Epcot, AK and DHS have been slow all summer?

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

We were at Via Napoli in Epcot and there wasn't an empty table. We don't do TS in either HS or AK but I can tell you the lines for the rides were massive. Totally what I would expect for August I. Fact I would say HS was busier than I am used to.

Sorry I can't comment further in TS but we tend to eat at resorts rather than parks.

How busy were the TS restaurants at the resorts? We ate at Kona for dinner our first night at the Poly in July and there were only about 4 other families there with us.

 

[richmo]

LOL...thank you Minniesgal for bringing the discussion back to the original topic! By chance, did you notice how crowded the table-service restaurants were at the three parks other than the MK( since I'm already certain MK's were near capacity)?

On the ones I could comment:
- San Angel Inn (I think 7:30ish on Aug 11) - Seemed to be full; they were telling walkups about a 90 minute wait.
- Sci-Fi, as I mentioned earlier, on the 10th totally booked; I don't know if they were taking walkups, but I couldn't change my reservation that day
- Chefs de France had reservations for lunch at 2:00; arrived about a half hour early and there was no problem getting seated. Remained about half full until a big t-storm came up, then it somehow got busy.
- Via Napoli (7:30ish reservations on the 9th?) - seemed mostly full; but not so much that walkups were getting scared off

 

[ParrotBill]

We were at WDW August 21 to 31.

We found MK and HS to still be crowded some days... while EPCOT and AK seemed "empty" with short lines. MK was very variable and I even heard some CMs discussing how odd it was that MK was wall to wall people one night and the next it was a lot less crowded (but evening rain had chased many out.)

We noticed that restaurants were just not full. Only Chef Mickey's was at capacity. Every other place was accepting walk-ups as we arrived and as we departed. Teppan Edo was full but a very small number of people waiting compared to the past.

I attribute this to two reasons: Free dining was not in effect in late August, and the online ADR reservation system has been messed up all summer. I cannot tell you how many hours I spent trying to get ADRs online and then having to call. And then, the system offers limited options: offering poor choices making it seem like the good ADRs are all taken. But when we got there, it was clearly not the case.

I just now remembered this happened to me 2 years ago, and I actually asked the manager of Artist Point why I had trouble getting a table for 4 and yet the restaurant was not more than 1/4 full. He told me they were very unhappy with the ADR system and that I should call WDW and ask to speak with the Artist Point manager if I have that trouble again (making ADRs well ahead that is.)

 

[Minniesgal]

How busy were the TS restaurants at the resorts? We ate at Kona for dinner our first night at the Poly in July and there were only about 4 other families there with us.

As full as ever. Kona was fully booked, Ohana was fully booked as was Chef Mickeys. We didn't notice anything unusual.

 

[manning]

That is a bit different in that the digital environment replaced film and printing pictures. Kodak is much more in the AT&T boat that technological evolution made their core product(s) obsolete. But technological evolution could well enter into the equation of Disney's animatronics vs what Universal is doing in the modern day digital and computer generated realm.

Not really. They failed to adjust to the coming thing. Remember Fuji film? Well the vast majority of their business is....digital cameras.

 

[WILDERNESS FAN 55]

Why so defensive? And who said I was disgruntled? Saw you not my last sentence that reiterated the fact that I loved going to WDW? I think you're missing my point - and I guess that's my fault for not making it more clearly.

The point here is that Disney is running on the momentum of the past. And businesses with that much headroom can go a long time on that momentum. The problem is that by the time they realize that momentum has been exhausted, rather than enhanced and perpetuated with new, fresh, compelling offerings, it's way too late. Of course Disney is raking in big park profits and attendance - but, at the same time, Disney is trading its brand value for commoditization, which is precisely what the short-term bean counters want, but its shown to be detrimental for long-term brand health if you rely on it in perpetuity.

Look at it this way. Yes, they spent a ton on New Fantasyland. And, to be sure, its fresh and new and attractive merely because its new and attractive. But is there anything truly Disney distinctive there? Not just allusions to a few movie characters, but something as iconic as, say, Cinderella's Castle? Or Spaceship Earth? Something that just says "Disney" that compels people to go there? Not based on what I've seen myself, the reactions of my own kids, or the reactions of many other observers here and elsewhere. There's some attractive forced-perspective mountains, some nice scenery, and yes, a pending new ride. Very nice. But compelling? Not to me.

By extension, when a company starts trading on its history, it cannot do so indefinitely. Look at any big company that was deemed "too big to fail." IBM nearly failed because they assumed everyone would "always" buy IBM, until they didn't. Everyone assumed everyone would "always" buy GM, until they didn't. Some companies, like IBM, learn the lesson, and figure out a way to reinvent themselves. Others, like GM, flush their brand goodwill down the toilet, go bankrupt, and (worst case) rely on public money to bail out their own short-sightedness.

Will Disney recognize what they are doing and how they are spending that corporate "brand" capital right now? Yes, as you state, they're making big dollars and attendance numbers. But their decision to craft a situation wherein it is more difficult to leave the park necessarily implies they don't want to invest in infrastructure and attractions that compel people to stay. That's the essence of resting on your laurels - which is a far different thing from a grocery store owner wanting you to go down the high-profit aisle before you hit the bread counter. Maybe Disney will pull it off, and all the other parks and attractions that seem to have a more contemporary methodology are all going to fail. And maybe, one day, people will start buying Oldsmobiles again....oh, wait....

