Epcot, AK and DHS have been slow all summer?

We loved New Fantasyland. Absolutely gorgeous and jaw-dropping. The negative aspect of that was we noticed how so much more of MK needs, at the very least, a refurbishment. Splash Mountain was never running properly(lots of stalls and worn-looking animatronics).

I also agree with the poster from a couple of days ago that said Future World in Epcot seems "broken". As bad as DHS is...Epcot's Future World is worse.

Animal Kingdom seems to be in good shape(as far as the experience)...but the crowds aren't there.
 
Epcot, DHS and AK should be half the price of MK. That would help attendance.

(I know it would require a whole reworking of their current ticket structure)

EPCOT is still the most ambitious, innovative "amusement" park ever constructed...

It has not been well taken care of in the last 15 years... But still.

The idea that it should be half the price of magic kingdom is a lack of understanding...from my perspective. There is a context which sadly flys over people's heads.

Maybe they should fill it with more useless disney giftshop, princess meet and greets, bad food character buffets, and bibbiddi bobbity Honey boo boo boutiques?
That'll "fix" it.
 
My post was in response to another general observation that " Nothing happens in the 3rd grade in October that can't be missed...".

It can and does in certainschool districts as their schools have become more like mini prisons than places to educate children.

I'll still stand by that and reject the acceptance of "mini prisons"

Nothing happens in the 3rd grade...details at 11
 

EPCOT is still the most ambitious, innovative "amusement" park ever constructed...

It has not been well taken care of in the last 15 years... But still.

The idea that it should be half the price of magic kingdom is a lack of understanding...from my perspective. There is a context which sadly flys over people's heads.

Maybe if should fill it with more useless disney giftshop, princess meet and greets, bad food character buffets, and bibbiddi bobbity Honey boo boo boutiques?
That'll "fix" it.

I agree. Epcot has always been my favorite park. It *is* anecdotal, but it was the emptiest park for the length of our stay July 13-21 this past summer. The WS restaurants were ghost-towns. We made ADRs at three of them and there was no need to. Epcot is cratering...close behind is AK(restaurants empty at traditionally HOT times) and DHS.

MK was the only park that seemed commercially "healthy".
 
Exactly! I'd rather (and do!) for the money stay at the Swan or the Waldorf any day! Disney could make a lot more money off me if they'd step up their game...I'd be willing to pay a premium for premium service. I can get an amazing suite and town care service from the Grand Cypress for less than a stay at CR, which is a shame. I grew up there and would be willing to pay premium if it was a premium...still love WDW!

And in the 70s you got premium service for a premium price. Not anymore.
I think one reason for that is we have been dumbed down to accepting so so service.
 
And in the 70s you got premium service for a premium price. Not anymore.
I think one reason for that is we have been dumbed down to accepting so so service.

Agree...consumers have gotten progressively less selective and become far worse customers because of it.

That's a reflection of credit use and lower standards in retail goods across the board.

Disney hotels are a fascinating case study. The poly and contemp are 10+ times the price as they were 40 years ago and one of the reasons is the privilege of using the monorail that was just part of the original design...

Now they treat it like lobster soaked in Dom and caviar...what a treat!

And the reason is some whack a doodle suggested giving the hotels titles like "deluxe" and "grand" and slapping timeshares called " villas" onto them. And the biggest joke of "concierge" in human history... I bet the French would try to get the courts to issue a restraining order against using the word if they could.

And everybody falls for it.
 
And in the 70s you got premium service for a premium price. Not anymore.
I think one reason for that is we have been dumbed down to accepting so so service.

Amen, except can that be some of us have been dumbed down? :)
 
And with that they still made a ton of money , had record attendence ! Seems with every disgruntled WDW "veteran" ther are 2 families behind you chomping at the bit to go ! My 2 daughters LOVED the New Fantasyland. When Mine Train opens it will only get that much better. Disney hasn't wanted people to leave thier properties for a looooonnnggg time now, not just with the FP+ system. Who can blame them ? Same with any store owner , the longer you stay the more likely you'll spend. Sounds like you need a couple years away, to refresh . When I went in the 70's no way could I afford $50 for the Poly so staggeringly expensive is all relative.

Why so defensive? And who said I was disgruntled? Saw you not my last sentence that reiterated the fact that I loved going to WDW? I think you're missing my point - and I guess that's my fault for not making it more clearly.

