Explosions and shootings in Paris

[nanienamou]

I can't answer for the other poster, but I know people that would utter that same sentiment. They do not think that we should be bombing, they think any refugees are fine, they think we need to provide jobs, money etc...to them and they will be happy. Seriously. Members of my family. When they can be bothered to even know about it, which is rare. They prefer not to listen to the news then jump your stuff when you say anything negative to any of their idyllic viewpoints.

Actually, I'm thinking that news coverage depends a lot of where you live. What I'm seeing around here, what's being told by many specialists in Canada, is that bombings do NOT work to eliminate terrorism. The western world has been bombing continuously since 9/11 and it is simply not working. It is worsening the terrorism. Vicious circle. Hate fuels hate. Bombings fuels terrorism. Violence fuels violence. If you want to eradicate terrorism, you need to go in the field and fight, person to person, man to man. In other words, send our spouses/children to fight and to die, to eliminate terrorism factions one by one and even then, success is not guaranteed. I, for one, am not ready to accept sending civilians on these dangerous missions. Enough with the civilian casualties on either sides. I've actually heard a really interesting comparison by a known professor and specialist of the middle-east: terrorist cells are just like a hydra... cut one head off and another one will grow elsewhere, all factions are somewhat interconnected between them and are dispersed EVERYWHERE in the world. It's time to study alternative methods to solve this problem.

As for refugees, this video is really interesting...

ETA: I'm not sure, maybe this is too political, if so please erase it, I just saw that we are not supposed to talk about politics, but I'm not sure to what extent and my goal is not to politicize this thread. Thank you.

 

[Planogirl]

I believe that if the nations of the world work together they can at least severely weaken this terrorist organization. Kindness isn't going to work because they don't operate on that level. And I believe that they won't stop unless they are stopped.

It bothers me that so many people just seem to think that a few kind words and playing ostrich will solve this. No.

Bless France.

 

[nanienamou]

Except that bombings don't work. We have seen that over and over again since 9/11. We need to take a step back and really understand what is going on here. Who is funding these groups, where do the weapons come from? Why are people so desperate that they accept being recruited by ISIS? How can we help the middle east to rebuild new governments without destroying everything? How can we better integrate the immigrants in the general population? Bombing is not the only solution. When there is no hope, when people have been living in war all their lives, when they have lost family members, houses, everything, of course some of them will be vulnerable to be recruited by terrorist groups. They have nothing to lose, they are hurting, they want revenge, and the terrorist ideology feeds on hate and violence.

 

[declansdad]

I'm not sure what will work. There has been fighting in the Middle East for thousands of years and Western countries certainly don't have the best track record there. Personally I would rather see our country continue to support things like the bombing missions than put boots on the ground because that hasn't worked in the Middle East, ever.

 

[kandb]

I think most countries should spend their resources on keeping the terrorists out of their countries. I don't think they will eradicate the problem in the Mideast with terrorists because they are everywhere and when you bomb, you cannot pinpoint them. Better to spend the money and protect the countries to keep the terrorists out or deport the people that already have these terrorists in them.

 

[JaxDad]

Bombing definitely works to weaken them, but we need to hit the right targets. Their operations require leadership and money/materiel. We need to take out the leaders and their materiel whenever we can. We get a leader every once in a while and it's big news, and it has to hurt them. (France hit command and depot targets yesterday.) Unfortunately, I don't think we have a great human intelligence presence. We rely too much on electronic surveillance and probably miss opportunities to do real harm. We also have restrictive rules of engagement, which is a whole other debate.

I think we are losing the information war thus far too. ISIS is very good at using social networks and the internet. It's a big part of their recruiting. I don't think we have done this so well. We could use these things to counter their efforts and have our own campaign to "win the hearts and minds" or at least make potential recruits think twice. (There was an article recently about new recruits actually tweeting how much the food at ISIS camps sucks. If there were counterintelligence tweets coming out about horrible conditions, ruthless treatment of ISIS members, unfaithful ISIS leadership or other things, it could make a difference.) Effective propaganda would also help with the human intelligence issue. It would be easier to recruit and use spies. I know this is all extremely difficult, and I'm sure we do make an effort, but I don't think it is working as well as it could.

And the money. We need to squash the funding ISIS receives from states and individuals. I'm sure they have stolen plenty of money to use, as well as munitions and other war materiel, but I'm sure there are other, large sources of funds we could go after.

 

[cabanafrau]

In many, many cases (researched after the fact), Western converts are being lured by pandering to some specific ******* and/or area of vulnerability in their own lives - they do not necessarily have a deep commitment to the "larger cause". They are almost always crassly used as pawns and groomed from the beginning as suicide bombers.


Obviously they're exploiting vulnerabilities to capture the hearts and minds. They're also obviously doing it to such an extent that these jihadis willingly take on suicide missions. If they can achieve that level of control, how much more do they really need to satisfy your definition of hearts and minds?

ETA: I have no idea why my response shows up within a quote from you.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

What happened in Paris in horrendous, but I've seen among some of my friends what I consider to be valid questions: Why didn't Facebook allow me to add a Beirut flag over my profile picture when 41 people died the day before? Or a Kenyan flag when 147 people were killed in a terrorist attack in April?

I'm not saying we shouldn't "stand with Paris". This isn't an either/or argument. I'm just saying why didn't Kenya's attack in April get 4 days of constant media attention?

 

[kandb]

PP, when you think about it the 224 people who died in the plane brought down by the terrorists didn't get that much attention either. I think the way this attack was planned and orchestrated was what scares most people, out just sitting in a restaurant and shot to death or going to a concert. There was a terrorist attack a few months back at a beautiful resort (forgot where) and that didn't get that much attention either. Don't think it has to that it is "Kenya" that it wasn't publicized as much.

