Fast Pass return times

[KellyNY]

Yes. Because if they had used the FP earlier in the day, the line would have been backed up that much more.

Nope, SB self regulates itself and you do not know who would get into this line. We do not stand in one long line.

 

[mjp12831]

You seriously beleive, looking deep down, not even admitting to board but to yourself that late FPer did not affect anyone? That somehow when late FPer was going infront of SB, time was frosen?
Star Trek material. Remarkable.

Please take the time with an open mind to think this through.

When I first found out about late FP use, I had the same reaction as you - that it was slowing down the SB line. People showed me that I was wrong and I changed by stance.

Scenerio 1: I get a FP for TSM with a window of 10am to 11am. You get in the TSM SB line at 11am. If I return within my window you are behind me in line. If I return to use my FP late (say 6pm) you are ahead of me in line when you should have been behind me. As a SB rider you just benefitted from late FP use and get on the ride sooner.

Scenerio 2: I get a FP for TSM with a window of 10am to 11am. You get in the TSM SB line at 6pm. I come at 6:01 and get in the FP line and walk by you and ride TSM ahead of you. If I came within my window of 10 to 11am, I would also have riden ahead of you - either way you ride after me and are behind me in line and no one was affected.

When you see someone use a FP late, your instinct is to think you were wronged because you physically see that person walk ahead of you in line, but if that person rode within their window they still would have been ahead of you in line, moving the SB line back by 1 person (the rides operate at capacity) - you just would have never seen that person. The fact that you see the person feeds to your perception that they are increasing your wait time when in reality they arent.

In either case you were not affected negatively, and in scenerio 1 you were actually affected positively.

 

[DisneyFive]

Thank you for providing those.

Do you have an opinion why Disney just didnt widely promote the non-FP enforcement? As in notify guests in their literature and on their signage.

If Disney really wanted everyone to take advantage of this, why did they still print beginning and ending times on the FP tickets?

I don't know to be honest. Let's say everyone DID know about late FP's being accepted, I wonder how it would impact the lines. Certainly it would have to add more people to the FP lines later in the day than with the new policy, all else being equal. (no difference in number of FP's distributed) However, I wonder how big of an impact that would really be. I think there are many guests that want to use that FP as early as possible in the FP window because they can't wait to go on the ride! We've done this many times ourselves, even though we used late FP's in the past also. An interesting question. It's all speculation really. It makes me wish I kept track of how many times we used our FPs in the one hour window versus after the one hour window on our previous two trips. I'm curious as to how I used the system myself! (although I know we used them after the 1 hour window frequently)

Let me sit down my Poms Poms for a second here....

Another benefit I see and this is admittedly in my selfish point of view is that it cuts down on guests acting as proxy FP distributors.

Can you explain what you mean by "guests acting as proxy FP distributors"?

Just curious, how is it saving you $400-$500 per day? In two table service meals? They cost that much? Or was this a joke?

Thanks.

Yes, our TS meals on average were around $200 each for our party of 7 the last two years. (we were on the free dining plan, which makes it easier to order the priciest entree option, but this is what the bill would have come to if we had to pay). Actually, the character buffets tend to be the most expensive meals. Granted, we only do one TS a day, so if we didn't do TS meals because we were worried about interferance with FP's, it would "only" keep us from spending $200 per day on a TS meal. I'm not that extreme though. I wouldn't cancel TS meals because of the new FP policy.

Dan

 

[goofyernmost]

We're now debating the same point on 2 different threads, but as explained on the other one this would not be a problem because it would fix itself. Even of those who knew they could use late, not everyone did as evidenced by the people on these boards who are accusing the late users of being rule breakers. Further, in an extreme example where everyone uses late than the SB line goes quicker.

Very few have accused late users of being rule breakers. They were doing what Disney allowed. That is just a paranoid look at it. Even if Disney, on occasion, let it slip that they allowed FP later then the window, they never officially changed it on the FP ticket did they. It become very gray because since Disney allowed it to happen it no longer was "breaking" any rules because they now allowed it. They just didn't tell everyone about it, officially.


This is wrong - as explained above anyone with a window ahead of when you get in the SB line is already in line ahead of you. If they used in their window then the line you are standing in would be that much longer, you just wouldn't actually see those people. You perceive to be waiting longer but the reality is that you aren't. Those people you see at 9pm would have rode at 4pm taking up ride capacity and pushing the lines out by 20 people.

