Fastpass return or replacement?

[mercuryvenus]

If you mean the paper FP's then I definitely would mind that. That was such a fiasco. People running from rope drop, people getting knocked down by others trying to get to the machines, the machines breaking, CM's just handing out 10-20 FP's to someone who is just there as a party of two who lied to the CM, etc. Too many issues to bring that monster back.

I didn’t go to Disney during that time, since there was a break between my family trips as a kid (which ended around 1998) and when I went back as an adult, but that does sound terrible. Especially when you take into account the larger crowds at WDW these days and the number of people with strollers, scooters, etc. I can’t imagine having to run to get a paper FP.

I am all for a FP+ system, and I would understand if Disney made more FP+ (maybe in the form of wishes in the Genie app) available for free for people who have already paid Disney more money by staying at a more expensive hotel. What will tick me off is if Disney got rid of free FP+ altogether. I’m conflicted as to whether I think they should bring back same-day FP or whether they should limit it to FP+. Same day FP is awesome for people who know how to work the system, but totally doesn’t benefit those who aren’t aware of how to use it.

Keep in mind the knowledge differential between the average Disney visitor and people like us. I’m in a general Disney planning group and the number of very, very basic questions (ex: what is the Disney app? What does rope drop mean?) reminds me how little most people know. On the one hand, you can say that they should simply learn. On the other hand, Disney needs to cater to them as well. It shouldn’t be the case that the experience is miles better for those who can work the system.

And I say all of that as someone who is positioned to benefit really well from this (we’re DVC, so we would stand to benefit from any hotel-linked benefits, and we know the Disney system really well).

 

[TinkerBelle_325]

So it appears that DPA at Disneyland Paris will soft launch on Aug 3 & 4th. Full launch on Aug 5th.

Even though I am strongly in camp “DPA won’t work for WDW”, if we use the same announcement and implementation pattern assuming Oct 1st is the target launch of whatever WDW’s new system will be….

That would mean an announcement the week of Aug 30th, soft launch Sept 29th & 30th, full launch Oct 1st.

 

[DJJimmy9]

To be honest, MOST of the people I see who are desperate for FP+ to return are those who have gotten good at "gaming the system".

I do not remember a time when I "gamed the system" by going back for more FP's.

Maybe not enough of us amateurs are speaking up because we loved FP+ and rarely got more than the first round

As I mentioned, I never "gamed" it either, but as a whole, I benefited from it and I liked certain aspects about it.

So in all seriousness, why do all of you think that getting more Fastpasses after you used your original 3 is “gaming” the system?

Disney created a system that, after you used your 3, you could select one more at a time for the rest of the day as long as their was FP availability. How is taking advantage of that gaming the system? If Disney wanted to limit the number of FP you could get, they would have. They didn’t and even the Disney instructions on FP said you could select more.

Yes - I took pride in getting as many FP as possible because I hate waiting in lines. But if I used 10 FP in one day, was I doing something the system didn’t allow? Was I tricking the system in some unscrupulous way to get something that wasn’t supposed to be available to me? I would say “No”. Now did my experience and expertise help me get more than a newbie - absolutely “Yes”. And I get that you might say that this experience gave me an unfair advantage over others. But does me booking a hotel 11-months in advance give me an advantage to get the room I want? Does buying tickets to the BooBash the second they go on sale give me an advantage to get tickets for the exact date I want? Is that gaming the system? I don’t think so.

Again - if Disney felt that using 10 FP in a day was a problem, why didn’t they limit my FP to 3 or 6 or 8 or whatever they deemed to be fair?

 

[BrianL]

So in all seriousness, why do all of you think that getting more Fastpasses after you used your original 3 is “gaming” the system?

Disney created a system that, after you used your 3, you could select one more at a time for the rest of the day as long as their was FP availability. How is taking advantage of that gaming the system. If Disney wanted to limit the number of FP you could get, they would have. They didn’t and even the Disney instructions on FP said you select more.