The point here is that Disney is running on the momentum of the past. And businesses with that much headroom can go a long time on that momentum. The problem is that by the time they realize that momentum has been exhausted, rather than enhanced and perpetuated with new, fresh, compelling offerings, it's way too late. Of course Disney is raking in big park profits and attendance - but, at the same time, Disney is trading its brand value for commoditization, which is precisely what the short-term bean counters want, but its shown to be detrimental for long-term brand health if you rely on it in perpetuity.

Look at it this way. Yes, they spent a ton on New Fantasyland. And, to be sure, its fresh and new and attractive merely because its new and attractive. But is there anything truly Disney distinctive there? Not just allusions to a few movie characters, but something as iconic as, say, Cinderella's Castle? Or Spaceship Earth? Something that just says "Disney" that compels people to go there? Not based on what I've seen myself, the reactions of my own kids, or the reactions of many other observers here and elsewhere. There's some attractive forced-perspective mountains, some nice scenery, and yes, a pending new ride. Very nice. But compelling? Not to me.

By extension, when a company starts trading on its history, it cannot do so indefinitely. Look at any big company that was deemed "too big to fail." IBM nearly failed because they assumed everyone would "always" buy IBM, until they didn't. Everyone assumed everyone would "always" buy GM, until they didn't. Some companies, like IBM, learn the lesson, and figure out a way to reinvent themselves. Others, like GM, flush their brand goodwill down the toilet, go bankrupt, and (worst case) rely on public money to bail out their own short-sightedness.

Will Disney recognize what they are doing and how they are spending that corporate "brand" capital right now? Yes, as you state, they're making big dollars and attendance numbers. But their decision to craft a situation wherein it is more difficult to leave the park necessarily implies they don't want to invest in infrastructure and attractions that compel people to stay. That's the essence of resting on your laurels - which is a far different thing from a grocery store owner wanting you to go down the high-profit aisle before you hit the bread counter. Maybe Disney will pull it off, and all the other parks and attractions that seem to have a more contemporary methodology are all going to fail. And maybe, one day, people will start buying Oldsmobiles again....oh, wait....

Telling someone to "decompress" and "take a couple of years off" makes it sound like Disney is a job, not a vacation destination, and the consequent expectation is for me to accept and abide whatever Disney does, and make prior visits where superior performance was experienced seem distant and less relevant, so as to make the slowly lowering standards more acceptable. Surely you don't mean that.

No "disgruntled Disney vet" here. Just recognizing a trend. It's up to Disney to recognize, if they ever do, how much they are reliving the history of other big companies that followed a similar corporate path.
 
Look at it this way. Yes, they spent a ton on New Fantasyland. And, to be sure, its fresh and new and attractive merely because its new and attractive. But is there anything truly Disney distinctive there? Not just allusions to a few movie characters, but something as iconic as, say, Cinderella's Castle? Or Spaceship Earth? Something that just says "Disney" that compels people to go there? Not based on what I've seen myself, the reactions of my own kids, or the reactions of many other observers here and elsewhere. There's some attractive forced-perspective mountains, some nice scenery, and yes, a pending new ride. Very nice. But compelling? Not to me.

Re long term versus short term...That is so evident in Beast's castle. Imagine if Disney had really built another castle instead of a box with a castle on top? That would have been awesome, and something for the long term.
 
Re long term versus short term...That is so evident in Beast's castle. Imagine if Disney had really built another castle instead of a box with a castle on top? That would have been awesome, and something for the long term.

In Disney's defence...I would argue that Fantasyland never *was* compelling. In fact, it was always the least impressive area in the Magic Kingdom. Making it the premeire spot in the park is quite a feat, imho. we loved it and wait with great anticipation for the Seven Dwarves Mine Train.
 
Telling someone to "decompress" and "take a couple of years off" makes it sound like Disney is a job, not a vacation destination, and the consequent expectation is for me to accept and abide whatever Disney does, and make prior visits where superior performance was experienced seem distant and less relevant, so as to make the slowly lowering standards more acceptable. Surely you don't mean that.
I appreciate all of your points but I really appreciate this comment. It seems that Disney being popular makes any criticism somehow unfair to some of the fans. I'm a big fan and have been for many years but I can see the deterioration and don't get the constant need to deny those changes. Yes, people do still go and it seems to be a rite of passage for families now but that doesn't mean that Disney isn't on a dangerous track as you said.
 
Then you're falling into the trap...

And the trap is:

Kids are bombarded with work at an earlier age than is healthy so they can "advance"... And get a full ride to Yale (instead of the $500,000 it will cost in 15 years) so that they will get one of the 1,000 jobs available for the graduating class of 10 million in 2025...

Making $38,500 per year.

