FLL airport - Shooting today at 1 pm - 9 wounded

You have been trying to twist the law to suit a very particular bigotry. The baker has no legal standing to refuse to decorate a cake with 2 men or 2 women, just as he/she has no legal standing to refuse service to a homosexual couple. In deference to those on this thread who do not like the direction it has veered, I will no longer respond to you any further on this issue, no matter what you post in response. Be assured that my lack of response will be, in no way, a tacit agreement of bigotry.

ETA: I won't respond to any other poster's defense of bigotry, not just the person I quoted.

In no way, shape, or form have I advocated for bigotry. I advocate for rights, which like it or not belong to all of us, bigots included. Don't think for 2 seconds that because I would fight (to the death, if necessary) for someone's rights automatically means I agree with them. It doesn't.
 
Agreed. Although the Cake thing was completely off topic. People on both sides of the discussion were be very civil. Disagree. Sure. But they were respecting each other. We need more of that in this country. Not less.
I Agree, it's off topic but it's a civil conversation. I said early on in this thread that I think this country is split, people on both sides of issues are digging their heels in. I would think the opportunity to talk would be welcome.
 
You can't compare a baker who refuses a specific customization to all customers to a doctor who refuses a standard service to specific patients.

Sure I can. Principle is the same.

No, I didn't say the baker can refuse to sell the cake. I believe the baker should be afforded the right to refuse to decorate in a specific way. That's not twisting anything.

But that is the service they are selling. Think of like like a hairdresser, they don't say here are the 4 styles I cut pick one, they ask how you would like your hair and do it that way.
They can cut (or in the case or a cake decorator decorate) in millions of ways using the same techniques and tools they have.

However, there is right of a business to set a limit for what it may or may not agree to do where it would specifically be participating in a message that it finds offensive

Except it's not allowed to find being gay offensive. That's the point of the anti discrimination law.

Once again, if the bakery hasn't decorated a cake in the specific manner that a customer requests, and the specific design is not specified in their services, the bakery is under no legal obligation to fulfill that request. You don't walk into a business and demand that a business do something that it has never done before just because you want it. That's honestly one of the silliest things I've ever heard.

Except again you are missing the point. People that make custom cakes for events like weddings don't have a set menu of options, each cake is custom. Flavour, number of layers, colours and decoration are all customised to the couple. The figures are either ordered or if being made with gum paste then created to match the couple, size, skin colour, hair colour even things like glasses and freckles are added (or optioned in the case of premade ones).
To say that you can do all those options but you won't put two grooms together is discrimination. You can do it, this isn't something that you don't make and are now being asked to make, you are just refusing this particular option based on your bigoted beliefs.
 

Sure I can. Principle is the same.



But that is the service they are selling. Think of like like a hairdresser, they don't say here are the 4 styles I cut pick one, they ask how you would like your hair and do it that way.
They can cut (or in the case or a cake decorator decorate) in millions of ways using the same techniques and tools they have.



Except it's not allowed to find being gay offensive. That's the point of the anti discrimination law.



Except again you are missing the point. People that make custom cakes for events like weddings don't have a set menu of options, each cake is custom. Flavour, number of layers, colours and decoration are all customised to the couple. The figures are either ordered or if being made with gum paste then created to match the couple, size, skin colour, hair colour even things like glasses and freckles are added (or optioned in the case of premade ones).
To say that you can do all those options but you won't put two grooms together is discrimination. You can do it, this isn't something that you don't make and are now being asked to make, you are just refusing this particular option based on your bigoted beliefs.
So who decides which beliefs are bigoted? You? Because their are numerous religions that hold certain beliefs I'm sure you consider bigoted. And last I checked their rights are also suppose to be protected.
 
Except it's not allowed to find being gay offensive. That's the point of the anti discrimination law.

I'm discussing American and/or Canadian anti discrimination laws. Such laws are implemented at the state or local level. The current federal law doesn't cover LGBT status. None these state or local laws make it illegal to find being gay offensive. I haven't heard of a successful prosecution of a business for refusal to create a message that they found offensive. They do make it illegal to deny services/goods or give disparate treatment based on a customer being in a protected class. They don't force businesses to create messages that they don't agree with.
 