This is a handy little argument but it is just smoke and mirrors. If someone has a FP for 3 PM to 4 PM they are "virtually" in the line only during that time. So if you are in the line at the same time...they are ahead of you or they could be behind you depending on when they showed up. You would have to assume that the line never catches up to make that carry over to a later time. If someone with that FP decides to not use it until 6 PM they then become part of the actual line at 6 PM and only affect SB at that time. By theory, they should have been in and gone hours ago thus not making any difference to the 6 PM stand by. I will grant that the SB line went quicker between 3 and 4 because they weren't there. It is completely different people that are brought into the mix later.

Possibly in part, but this cannot be proven. What can be proven is that under the old system you could ride to your heart's content and never wait in lines, and this opportunity was open to anyone in the park.

This last one also assumes that absolutely everyone can get to a FP. Since they can't and it appears only about 30%, if that many can, they cannot.

I don't think that this change has anything at all to do with this argument anyway. It has to do with maintaining a balance, controlled flow of people after they start up NextGen. If you start passing out FP's 6 months in advance for, say 7 PM, nothing but bad will happen if people that were supposed to go through there at 4 PM start showing up at 7.

 

[mom2rtk]

Nope, SB self regulates itself and you do not know who would get into this line. We do not stand in one long line.

I'm talking about the FP line. If they couldn't use the FP late, they would go earlier pushng everyone else back that many more spots. All they really did by going late was to let everyone else using FP cut in line ahead of them.

 

[JennaDeeDooDah]

I always followed the time on the ticket anyway so it's the same for us. If we couldn't make the time, we'd give them away to someone who could.

Same here. I think the main problem here is sense of entitlement. The Fast Pass has always had a return time range when you were supposed to return. Some people just felt that that time didn't apply to them and that they could return whenever they felt like it. Most people didn't even realize that they could return after the range had expired and just threw away their fast passes. This way is fair to everybody. If you cannot return during the hour-long window, do not get a fast pass or simply give it to someone who can use it.

 

[mom2rtk]

Same here. I think the main problem here is sense of entitlement. The Fast Pass has always had a return time range when you were supposed to return. Some people just felt that that time didn't apply to them and that they could return whenever they felt like it. Most people didn't even realize that they could return after the range had expired and just threw away their fast passes. This way is fair to everybody. If you cannot return during the hour-long window, do not get a fast pass or simply give it to someone who can use it.

And just how is it a sense of etitlement if the CM tells you you can return any time after the window as long as it's that day....... and that's what they did?

I know there have been aproximately 9,458 threads on this very topic in the past 2 months......... but I still marvel at this amazingly judgmental way of thinking.

 

[JennaDeeDooDah]

And just how is it a sense of etitlement if the CM tells you you can return any time after the window as long as it's that day....... and that's what they did?

I know there have been aproximately 9,458 threads on this very topic in the past 2 months......... but I still marvel at this amazingly judgmental way of thinking.

The pass has always given you a window for when you could return. Not everyone was told that they could return later. This made it so that some people followed one set of rules and some followed another, much more lax set of rules. Now people are angry that we are all going to be forced to follow the same rules and that they can't do as the please like that have in the past. They don't think the rules should apply to them. That is a sense of entitlement - the belief that certain rules shouldn't have to apply to them.

 

[KellyNY]

Please take the time with an open mind to think this through.

When I first found out about late FP use, I had the same reaction as you - that it was slowing down the SB line. People showed me that I was wrong and I changed by stance.

Scenerio 1: I get a FP for TSM with a window of 10am to 11am. You get in the TSM SB line at 11am. If I return within my window you are behind me in line. If I return to use my FP late (say 6pm) you are ahead of me in line when you should have been behind me. As a SB rider you just benefitted from late FP use and get on the ride sooner.

Scenerio 2: I get a FP for TSM with a window of 10am to 11am. You get in the TSM SB line at 6pm. I come at 6:01 and get in the FP line and walk by you and ride TSM ahead of you. If I came within my window of 10 to 11am, I would also have riden ahead of you - either way you ride after me and are behind me in line and no one was affected.

When you see someone use a FP late, your instinct is to think you were wronged because you physically see that person walk ahead of you in line, but if that person rode within their window they still would have been ahead of you in line, moving the SB line back by 1 person (the rides operate at capacity) - you just would have never seen that person. The fact that you see the person feeds to your perception that they are increasing your wait time when in reality they arent.

