mary Poppins was the very first movie I remember seeing at the theatre. LOVED Disney as a child.....watched Wonderful..... every Sunday night!
Then I hit those "evil" years (as I like to refer to them, since my child was a teenager). Anyway once I passed those years, By age 20 I faithfully returned to loving Disney again
This is the same story with my daughter who is now 25. LOVED Disney as a child. Her first trip to WDW was at the age of 7. But then she entered the "evil" years of being a teenager. When she was 13 and we went to WDW, she played the "bored" teenager. It just wasn't "cool" to like Disney......Disney was "family" stuff, and Mickey Mouse...... But I did catch her smiling ear to ear as we watch the electical parade!!! She denied it!
Anyway, since finishing college she has been there twice. Had her Honeymoon on the Disney Cruise and is planning her next trip. she now teaches Jr High (oh those evil years! rather ironic!! ) and proudly displays anything Disney at school!!!!

The point I am making is that you can't base anything on what teenagers want or like. Because it is that "age" thing. Disney is not "cool" at that age.

Disney is FAMILY and it will always have that special place in the family life.

 

[DisneyFanGuy]

Well my family is turned off. Not just the kids, but my wife and I. We constantly discuss the fact that if we are a typical family (Who knows?) then Disney is miss-reading their market.

All of us love the "Old Disney". By that I mean the Haunted Mansion, Castles in the moonlight, fireworks, many of the EPCOT originals, etc. I guess if you put a timeline on it, almost anything built before 1990. The last "Old Disney" kind of attraction that I can think of is Splash Mountain. Though my kids complain about Its a Small World, they "get it" if that makes any sense. We always all come off it smiling and laughing.

We love some of the "Middle Disney" E tickets. Indy in DL, TOT, etc. The last really creative "E" ticket that I can think of is TOT. We all race to that attraction.

Anything that has been built in the last three years is very "iffy" though. We all thought Kali was lame, and in general liked only three attactions in the entire AK. My family got bored after 1/2 day. We were aghast at JIYI. We also noticed for the first time (this past year) that the parks had dropped in service and cleanliness. I could go on, but the point is that my kids liked the old, most of the middle, and little of the new. I think that is telling. Disney is assuming that the younger set will stick around if they do nada to attract them. I think that is a mistake.

 

[space42]

I agree 100% with Disneyfanguy.

I too think the last GREAT Disney attraction (in the US)was Splash Mountain. I hope Disney returns to building quality E-Ticket attractions like this again sometime soon. However, I do not see anything that makes me think they are going to. That is unless you want to travel to Tokyo and go to DisneySea

Instead we get a carnival at Animal Kingdom, a spinner at MK, Thrill rides to replace ATTRACTIONS at EPCOT, and a BAH at the Studios. ICK!

 

[JeffH]

30 years ago, Walt was running out of ideas and was sitting on the success of Disneyland and his animated classics. We saw very few movies out of Disney Studios, (Jungle Book being the last of Walt's work), and all Walt could gave us was a clone of Disneyland (- the Matterhorn) in the form of the Magic Kingdom. It opened with a handful of rides, NO roller coasters or thrill rides of any sort. Most attractions were dark rides of one sort or another, with Dumbo and the Carrosel being the center of it all. They E attractions of the time were Haunted Mansion, 20K Leagues, Jungle Cruise and Country Bears. Entertainment was lip-synced and 'artificial'. And Walt left us with plans for a bunch of themed resort hotels (a ratio of 6 hotels/campgrounds to 1 theme park) and basically what is now Celebration. The stores to attraction ratio heavily favored the stores. The themed resort hotels were dropped and all we were left with was the MK. A new attraction showed up every year or 2 or 3 and it SLOWLY grew to what it is today, after 30 years. This sounds pretty familiar to me, IN FACT IT SOUND JUST LIKE MOST OF THE COMPLAINTS I READ RIGHT HERE?!?!...
Eisner came on board and as I remember, THEN came Splash and the Little Mermaid and a while afterwards Touchtone was developed followed by several other production companies that release an amazing number of excellent entertaining films, which continue today. The animation department was re-energized and has created masterpieces/classics since (and I'm sorry, but box-office results do not determine when a film is a masterpiece/classic. As far as I'm concerned, the only reason the Lion King did so well at the box office, was because it didn't offend anyone and had a basic generic message).
Eisner's 1st theme park attempt at WDW was Disney Studios, and although it was pretty weak when it opened, it has become one of the best theme parks I've ever experienced. Eisner's 2nd theme park at WDW (not including the water parks which are considered among the best in the country), AK, is a masterpiece in the works.
What really disturbs me, is that Disney Studios puts a great deal of money into a magnificent film (Pearl Harbor), brings in the best talent, with little hope of recouping the investment in the short term (ie: it isn't the money that matters but the 'investment' in the product), created an 'epic' which did quite well for a 'historic' film, and created a tremendous awareness of WWII during Memorial Day (the WWII specials ran for about 2 weeks as a direct result of the film), yet all I could hear from the Internet 'experts' was what a bomb it was.
WDW is alive with live entertainment from simple street acts to Broadway 'style' shows, well themed rides, as well as a nice compliment of well themed 'thrill' rides. WDW pays their cast members better than any other theme park pays their help and their benifits are better.
Tasha and I are well on our way of beating our record of days at WDW this year, with probably 50 days there. We just got back from yet another weekend at WDW, and again had a better time than ever. In fact we have spent almost (-1) every weekend at WDW since Easter (over 22 days), and plan to go back our next 2.
There is so much to do, and the quality is so good that we enjoy it over and over again, and there is so many special things that happen that it's hard to not have a special time each trip.
Better off several decades ago, far from it! Several decades (3) ago the MK was a shell of the clone of what it was, with fireworks being the only night time entertainment, not a thrill ride to be seen and nothing new in the future. Funny thing is, the MK is still there, and those of you who think those were the days, can still go to the MK and stay at the Polonesian, and simply not go to Epcot, DS, AK, or any other of the multitude of experiences offered by DD and the resort hotes.