Yes - I took pride in getting as many FP as possible because I hate waiting in lines. But if I used 10 FP in one day, was I doing something the system didn’t allow? WasI tricking the system to get something that wasn’t available to me? I would say “No”. Now did my experience and expertise help me get more than a newbie - Yes. Does me booking a hotel 11-months in advance give me an advantage to get the room I want? Does buying tickets to the BooBash the second they go on sale give me an advantage to tickets for the date I want? Is that gaming the system? I don’t think so.

Again - if Disney felt that me using 10 FP in a day was a problem, why didn’t they limit my FP to 3 or 6 or 8 or whatever they deemed to be fair?

I don't think the term "gaming the system" is intended to cast aspersions - it's gaming, within the rules of the program, and yeah, some poeple were better at it than others. It's not "cheating the system" or doing anything that violates the rules, but the system as it was setup and intended did favor those who knew the nuances and could take advantage of them. I did it, though I never figured out how to get eight additional FPs in a day - one or two at most for me. I was only able to do that though because so many people didn't know they could. It's just the way that it was.

 

[Disneylover99]

So in all seriousness, why do all of you think that getting more Fastpasses after you used your original 3 is “gaming” the system?

Disney created a system that, after you used your 3, you could select one more at a time for the rest of the day as long as their was FP availability. How is taking advantage of that gaming the system? If Disney wanted to limit the number of FP you could get, they would have. They didn’t and even the Disney instructions on FP said you could select more.

Yes - I took pride in getting as many FP as possible because I hate waiting in lines. But if I used 10 FP in one day, was I doing something the system didn’t allow? Was I tricking the system in some unscrupulous way to get something that wasn’t supposed to be available to me? I would say “No”. Now did my experience and expertise help me get more than a newbie - absolutely “Yes”. And I get that you might say that this experience gave me an unfair advantage over others. But does me booking a hotel 11-months in advance give me an advantage to get the room I want? Does buying tickets to the BooBash the second they go on sale give me an advantage to get tickets for the exact date I want? Is that gaming the system? I don’t think so.

Again - if Disney felt that using 10 FP in a day was a problem, why didn’t they limit my FP to 3 or 6 or 8 or whatever they deemed to be fair?

Getting more then 3 fp’s per day is not gaming the system. It was always advertised/suggested as a selling feature of fp+.

You’re just using the system as it was designed. Totally fine.

 

[Wandering Oaken]

So in all seriousness, why do all of you think that getting more Fastpasses after you used your original 3 is “gaming” the system?

Disney created a system that, after you used your 3, you could select one more at a time for the rest of the day as long as their was FP availability. How is taking advantage of that gaming the system? If Disney wanted to limit the number of FP you could get, they would have. They didn’t and even the Disney instructions on FP said you could select more.

Yes - I took pride in getting as many FP as possible because I hate waiting in lines. But if I used 10 FP in one day, was I doing something the system didn’t allow? Was I tricking the system in some unscrupulous way to get something that wasn’t supposed to be available to me? I would say “No”. Now did my experience and expertise help me get more than a newbie - absolutely “Yes”. And I get that you might say that this experience gave me an unfair advantage over others. But does me booking a hotel 11-months in advance give me an advantage to get the room I want? Does buying tickets to the BooBash the second they go on sale give me an advantage to get tickets for the exact date I want? Is that gaming the system? I don’t think so.

Again - if Disney felt that using 10 FP in a day was a problem, why didn’t they limit my FP to 3 or 6 or 8 or whatever they deemed to be fair?

I don't. I was quoting the other person that said that. While I don't see it that way at all I also never bothered to do that. I got my three and I was good with that.

 

[DJJimmy9]

I don't think the term "gaming the system" is intended to cast aspersions - it's gaming, within the rules of the program, and yeah, some poeple were better at it than others. It's not "cheating the system" or doing anything that violates the rules, but the system as it was setup and intended did favor those who knew the nuances and could take advantage of them. I did it, though I never figured out how to get eight additional FPs in a day - one or two at most for me. I was only able to do that though because so many people didn't know they could. It's just the way that it was.