 

[Stitch69]

What happened in Paris in horrendous, but I've seen among some of my friends what I consider to be valid questions: Why didn't Facebook allow me to add a Beirut flag over my profile picture when 41 people died the day before? Or a Kenyan flag when 147 people were killed in a terrorist attack in April?

I'm not saying we shouldn't "stand with Paris". This isn't an either/or argument. I'm just saying why didn't Kenya's attack in April get 4 days of constant media attention?

It surprises me that Facebook would not allow a profile pic like that

 

[asta]

Except that bombings don't work. We have seen that over and over again since 9/11. We need to take a step back and really understand what is going on here. Who is funding these groups, where do the weapons come from? Why are people so desperate that they accept being recruited by ISIS? How can we help the middle east to rebuild new governments without destroying everything? How can we better integrate the immigrants in the general population? Bombing is not the only solution. When there is no hope, when people have been living in war all their lives, when they have lost family members, houses, everything, of course some of them will be vulnerable to be recruited by terrorist groups. They have nothing to lose, they are hurting, they want revenge, and the terrorist ideology feeds on hate and violence.

There is also the argument that we haven't hurt them enough. Once again, I am not arguing use of atomic power but look at what happened with Japan in WWII. It took a tremendous show of power but the bombs broke their backs and even today they still do not have a military stance.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

It surprises me that Facebook would not allow a profile pic like that

I'm not saying they aren't allowing you to change your picture to the Lebananese flag. What I mean is that right now Facebook has added the ability to take your existing profile picture and cover it with a semi-transparent French flag. All you have to do is click a button. But only a French flag. They didn't do that for Kenya in April. They didn't do that for Lebanon. I know it's minor, and very picky. It's just interesting to me that one's more important than others.

 

[Patch'sD]

There is no right answer to combating the people that want to harm us. It will take a tremendous resolve of most of the western world to put down this uprising of religious fanatics. Let the Militaries of the world do their job. The bombings up to now have been selective Politically Correct isolated attempts. I strongly believe that the US should take every B52 we have left and start carpet bombing every ISIS strong hold or controlled area in IRAQ and SYRIA. No more pin point bombing, desolate their stong holds. Once IRAQ and SYRIA are cleaned up than go after then in Libya, Egypt, and any where else they are. I think that the US can work very well with Britain, France, Germany, Russia, Canada, and any other nation. If the Mideast countries won't join in, than they can pay for it with their Oil. Make sure any terrorist sponsoring nation like IRAN is forced to stay on the sidelines.

 

[wilkeliza]

One isn't more important than the other. The attacks in Kenya, Beriut, and other places does not suddenly mean we can not stand and support our allies. My heart aches for anyone who has experienced terriorism like this but it is more of a shock to the system when it happens in a relatively peaceful country. If an attack happens in say Isreal it sadly is just another day in the on going Isreal Palenetine conflict. When it happens in Paris that isn't normal. Neither means my heart aches for the other less.

 

[TLSnell1981]

It surprises me that Facebook would not allow a profile pic like that

It doesn't surprise me.

 

[nanienamou]

There is also the argument that we haven't hurt them enough. Once again, I am not arguing use of atomic power but look at what happened with Japan in WWII. It took a tremendous show of power but the bombs broke their backs and even today they still do not have a military stance.

Actually it is not a valid argument for two reasons: first, the terrorist cells are everywhere, in every country across the world, not just the Middle East. Where do you bomb? Bomb one cell, another one will pop up elsewhere. It's a global problem, even if you completely obliterate the Middle East, there will still be terrorists and they will be even more violent. Second, the terrorists don't care about civilian lives. They are destroying as much (even more) Muslims as they are Westerners. They know that these attacks are provoking these bombing, the more you bomb, the more you are giving them fuel to recruit more, you are giving them exactly what they need to prosper. I'm not saying that we should just ignore the problem. What I'm saying is that we must stop automatic retaliation, take a step back, and analyze the situation to find other ways to control this problem.

 

[eliza61]

I think most countries should spend their resources on keeping the terrorists out of their countries. I don't think they will eradicate the problem in the Mideast with terrorists because they are everywhere and when you bomb, you cannot pinpoint them. Better to spend the money and protect the countries to keep the terrorists out or deport the people that already have these terrorists in them.

Not as simple, as many countries are finding out many of the terrorist are "homegrown". next, where are you going to deport them to? Let's say you get a guy who you have some one here you suspect is a terrorist, he's here legally but an Iraian, African or syrian national. Do you think it's a simple put them on the plane and ship them back?

 

[cabanafrau]

Curiously I feel hopeful knowing Anonymous has revealed their motivations in the fight. I hope I do not come to rue those words.

 

[eliza61]

We fought Vietnam proportionally and......we lost. To win a war it is all or nothing!!

At the time we had a big powerful army. Why did we lose? We lost the will to fight!

That is not a bad thing.

Some wars are poorly conceived and do not need to be fought. Wasting the lives of american soldiers for some "on upmanship" against the Soviets was ridiculous.

Personally I hope there are always people who will stand up and protest going to war.

 

[sunshinemelody]

What happened in Paris in horrendous, but I've seen among some of my friends what I consider to be valid questions: Why didn't Facebook allow me to add a Beirut flag over my profile picture when 41 people died the day before? Or a Kenyan flag when 147 people were killed in a terrorist attack in April?

I'm not saying we shouldn't "stand with Paris". This isn't an either/or argument. I'm just saying why didn't Kenya's attack in April get 4 days of constant media attention?

According to Mark Zuckerberg.

I call ********, but whatever.