This is the insanity that our education system has become (nj is a leader in educational insanity)...and it's nuts because it ignores nature.

Brains only do what they were genetically pre-programmed to do... They ultimately fall somewhere on the spectrum and that only can be minimally modified.

So the point?

Zeros in third grade? that's real tough... Laughably so.

Take them to EPCOT and spend a half a day in morocco... Maybe something will actually be learned.


What about teaching a child the lesson of being responsible and doing what they are supposed to do?

Yeah a zero in third grade may not be that big of a deal, but those test and papers are commitments.

I've got 3 years before my oldest starts school, we are planning our next vacations to fall inside the school schedule so that we can enjoy that time of the year for the last time for a long time. I don't plan on taking my kids out of school for a vacation, to me it sends the wrong message.
 
Why so defensive? And who said I was disgruntled? Saw you not my last sentence that reiterated the fact that I loved going to WDW? I think you're missing my point - and I guess that's my fault for not making it more clearly.

The point here is that Disney is running on the momentum of the past. And businesses with that much headroom can go a long time on that momentum. The problem is that by the time they realize that momentum has been exhausted, rather than enhanced and perpetuated with new, fresh, compelling offerings, it's way too late. Of course Disney is raking in big park profits and attendance - but, at the same time, Disney is trading its brand value for commoditization, which is precisely what the short-term bean counters want, but its shown to be detrimental for long-term brand health if you rely on it in perpetuity.

Look at it this way. Yes, they spent a ton on New Fantasyland. And, to be sure, its fresh and new and attractive merely because its new and attractive. But is there anything truly Disney distinctive there? Not just allusions to a few movie characters, but something as iconic as, say, Cinderella's Castle? Or Spaceship Earth? Something that just says "Disney" that compels people to go there? Not based on what I've seen myself, the reactions of my own kids, or the reactions of many other observers here and elsewhere. There's some attractive forced-perspective mountains, some nice scenery, and yes, a pending new ride. Very nice. But compelling? Not to me.

By extension, when a company starts trading on its history, it cannot do so indefinitely. Look at any big company that was deemed "too big to fail." IBM nearly failed because they assumed everyone would "always" buy IBM, until they didn't. Everyone assumed everyone would "always" buy GM, until they didn't. Some companies, like IBM, learn the lesson, and figure out a way to reinvent themselves. Others, like GM, flush their brand goodwill down the toilet, go bankrupt, and (worst case) rely on public money to bail out their own short-sightedness.

Will Disney recognize what they are doing and how they are spending that corporate "brand" capital right now? Yes, as you state, they're making big dollars and attendance numbers. But their decision to craft a situation wherein it is more difficult to leave the park necessarily implies they don't want to invest in infrastructure and attractions that compel people to stay. That's the essence of resting on your laurels - which is a far different thing from a grocery store owner wanting you to go down the high-profit aisle before you hit the bread counter. Maybe Disney will pull it off, and all the other parks and attractions that seem to have a more contemporary methodology are all going to fail. And maybe, one day, people will start buying Oldsmobiles again....oh, wait....

Telling someone to "decompress" and "take a couple of years off" makes it sound like Disney is a job, not a vacation destination, and the consequent expectation is for me to accept and abide whatever Disney does, and make prior visits where superior performance was experienced seem distant and less relevant, so as to make the slowly lowering standards more acceptable. Surely you don't mean that.

No "disgruntled Disney vet" here. Just recognizing a trend. It's up to Disney to recognize, if they ever do, how much they are reliving the history of other big companies that followed a similar corporate path.


And Kodak
 
And Kodak

That is a bit different in that the digital environment replaced film and printing pictures. Kodak is much more in the AT&T boat that technological evolution made their core product(s) obsolete. But technological evolution could well enter into the equation of Disney's animatronics vs what Universal is doing in the modern day digital and computer generated realm.
 
All the parks were busy in August.

LOL...thank you Minniesgal for bringing the discussion back to the original topic! By chance, did you notice how crowded the table-service restaurants were at the three parks other than the MK( since I'm already certain MK's were near capacity)?
 
LOL...thank you Minniesgal for bringing the discussion back to the original topic! By chance, did you notice how crowded the table-service restaurants were at the three parks other than the MK( since I'm already certain MK's were near capacity)?

We were at Via Napoli in Epcot and there wasn't an empty table. We don't do TS in either HS or AK but I can tell you the lines for the rides were massive. Totally what I would expect for August I. Fact I would say HS was busier than I am used to.

Sorry I can't comment further in TS but we tend to eat at resorts rather than parks.
 




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