 

[Captain Crook]

Very good post! Thanks for efficiently stating things I think about! MK was nothing groudbreaking at inception and for years to come. But little by little, brick by brick & step by step it has evolved as has MGM & I still have little doubt that AK will follow suit. Therefore who's to say that DCA won't be quite fanciful in 8 or 10 years as well?

As for IOA, my 12 year old daughter just went (from tennis camp) and said Spiderman was truly great, the coaster were very good but the theming was just weird, the park wasn't too clean and the employees ("every one" she said) were rude. So, since I don't like big coasters, I'll stick with Disney and hope they outdue Spiderman with their next effort.

For thedscoop, this may not make you feel any better but the Pirate & I and our daughters are on track for another 40 day year ourselves!

 

[hopemax]

), and all Walt could gave us was a clone of Disneyland (- the Matterhorn) in the form of the Magic Kingdom.

Ummm....this is not sitting well with me. From what I've read Walt didn't want to build a Disneyland clone. But like we've talked about in another thread, sometimes business neccessity outweighs personal desires. Florida wanted a Disneyland clone. Walt wanted the Reedy Creek Improvement District and freedom to do what he wanted. In order to get that, he gave Florida the Disneyland clone.

And Walt didn't really give us the clone anyway, Roy did. We don't know what Walt would have built, and what he would have done to change up the lineup. No rollercoasters or thrill rides in 1971 doesn't seem like that big of a problem. DL only had 1 , Magic Mountain's thrill rides were the Log Jammer and Jet Stream, they got a second coaster in 1973. It doesn't seem that the MK was that far behind the curve?

 

[johare]

I guess everyone has a different opinion on the current state of Disney. I don't quite have the 'rose colored glasses' view that many recent posters seem to have.

I realize and accept that parks need time to grow and mature much like MK did, however there is NO EXCUSE for peeling paint, burnt out light bulbs, trash not being picked up promptly, 45+ minute waits for buses, cheap carnival type rides and the general 'bad attitude' Disney seems to have lately. Before they even think of adding another E-Ticket ride they need to worry about getting the parks back to the quality levels that Disney used to be known for.

I can't make excuses for their recent films either. Epic or not, Pearl Harbor sucked. The special effects were cool for about 30 minutes but other than that the movie was the most uncreative, uninspired thing I've seen in a long time. I haven't seen Atlantis yet, but friends have and even though they were Disney fans, they were disappointed with it...and they loved Shrek. And I'm sorry, but box office results DO determine when a movie is a classic/masterpiece.

 

[All Aboard]

Johare, you haven't seen Atlantis? Weren't you just calling it a "crappy" movie a couple of days ago??

Looks like we've got a couple of camps of WDW detractors going now. Group 1: Disney used to build great attractions, now they are replacing them with thrill rides. And, Group 2: I'm going to IOA because they really know how to thrill ya.