I hear ya. But I think the term “gaming” has a connotation similar to cheating or manipulating. I view what I did as maximizing a benefit. Some people paid for the dining plan and ordered cheaper menu items. Others realized they could order the most expensive menu item and maximize the value of the DDP.

I mean what I did with FP wasn’t that difficult. We would rope drop and ride a couple headliners or sometimes everything in new fantasyland (dumbo, goofy (2 or 3 times), little mermaid). I would then use my 3 Fastpasses which were ideally stacked to use between 10am and noon. After scanning my 3rd FP, I immediately added a fourth (ideally with a return time around 1pm-ish). We’d then stop for a table service lunch. After lunch, maybe we’d ride some smaller non-FP rides and then hit our 4th Fastpass. After scanning our 4th FP we’d immediately grab our 5th. And so on and so on. The additional FP we got were not usually for headliners. We would often get Small World, Tea Cups, Speedway, Aladdin. We always knew that POTC and HM would have additional FPs sometime later in the day. But I would never grab a POTC for 6pm as my 4th FP (selection made at noon). I would only get FP that were in the next hour. Otherwise I’d be blocked from getting more during the afternoon.

This seemed pretty simple to me, but I understand that this was a foreign concept to others. But it’s not like it was some big secret. I call it maximizing the system - not gaming.

 

[DJJimmy9]

I don't. I was quoting the other person that said that. While I don't see it that way at all I also never bothered to do that. I got my three and I was good with that.

Ok - got it!

 

[CampbellzSoup]

I’ve been fine without it.

 

[BrianL]

I hear ya. But I think the term “gaming” has a connotation similar to cheating or manipulating. I view what I did as maximizing a benefit. Some people paid for the dining plan and ordered cheaper menu items. Others realized they could order the most expensive menu item and maximize the value of the DDP.

I mean what I did with FP wasn’t that difficult. We would rope drop and ride a couple headliners or sometimes everything in new fantasyland (dumbo, goofy (2 or 3 times), little mermaid). I would then use my 3 Fastpasses which were ideally stacked to use between 10am and noon. After scanning my 3rd FP, I immediately added a fourth (ideally with a return time around 1pm-ish). We’d then stop for a table service lunch. After lunch, maybe we’d ride some smaller non-FP rides and then hit our 4th Fastpass. After scanning our 4th FP we’d immediately grab our 5th. And so on and so on. The additional FP we got were not usually for headliners. We would often get Small World, Tea Cups, Speedway, Aladdin. We always knew that POTC and HM would have additional FPs sometime later in the day. But I would never grab a POTC for 6pm as my 4th FP (selection made at noon). I would only get FP that were in the next hour. Otherwise I’d be blocked from getting more during the afternoon.

This seemed pretty simple to me, but I understand that this was a foreign concept to others. But it’s not like it was some big secret. I call it maximizing the system - not gaming.

Well, I think we're just getting caught up in semantics. I can't speak for the poster who used the term gaming, but I didn't take it from the tone of the post that they were insinuating that anyone was doing anything wrong, just that the system as designed lended itself to that by people who knew more about it, and maybe that wasn't ideal for all guests.

 

[DJJimmy9]

Well, I think we're just getting caught up in semantics. I can't speak for the poster who used the term gaming, but I didn't take it from the tone of the post that they were insinuating that anyone was doing anything wrong, just that the system as designed lended itself to that by people who knew more about it, and maybe that wasn't ideal for all guests.

Got it. For all the people I quoted, I guess I didn’t mean to single you out but rather was asking broadly about this view. I have seen many others on these boards imply that some people were “gaming” or “abusing” the FP system. Even some have said the only people upset that FP is gone are the people that “gamed the system”. I know semantics and tone can be tough to interpret in a forum like this. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[BrianL]

Got it. For all the people I quoted, I guess I didn’t mean to single you out but rather was asking broadly about this view. I have seen many others on these boards imply that some people were “gaming” or “abusing” the FP system. Even some have said the only people upset that FP is gone are the people that “gamed the system”. I know semantics and tone can be tough to interpret in a forum like this. Thanks for clarifying.