So who decides which beliefs are bigoted? You? Because their are numerous religions that hold certain beliefs I'm sure you consider bigoted. And last I checked their rights are also suppose to be protected.

The law. You are entitled to your religious views. You are not entities to impose your religious views on anyone else.
In the business/workplace that means while you may not agree with same sex marriage you may not discriminate by declining service based on your views.
Just because your beliefs are based on your religion doesn't make them anymore valid than any other random beliefs. Again would you be happy with a white supremacist using their beliefs as a reason for declining to serve African Americans?
 
The law. You are entitled to your religious views. You are not entities to impose your religious views on anyone else.
In the business/workplace that means while you may not agree with same sex marriage you may not discriminate by declining service based on your views.
Just because your beliefs are based on your religion doesn't make them anymore valid than any other random beliefs. Again would you be happy with a white supremacist using their beliefs as a reason for declining to serve African Americans?
Personally I'd just move on., if you don't want to serve me I certainly wouldn't want to eat what your going to serve me. The problem I have is some people refuse to do this, their-by forcing someone, the business owner, to do something against their beliefs. Like it or not but that's what it is, but both sets of people have rights.
 
The law. You are entitled to your religious views. You are not entities to impose your religious views on anyone else.
In the business/workplace that means while you may not agree with same sex marriage you may not discriminate by declining service based on your views.
Just because your beliefs are based on your religion doesn't make them anymore valid than any other random beliefs. Again would you be happy with a white supremacist using their beliefs as a reason for declining to serve African Americans?

Who is talking about declining service? I don't see anyone particularly advocating that. However, there are certain limits. Most state laws find it totally unacceptable to totally decline service or treat a customer poorly, like the wedding cake situations mentioned. The plaintiffs in those cases didn't get to the point where it got beyond that.

We also have certain laws allowing for employees to be allowed to be given reasonable accommodation of their religious beliefs. The one case I can think of was a couple of Muslim delivery drivers who successfully sued an employer for not accommodating their wish to not deliver alcohol.
 
Really not much info released this weekend. ...extremely quiet.
 
Except again you are missing the point. People that make custom cakes for events like weddings don't have a set menu of options, each cake is custom. Flavour, number of layers, colours and decoration are all customised to the couple. The figures are either ordered or if being made with gum paste then created to match the couple, size, skin colour, hair colour even things like glasses and freckles are added (or optioned in the case of premade ones).
To say that you can do all those options but you won't put two grooms together is discrimination. You can do it, this isn't something that you don't make and are now being asked to make, you are just refusing this particular option based on your bigoted beliefs.

What you're saying here has already been said 5 or 6x and I've disagreed each time it has been said because it is flat out wrong. My opinion hasn't changed at all. A custom baker is under no obligation to bake your request. They can't deny you a cake but they don't have to do make the design that you tell them to. Heck, I've asked for certain decorations/designs before on cakes/pastries and I was told, "Sorry sir we don't do that." I'm part Puerto Rican so I guess what you're saying is I should have hired an ACLU attorney to fight for me.
 
What you're saying here has already been said 5 or 6x and I've disagreed each time it has been said because it is flat out wrong. My opinion hasn't changed at all. A custom baker is under no obligation to bake your request. They can't deny you a cake but they don't have to do make the design that you tell them to. Heck, I've asked for certain decorations/designs before on cakes/pastries and I was told, "Sorry sir we don't do that." I'm part Puerto Rican so I guess what you're saying is I should have hired an ACLU attorney to fight for me.

And even after 5 or 6 times you still can't understand that a baker doesn't get to say "we don't put two grooms on a cake" when they will put a bride and a groom on a cake.
That is seperate from saying we don't make gunpaste figures at all.
See he difference? In the second case the bakery is saying this is a skill we don't have, we don't make figurines for anyone. In the first case they are saying "we will not make figurines for you because of our belief" and time and time again I have ask d and you have not answered: do you feel the same if it was a white supremacist baker refusing to make figurines for African American couple? Would you still feel that we have to respect the bakers beliefs? And respect the right to refuse to offer the same service they would for a Caucasian customer? And if you don't see it as the same thing explain how it is that you see it as a different example.
 