Burned out light bulbs, peeling paint? I hear it, but I don't see it. And, yes, I AM looking, each and every time I go. And correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Landbaron dismiss most of those things in his last "state of the parks" report.

Here is a quote from an old college buddy of mine who recently took his family to WDW for the first time. Quite honestly, I didn't figure him for a "magic" type of guy. But, upon return, here is what he wrote me:

Do you know of any resources to read about how Disney operates the park? It struck me that there was not a single light bulb out, or a broken animatronic figure, or even a blade of grass that wasn't cut. And yet, I never saw a single maintenance person. I'd love to know how they do it.

After receiving his email, I first told him that there was a band of folks out there that sure didn't see it the way he did. I directed him to wdwblues as an example, he wrote back:

Feel free to cut and paste my impressions. I looked briefly at wdwblues - what a bunch of jerks! I don't understand the blind animus toward corporations, particularly Disney, that seems to motivate these people. Disney World is 1000 times cleaner, nicer, and better operated than any entertainment complex in the world.

I completely agree.

 

[johare]

thedscoop,

If box office results don't determine what makes a movie a classic/masterpiece who does? Is there an elite panal of people who are somehow more qualified then the general public to bestow the title of classic upon a movie? There are probably a few exceptions (ie, Wizard of Oz) but I think most movies that would be refered to as a 'masterpiece' have done well at the box office.

gcurling,

Yes, I did refer to Atlantis is crappy and I based that on what I heard from my neighbors and friends at work. The best review I got of it was "it's ok...a few funny spots but it wasn't really that great". Sorry if that was somehow misleading.

There are groups of WDW detractors here, but there are also plenty of people who are so blinded with pixie dust that they just can't see the problems that the parks are having lately. I've seen burnt out bulbs. I've seen peeling paint and rusty fixtures. I've seen good attractions replaced with crap or just closed. The fact that you "completely agree" with a quote which states that "Disney is 1000 times cleaner, nicer and better operated than ANY other entertainment complex" shows just how blind you are to reality when it comes to Disney. You really think Disney is 1000 times cleaner? That means for every single piece of trash I see on the ground at Disney I'll find 1000 pieces of trash at USF/IOA. For every burnt out light bulb at WDW I'll find 1000 at USF/IOA? Ridiculous. How about 1000 times nicer? Every review I've read of IOA puts it right on par with Disney parks as far as theming and attractions go, yet you and your misguided friend (if he/she even really exists) feel Disney is still 1000 times nicer.

 

[Captain Crook]

Kind of funny that as I said earlier, my "misguided" and actually existing 12 year old daughter said the same thing about cleanliness as gcurlings friend when comparing IOA to WDW...And don't forget the CM's vs. employees's!

If you've read the "Animation Vs. Walt" thread that I started you can clearly see that at least 5 of Walt Disney's now Classic and (IMO great) movies were box office fiasco's. The nature of the reasons for their failure is irrelevent, but they failed at the box office and yet the cream has still risen to the top...Which leads to what I think determines "Classic" status in the end, that being all of us. What movies stand the test of time? Jurrasic Park was huge, will it stand up? Probably not, but box office receipts don't a classic make...

 

[All Aboard]

Johare, I am feeling somewhat "attacked" by the tone of your post.

First, Jerry is very much a real person, and a great guy to boot. Second, his 1000x reference is obviously not literal. Third, thanks for telling me that I'm blind. I didn't realize it. I've been going to WDW since the mid-1970's. I've been during all phases of development. There are very few attractions, resorts, restaurants, or shops that I didn't see being built. I'm not happy with JIYI nor am I [that] happy with 20k lagoon sitting empty for several years. The latter doesn't bother me too much, though. I'm not too happy with the Dinoland concept, but I bet my daughter will enjoy the heck out of it. Am I troubled that the Explorer Canoes are no longer, or that I can no longer ride on Mike Fink's Keelboat or the Swan Boats, not really. So many other great attractions have come along that I have no reason to miss those. And no, I don't see pervasive maintenance problems, I am not blind, I see quite well. And I do spend an enormous amount of time at WDW, and I do look for these things. And yes, I've been to Universal Orlando several times. It's a nice place, but it doesn't have WDW beat in any arena other than high speed, body twisting, gut wrenching experiences, in my opinion. Those are fun, but don't possess the Magic of WDW. Magic that has not diminished because World of Motion was replaced by Test Track and Mission:Space is replacing Horizons. Those changes were anticipated from Day 1 at Epcot. Future World attractions are supposed to change, that's the nature of the park. The reason they are changing to thrill attractions is in response to exit interviews.