Yeah, it definitely was not "abusing" - the system was absolutely intended to work that way. Well, there were some ways to actually abuse it at first, but a lot of those loopholes were closed, but people were doing it. That's different than just getting the most out of it within the rules. I do like the term "maximizing" - like in D&D!

 

[mercuryvenus]

Here’s what I’ll say. Having FP+ back would be awesome. I think people who were able to take maximum advantage of the FP system deserved to be able to do so. It’s not as though anyone was violating rules.

That said, I’m working on our November trip via Touring Plans right now and it’s not looking nearly as bad as I thought it would. We’ll have 8 days in the park. Since we’ll be with our then 5 year old, I’m trying to break things up, so we don’t exhaust her. I’m also aware of the need to give the grandparents a break.

We’re planning 2 Epcot days, 2 MK days, 2 HS days, and 1 AK day, and will be there from Nov 4-11.

Touring Plans is projecting only 6 rides will have a 40min or more wait: Slinky Dog, Remy, Falcon, Runaway Railway, Rock N Roller Coaster, and Avatar. This is with me saying we’ll take advantage of early park entry twice, but otherwise won’t get to the parks until 10am. We’ll only have one full day in the parks. Otherwise we’ll be there in the morning and will go back to the hotel for swimming/relaxation in the afternoons. Then we’ll go back for fireworks on some of the evenings.

My point is simply that, if Touring Plans is correct, we can do a trip in November with no FP and get everything done that we want to in a reasonable way.

 

[Grasshopper2016]

I agree that "gaming the system" is a misleading way of describing the refresh method. Perhaps "mastering the system" would be better.

One of the (perhaps unintended) advantages of Fastpass+ was that it provided a way for regular guests to get enough satisfaction from a visit to keep on coming back. A first-time guest might be willing to wait in a long line for a ride she has never done before. But a fifth-time guest (who knows that that particular ride is cute, but not amazing) will be less willing.

There are annual pass holders who come to Disney so often that they don't feel any particular need to go on any particular ride, or lots of rides, on any given visit. But there are lots of people (like me) who are not local and come once a year or so. For us, if the lines are super-long, and there is no ability to bypass them, we will either end up missing the opportunity to ride some rides that we really wanted to do, or we will spend the whole day in miserable lines. Neither of those alternatives is acceptable to someone who has been to Disney multiple times and is deciding whether or not to return. Yes, nostalgia has a strong pull on us. But there are limits.

The genius of Fastpass+ was that it allowed people like me to get enough value from a Disney vacation to keep coming back (and keep giving Disney more piles of our money). For the average guest, three free line skips seemed like a nice perk that made them feel good about Disney --- and provided them genuine value. Regulars who mastered the system were able to get even more out of it, which was good because they needed more value to make additional trips worthwhile. And since few people in the crowd ever figured out how to master the system in that way, most other guests' experiences weren't really altered that much.

A paid system will likely allow for a similar experience. But at an additional cost. The truth is, I'm willing to pay that cost (within reason), and Disney will be wringing every last penny out of me--no more leaving money on the table.

But there is a limit. Disney has to be careful about the price point. If the cost is too high, it will price me out. And I will stop going. Though maybe Disney would be happy to replace me with a combination of (1) first-time guests who spend more and are willing to accept less value for more money and (2) wealthy guests who are willing and able to pay massive sums to have a better experience.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

Got it. For all the people I quoted, I guess I didn’t mean to single you out but rather was asking broadly about this view. I have seen many others on these boards imply that some people were “gaming” or “abusing” the FP system. Even some have said the only people upset that FP is gone are the people that “gamed the system”. I know semantics and tone can be tough to interpret in a forum like this. Thanks for clarifying.