And even after 5 or 6 times you still can't understand that a baker doesn't get to say "we don't put two grooms on a cake" when they will put a bride and a groom on a cake.
That is seperate from saying we don't make gunpaste figures at all.
See he difference? In the second case the bakery is saying this is a skill we don't have, we don't make figurines for anyone. In the first case they are saying "we will not make figurines for you because of our belief" and time and time again I have ask d and you have not answered: do you feel the same if it was a white supremacist baker refusing to make figurines for African American couple? Would you still feel that we have to respect the bakers beliefs? And respect the right to refuse to offer the same service they would for a Caucasian customer? And if you don't see it as the same thing explain how it is that you see it as a different example.
Yes I would. Rights aren't their to protect a popular opinion but whenever it's an unpopular idea is just as important.
 
Instead of this arguing, I suggest everyone of us stop for a moment and think of or pray for the victims and their families today..... Please.
 
I was in the airport yesterday for the initial shooting incident as well as the following incident not being talked about in the media. 14 of us had just returned from a cruise. We split off from my little sister who was going to fly to Tampa to be with her boyfriend and the rest of us were in Terminal three to fly to Buffalo.
I looked out the window and saw helicopters hovering in place, which prompted us to look at the tv monitor and see that there was a shooting occurring in the airport. Things were calm, people gradually gravitated to the tvs but no announcemnbets were made. While saddened and shocked we saw that the shooter was in custody, and that they felt it was a single incident.
It was at least a few hours later (we were really early for our flight) and my son was napping on my husband, my family were all sitting in a cluster of chairs. I was standing and chatting with them with my back to hallway (we were at the end of the terminal).
I heard the screams first. Turned to see people running frantically towards us, screaming there was a shooter and to get down. I screamed to my husband to put our son on the floor. We went as far under the seat benches as we could and tried to lay on top of the kids. Very briefly after I told my husband I wanted to run. He told us to wait and stood to see if we could, he yelled GO NOW and we along with many other screaming and crying people ran to the door. I pulled a teen girl with us who was screaming for her mom thinking she needed to get out. She did find her mom.
It was at the bottom of the stairs that my mom fell and sprained her ankle. I heard someone screaming and it was my husband picking up my sister in law to keep her from going back up the stairs. Her husband (my brother) was inside with the baby and they had been in the bathroom. We did not find or hear from them for at least 30 minutes. We called my sister in Terminal two. The same thing was simulataneously occurring in her terminal and I was telling her to find something to hide behind that looked bulletproof.. to get out of the open. She had heard shots and they dove for the floor. As I was on the phone with her i heard police run in and tell them all to run.

We waiting on the Tarmac for at least 6 hours that I barely remember. I know people were kind, updates and announcements were non existent but we were given water and eventually told they would be doing controlled detonations and not to be afraid. We were eventually evacuated by SWAT teams. As expected, evacuated 12000 tired and frightened people was not an easy or smooth process. Red Cross Emergency response teams met us at the cruise terminal where we were bussed. From there our large group walked out to main roads to get away from traffic jams and were able to get UBER to a hotel. We got in to the hotel at 2 am.

I lost my wallet and my daughters passport, my house keys, my car keys, all of our medications, my shoe. We have been contacted about where we can go to try and ID our luggage and just got through to the hotline to report the things left behind when we ran. I am amazed that the second incident is not being reported at all. Mass hysteria in multiple terminals at the same time with shots heard not only by my sister but multiple people we've spoken to since.

Regardless.. and here is the most important thing. I am ALIVE. My children are ALIVE. My family is ALIVE. The rest of it doesn't matter. People are mourning their loved ones today and they deserve all the support and love we can send them. My family will need counselling, but we have each other.
Thank you if you made it through all of this. I feel like I need to tell it over and over. :(

Thinking of you today @pigletto and sending prayers along with a gentle hug. :hug:
 




New Posts









Receive up to $1,000 in Onboard Credit and a Gift Basket!
That’s right — when you book your Disney Cruise with Dreams Unlimited Travel, you’ll receive incredible shipboard credits to spend during your vacation!
CLICK HERE






DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest DIS Tiktok DIS Twitter DIS Bluesky

Back
Top Bottom