In either case you were not affected negatively, and in scenerio 1 you were actually affected positively.

On individual level, it does not matter that someone benefitted from your no show at lets say 11AM because it was not same person who you going in front of at 6PM.

You are not infront of me because you and me standing in 2 different micro lines. Your line was somewhere at 11AM and I was not there. My line is at 6PM and you have no place here. We do not stand in one long line, we join different micro lines at different times.

People enter line according to wait times. I do not expect exact wait time but I have a reasonable believe that this is what it is more or less.

Do not forget SB line self regulates, many do not enter 40 min line but will enter 20 min line, but with late FP, SB is out of control and 20 min can easily turn into 40, esp. on cycle rides like Soarin. Now do not forget tht I also have ADRs and now I have to run across the park with my family just because someone decided they can benefit at my expense.

So, yes, on individual level there was a negative affect.

 

[UNCFanatik]

We're now debating the same point on 2 different threads, but as explained on the other one this would not be a problem because it would fix itself. Even of those who knew they could use late, not everyone did as evidenced by the people on these boards who are accusing the late users of being rule breakers. Further, in an extreme example where everyone uses late than the SB line goes quicker.

If it wasnt a problem then why did Disney put an end time on the return window to begin with? Why didnt Disney WIDELY publicize that you could return past the window?

There were also those they knew about it and didnt use it because of the time of year that they went to the parks. Or the makeup of their family. Some didnt use it because it was of little or no benefit to them.

Nope, a fixed number of riders could ride in a given day. Anyone pulling a FP was already ahead of you in line if you get in either line after their window. The fact that you would not have seen that person in line if they used during their window does not mean that they were not ahead of you. On the flipside, you may actually benefit from late usage because when that was allowed people who pulled FP with return times did not come back within their window, and if you got in line in the meantime they essentially let you pass them in line.

They only had a place in line in front of me that was reserved for an hour of time. If I was waiting in an SB line at an attraction at 9pm with a listed wait time of 20 minutes and 10 minutes into my waiting, a large group shows up with FPs that were supposed to be used between 11-12pm then it does negatively affect me. These people NEVER technically had a place in line in front of me. Those people may not have pulled the FP if they knew that they had to return at 11-12pm and thus it would have no affect on the SB line because they chose to skip the attraction all together because of the wait time when they first came to the attraction

FP supply is not impacted by enforcement - if WDW decides to increase supply it is at the sacrifice of the SB rider (fewer). FP demand may be slightly impacted by enforcement, but if your argument is that only 10% of people knew about late returns, and acknowedge that a portion of those who knew still used within their window, then really you've defeated that argument yourself because there wouldn't be enough people deferring use because of the policy change to impact demand.

But we have seen an increase of the supply of FPs. There is much speculation about why the increase has occurred.

This is wrong - as explained above anyone with a window ahead of when you get in the SB line is already in line ahead of you. If they used in their window then the line you are standing in would be that much longer, you just wouldn't actually see those people. You perceive to be waiting longer but the reality is that you aren't. Those people you see at 9pm would have rode at 4pm taking up ride capacity and pushing the lines out by 20 people.

No, as I have explained above. A person with an expired FP no longer has a place in line ahead of me.

Possibly in part, but this cannot be proven. What can be proven is that under the old system you could ride to your heart's content and never wait in lines, and this opportunity was open to anyone in the park.

And under the old system people also rode to their heart's content and had minimized waits by employing a varying array of touring styles. People have already testified to this. What is true is that it makes it more difficult for those that want to have more flexibility and minimize wait times during the busier times.

 

[Reddog1134]

Do not forget SB line self regulates, many do not enter 40 min line but will enter 20 min line, but with late FP, SB is out of control and 20 min can easily turn into 40, esp. on cycle rides like Soarin. Now do not forget tht I also have ADRs and now I have to run across the park with my family just because someone decided they can benefit at my expense.

Using that same logic, wouldn't there also be times when the FP riders SHOULD have been in line but aren't? Thereby making the wait shorter then it should have been? So now those SB riders walk up and see an acceptable wait time.

 

[KellyNY]

Using that same logic, wouldn't there also be times when the FP riders SHOULD have been in line but aren't? Thereby making the wait shorter then it should have been? So now those SB riders walk up and see an acceptable wait time.

And how I benefit from this 11 AM shorter line if I entered part at 2PM?