I was the one who used that phrase. I put it in quotes, because I didn't like that exact phrase, but had a brain fart as to what I was trying to say. But when I said gaming the system, I did not mean to imply you were doing anything "illegal", but that you were "playing the game". You were using the system more than the average person to a distinct advantage over the average person.

 

[artesian]

Here’s what I’ll say. Having FP+ back would be awesome. I think people who were able to take maximum advantage of the FP system deserved to be able to do so. It’s not as though anyone was violating rules.

That said, I’m working on our November trip via Touring Plans right now and it’s not looking nearly as bad as I thought it would. We’ll have 8 days in the park. Since we’ll be with our then 5 year old, I’m trying to break things up, so we don’t exhaust her. I’m also aware of the need to give the grandparents a break.

We’re planning 2 Epcot days, 2 MK days, 2 HS days, and 1 AK day, and will be there from Nov 4-11.

Touring Plans is projecting only 6 rides will have a 40min or more wait: Slinky Dog, Remy, Falcon, Runaway Railway, Rock N Roller Coaster, and Avatar. This is with me saying we’ll take advantage of early park entry twice, but otherwise won’t get to the parks until 10am. We’ll only have one full day in the parks. Otherwise we’ll be there in the morning and will go back to the hotel for swimming/relaxation in the afternoons. Then we’ll go back for fireworks on some of the evenings.

My point is simply that, if Touring Plans is correct, we can do a trip in November with no FP and get everything done that we want to in a reasonable way.

That's a big IF. TP doesn't have much data to work with now and I think everything is off kilter because of the people rushing back into vacations. My observations on my past trip in Jan is that Disney was way off on wait times. Not sure if intentional or not but many were off half or better than advertised. It struck me as off when a ride was posted 45 min getting on in 15. I'm not doubting your logic but with the 50th starting in Oct I think it's a lot harder to predict crowds and what not. After my trip next week I don't plan to go to late Jan when I think things should be back to whatever the new normal is.

 

[bookgirl2632]

I was also someone who utilized FP+ to its full capacity. I’d get our first three and then instantly go for the next one while in line for the last one. I liked FP+ way more than the paper FPs, since I wasn’t interested in running with the bulls, as it were. I know all the arguments for and against it. But the bottom line is that I at least knew that I was guaranteed three of the rides/attractions I wanted with a minimal wait. My October trip is an unknown to me at this point. Things change from week to week, so who knows what the lines will look like then. So yeah, I’d like some form of FP back. Unfortunately, I think we’ll be paying for it. If that price is too high, I guess I’ll wait in line. We’ll see.

 

[DΐຮŇey☂]

With a pending trip planned for July, 2022, I'm anxiously awaiting an official announcement on the position WDW will take. I'm remaining hopeful news will be shared by early August, to give some time to acclimate for the kick-off of the 50th anniversary celebrations in October....

This may just be me living in a dreamy fantasy

 

[ellbell]

I was the one who used that phrase. I put it in quotes, because I didn't like that exact phrase, but had a brain fart as to what I was trying to say. But when I said gaming the system, I did not mean to imply you were doing anything "illegal", but that you were "playing the game". You were using the system more than the average person to a distinct advantage over the average person.

Maximizing its potential is probably the correct phrase.

 

[tlseege]

As an expert at maximizing the potential of the previous FP+ program, I'd really really like it back. Specifically for my October 1st trip

But I fully know that it won't come back and something will be taking it's place. I'm excited to see what the future system will bring. I only hope that I can master that system and maximize our vacation time the way I did with the past FP+ program.

I'm perfectly fine with a pay to play system, as most amusement parks have them. I'm just interested to see how it'll work. We spent the entire day at Six Flags Great America yesterday. "Rope drop to Wishes" as my daughter calls it. We did not purchase the Flash Pass add on, as it's crazy expensive and we're season pass holders so if we only get in a couple rides we're okay with that. During our morning touring of the theme park, we waited a maximum of 15 minutes for a ride. After lunch, lines were an hour for anything, which we know and expect. But MAN the amount of complaining we then got to hear about the Flash Pass was fun! Lots and lots of complaints at that time.