Nearly all of the "old school" attractions still exist at WDW. You can still experience 90+% of what you could in the late 1970's. It's all still there and in the same great presence as always.

No, I'm not blind. I see the pure delight on the face of my daughter every time we are there. And nothing brings joy to my heart more than that.

And if you think I'm alone, spend a little time on the trip reports board, the dvc board, or the community board. There are millions who agree with me, Pirate, Duck, scoop, jeffH, et al.

 

[johare]

It's not box office receipts alone that make a classic, however they do play a BIG part in it. Look at this site: http://www.the-movie-times.com/thrsdir/Top10everad.html

...and tell me which of these do not deserve to be refered to as classics? What movies that you feel are classics are missing from this list?

I do not dislike WDW...it is still a wonderful place to go for a vacation, but I do feel that they have really slipped lately on quality and maintenance of the parks. I guess people will see what they want though. Last time I was at AK (about a year ago) I was in the queue for the safari ride and there were trash cans which were overflowing on to the ground below. I went to MK with some friends from up north for Mickey's Very Merry Christmas Party last December and they even commented about the little bits of trash on the ground here and there that they never saw on previous trips. As far as cleanliness, yes, your 12 year old daughter is also misguided if she (or anyone) thinks that WDW is 1000 times cleaner than IOA. I might agree that WDW is VERY slightly cleaner than the Universal parks, but it's definately not twice as clean and to make or agree with a comment like "WDW is 1000 TIMES cleaner and nicer" is just ridiculous.

 

[Sarangel]

OK, first of all, Johare: Kindly refrain from questioning people's truthfulness on the boards, your post in response to gcurling is not in the spirit of this board. Reasoned debate is allowed, but this sort of spitefulness is not appropriate.

Secondly, it seems like there's been a spate of posts that aren't respectful of other people's opinions lately. I'd like to encourage all posters to realize that other poster's opinions are valid, even if you don't agree with them. Johare thinks Atlantis wasn't a good film (even though s/he hasn't seen it), I happen to disagree. If we want to debate plot, storyline, cinematography, and effects, that's OK. If it goes beyond that, the moderators will have to step in and edit or delete posts.

Lrodk & I both try to let the discussions have free reign, since that's what we're all here for, but we will step in more often if this sort of thing keeps up.

Sarangel

 

[Sarangel]

And, now, the post I meant to post before I got sidetracked by my moderator duties:

I too think the last GREAT Disney attraction (in the US)was Splash Mountain.

I hate to keep bringing this up, but California Soarin' is amazing (it's still getting applause at the end of the ride, as recently as last weekend). I know it's out here in California, but that doesn't mean that they aren't building really amazing rides, just that they are few and far between.

Sarangel

 

[johare]

gcurling,

Sorry if you feel "attacked", but I often feel that way too just because I don't look through the same 'rose colored glasses' as many of the posters here. I realize that the "1000 times" thing was an exaggerated, but you did say that you "completely agreed" with the comment. FYI: just like you didn't mean the "1000 times" post to be taken literally, neither did I mean for comments like "blinded by pixie dust" or "blind to reality" to infer that a person was actually blind.

I went to the MK once in the early 70's and have been going regularly since I moved to the Orlando area in 1990. With few exceptions (Splash, ToT and maybe Test Track) they really haven't added anything over the past 10 years which impresses me. I've also seen quality, cleanliness and attention to detail greatly diminish over the past 10 years. I still think WDW is a great place and would find it hard to not have a great time there, but I think they could do MUCH better and I think their customers deserve better. As for IOA, we (myself, wife and 7 and 4 year old sons) feel that it is every bit the equal to Disney and every bit as magical. You are right that Universal doesn't have the "Magic of WDW" and that's a good thing...Universal has the "Magic of Universal" which is every bit as special to some people as your disney magic is to others. Universal/IOA is NOT just about "high speed, body twisting, gut wrenching experiences", but if people are closed minded and too full of disney's pixie dust they just might miss that fact.

As for your "millions who agree" with you, let see...you mention Pirate, Duck, scoop, jeffH....only 1,999,996 more to go! btw: Go check out the Universal Forums and you'll find people who find Universal every bit as magical as WDW.