 

[Reddog1134]

And how I benefit from this 11 AM shorter line if I entered part at 2PM?

How do you benefit from anything that occurs when you are not present?

 

[mjp12831]

Same here. I think the main problem here is sense of entitlement. The Fast Pass has always had a return time range when you were supposed to return. Some people just felt that that time didn't apply to them and that they could return whenever they felt like it. Most people didn't even realize that they could return after the range had expired and just threw away their fast passes. This way is fair to everybody. If you cannot return during the hour-long window, do not get a fast pass or simply give it to someone who can use it.

This is a very judgemental response.

I frequently used FP late - because I was allowed to, just as every other park goer was. I never felt entitled - those were the rules which were commonly and widely acknowledged by the employees of the company. In three week long trips I was never once told by a CM that I could not ride because I was late, nor was it ever suggested that this was outside of the policy.

There were never two sets of rules - this would imply that people were treated differently. There may have been two different understandings of the rules, and there is a big difference between these two points. For instance, tax law allows you to deduct home mortgage interest, and this deduction is open to everyone. If you don't know about the home mortgage interest deduction and you don't claim it on your tax return, that does not imply that there are two sets of rules.

It's your responsibility to learn the accepted rules and be an informed consumer. It's not my responsibility as an informed consumer to make sure that everyone else is informed.

I continue to post on these threads mainly because I strongly feel that WDW did a disservice to the park goer in making this change. They took a rule that wasn't broke, worked very well and wasn't negatively impacting anyone and changed it such that it will most definately impact our trip and make it less enjoyable. I do not post because I feel entitled to anything - it's their park and they make the rules.

 

[KellyNY]

How do you benefit from anything that occurs when you are not present?

That was my question to you.

 

[DisneyFive]

Same here. I think the main problem here is sense of entitlement. The Fast Pass has always had a return time range when you were supposed to return. Some people just felt that that time didn't apply to them and that they could return whenever they felt like it.

Now people are angry that we are all going to be forced to follow the same rules and that they can't do as the please like that have in the past. They don't think the rules should apply to them. That is a sense of entitlement - the belief that certain rules shouldn't have to apply to them.

Whoa, you are way off base here! You are placing judgment on those that used late fastpasses as having a sense of entitlement? How presumptuous of you!, and just plain incorrect. You don't know me, yet you say I have a sense of entitlement because I used FP's after the 1 hour window?

First, that is just plain wrong. For many years now, the rules have already been the same for everyone. THEY ALLOWED FP's TO BE USED AFTER THE DESIGNATED 1 HOUR WINDOW. Folks using late FP's WERE following the allowed rules. Sheesh!

I have no sense of entitlement. Disney CM's themselves have SHOUTED to anyone within earshot that you could use the FP's after the 1 hour window. Again, please go back and look at the youtube video links I provided earlier in this thread with CM's announcing late FP usage on the streets of HS. (link added below) Ignorance of the rule doesn't mean the rule didn't exist, and the rules allowed late FP use.

http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=43968736&postcount=562

Dan

 

[Reddog1134]

That was my question to you.

And that was my response. What does not being in the park when the line is short have to do with late FP use?

 

[KellyNY]

This is a very judgemental response.

I frequently used FP late - because I was allowed to, just as every other park goer was. I never felt entitled - those were the rules which were commonly and widely acknowledged by the employees of the company. In three week long trips I was never once told by a CM that I could not ride because I was late, nor was it ever suggested that this was outside of the policy.

There were never two sets of rules - this would imply that people were treated differently. There may have been two different understandings of the rules, and there is a big difference between these two points. For instance, tax law allows you to deduct home mortgage interest, and this deduction is open to everyone. If you don't know about the home mortgage interest deduction and you don't claim it on your tax return, that does not imply that there are two sets of rules.

It's your responsibility to learn the accepted rules and be an informed consumer. It's not my responsibility as an informed consumer to make sure that everyone else is informed.

I continue to post on these threads mainly because I strongly feel that WDW did a disservice to the park goer in making this change. They took a rule that wasn't broke, worked very well and wasn't negatively impacting anyone and changed it such that it will most definately impact our trip and make it less enjoyable. I do not post because I feel entitled to anything - it's their park and they make the rules.

So, I guess you continue thinking that time was frozen when you walked infront of me, right?

 

[UNCFanatik]

This is a very judgemental response.

I frequently used FP late - because I was allowed to, just as every other park goer was. I never felt entitled - those were the rules which were commonly and widely acknowledged by the employees of the company. In three week long trips I was never once told by a CM that I could not ride because I was late, nor was it ever suggested that this was outside of the policy.

There were never two sets of rules - this would imply that people were treated differently. There may have been two different understandings of the rules, and there is a big difference between these two points. For instance, tax law allows you to deduct home mortgage interest, and this deduction is open to everyone. If you don't know about the home mortgage interest deduction and you don't claim it on your tax return, that does not imply that there are two sets of rules.

It's your responsibility to learn the accepted rules and be an informed consumer. It's not my responsibility as an informed consumer to make sure that everyone else is informed.

I continue to post on these threads mainly because I strongly feel that WDW did a disservice to the park goer in making this change. They took a rule that wasn't broke, worked very well and wasn't negatively impacting anyone and changed it such that it will most definately impact our trip and make it less enjoyable. I do not post because I feel entitled to anything - it's their park and they make the rules.

Following rules in life shouldnt be dependent on whether or not those rules are enforced. I dont think it was too unreasonable or ignorant for guest to even imagine that they could use the FP outside the window nor does that make them uninformed, jealous sheep wandering around clueless in this world

You took advantage of breaking a rule that Disney chose not to enforce but they are choosing to enforce now. I would again assert that if everyone would have broken that rule it would have forced a change earlier.

Not everyone sees this as a disservice to the park goers. It may be a negative change to some. You have already been given cases where the old system did negatively affect other guests but you choose to ignore since you seem to think these kind of things happen in a vacuum with zero effect to other guests.

 

[JennaDeeDooDah]

This is a very judgemental response.

I frequently used FP late - because I was allowed to, just as every other park goer was. I never felt entitled - those were the rules which were commonly and widely acknowledged by the employees of the company. In three week long trips I was never once told by a CM that I could not ride because I was late, nor was it ever suggested that this was outside of the policy.

There were never two sets of rules - this would imply that people were treated differently. There may have been two different understandings of the rules, and there is a big difference between these two points. For instance, tax law allows you to deduct home mortgage interest, and this deduction is open to everyone. If you don't know about the home mortgage interest deduction and you don't claim it on your tax return, that does not imply that there are two sets of rules.

It's your responsibility to learn the accepted rules and be an informed consumer. It's not my responsibility as an informed consumer to make sure that everyone else is informed.

I continue to post on these threads mainly because I strongly feel that WDW did a disservice to the park goer in making this change. They took a rule that wasn't broke, worked very well and wasn't negatively impacting anyone and changed it such that it will most definately impact our trip and make it less enjoyable. I do not post because I feel entitled to anything - it's their park and they make the rules.

I'm sorry that you felt it was judgmental. I should have been more clear. The sense of entitlement comment is not for those who did not return during their window. It is for those who are angry that the rule is now going to be enforced and saying that it isn't "right" or "fair".

I was never once told that the time on the Fast Pass was not enforced. Not once ever. First I heard about it was on here when they started enforcing the rule. So, there technically were two sets of rules. There was the first set that people followed that was printed on the Fast Pass itself and then there was one for people "in the know". Not necessarily the fault of either group, but two different rules nonetheless. Agree that it is not your responsibility as a consumer to inform other consumers of the rules. Agree completely. However, the return time is printed on the Fast Pass. Unless someone has been told that they could return later, common sense would indicate that the person using the Fast Pass would assume the window was when they were allowed to return. Common sense would not lead you to believe you need to check to see if there are any loopholes.

Now Disney has chosen to enforce the actual times. This will make it fair to everyone because there is no unwritten rule that some will not know about. For those who choose to accept this rule enforcement, it is no big deal. For those who are raising a fuss about it (and, according to my friend doing an advanced internship there, there are people raising a fuss when they get turned away after their FP time as expired) there is a sense of entitlement that the rules do not apply to them.

Now, you feel that WDW did a disservice to the park goer in making the change and that is fine. I can fully see your point of view. I do, however, feel that a change did need to be made. Perhaps there should not have been an end time in your Fast Pass window. Instead, it could have said that you could return anytime after fill-in-the-blank-time. That way, everyone would have known that there was no expiration (other than the end of the day).

Surely we can agree that having a window would lead people to believe that you had to return within that window and that having no end time would have been a better way to make sure everyone was well informed of when they could and could not return.