Telling someone to "decompress" and "take a couple of years off" makes it sound like Disney is a job, not a vacation destination, and the consequent expectation is for me to accept and abide whatever Disney does, and make prior visits where superior performance was experienced seem distant and less relevant, so as to make the slowly lowering standards more acceptable. Surely you don't mean that.

No "disgruntled Disney vet" here. Just recognizing a trend. It's up to Disney to recognize, if they ever do, how much they are reliving the history of other big companies that followed a similar corporate path.

Hard to call increasing profits AND attendence a bad trend ! All I know is every trip there I see something new. They have added theme parks -rides-hotels-water parks....always enhancing even in down years. Do they all work in my opinion? No. Doesn't mean it's the end of the line.
Disney has ALWAYS driven the bus (Orlando economy) and ALWAYS will. Without them there will be no universal/comcast.
And sorry, you sounded disgruntled to me. My bad. Hope you have many many more trips to WDW.....See ya there !

 

[WMorganS]

@Farah

All the parks...or just the MK?

I was shocked at how the Epcot retaurants were so empty with servers standing around with nothing to do at dinner service when July is supposed to be "peak season". We were at Sci-Fi at 5:30 PM and half of the "cars" empty throughout our experience. We were looking ar each other and saying "What's happening to Disney"? The answer can't be good. Sci-Fi used to be the hottest ticket around(that'ds why we got ADR's 4 months ahead of time).

Well... it could be the restaurant in SciFi's case. That's one restaurant we're not going back to.

 

[DanInMN]

The point here is that Disney is running on the momentum of the past.

I agree with much of your thinking. Disney has a few challenges:

- They have focused on how to manage crowds with existing capacity (FP, FP+, off season incentives, ADRs) but really need to increase capacity. Waiting for hours to take 1 minute ride is not a good guest experience. Having to reserve a 1 minute ride 2 months ahead of time is just silly.
- I like the legacy attractions, but I'm an old fart. Young families will relate to newer things, and many more new attractions are needed to prevent becoming stale.
- WDW has neglected closed assets like Discovery Island, Pleasure Island, River Country, Horizons, Wonders of Life, and Odyssey restaurant. Epcot is stating to look a little like the abandoned "Splendid China".
- Despite the enormous size of WDW, DHS and AK parks are only worth a half day visit. They desperately need more stuff.
- Some efforts have been half-hearted at best. Toon Town (now gone), and it's replacement the circus section of New Fantasyland, look too much like a cheap carnival. Not up to WDW standards.

Efforts to keep guests on property have been clever and very successful. The cost of tickets decreases with the number of days purchased, making the incremental cost of a non-Disney park much higher. The free DME eliminates the need for a rental car, which also limits access to off site locations while reducing the cost differential between on-site and off-site hotels. Simply brilliant on Disney's part!

We really enjoy WDW, and have no interest in Sea World or Universal. But we are not really the WDW target market (our kids are grown). Disney has a lot going for them, and a lot to do. The bean counters should step aside and allow Imagineers to do their magic, while the company is doing well and has the resources to do what needs to be done.

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

We were at WDW August 21 to 31.

We found MK and HS to still be crowded some days... while EPCOT and AK seemed "empty" with short lines. MK was very variable and I even heard some CMs discussing how odd it was that MK was wall to wall people one night and the next it was a lot less crowded (but evening rain had chased many out.)

We noticed that restaurants were just not full. Only Chef Mickey's was at capacity. Every other place was accepting walk-ups as we arrived and as we departed. Teppan Edo was full but a very small number of people waiting compared to the past.

I attribute this to two reasons: Free dining was not in effect in late August, and the online ADR reservation system has been messed up all summer. I cannot tell you how many hours I spent trying to get ADRs online and then having to call. And then, the system offers limited options: offering poor choices making it seem like the good ADRs are all taken. But when we got there, it was clearly not the case.

I just now remembered this happened to me 2 years ago, and I actually asked the manager of Artist Point why I had trouble getting a table for 4 and yet the restaurant was not more than 1/4 full. He told me they were very unhappy with the ADR system and that I should call WDW and ask to speak with the Artist Point manager if I have that trouble again (making ADRs well ahead that is.)

Parrot B...thanks for the heads up concerning the ADR system. I had not heard anything about it having major problems this summer. That may explain *some* of the empty tables in all of the non-MK restaurants, I guess.

 

[Golden Rose]

We used to be a family that traveled without children to WDW, and now we're a family that travels with young children. We're DVC members and go once or twice a year almost every year, so both my kids have been to WDW many times. The 2 year old already has a few preferences, and the 8 year old has strong preferences.

My kids don't really like DHS much, and DS regularly encourages us to skip it. The only things the kids really enjoy at DHS are the Honey, I Shrunk the Kids Playground (although they have never seen or heard of the movie it was based on), Disney Junior on Stage (DS has mostly outgrown it, but he will go along and sing with it to encourage his sister, and I think he secretly still enjoys it a bit), and TSM (which we really don't do often because the fast passes are generally gone by the time we make it there.) DD likes the Voyage of the Little Mermaid, but DS really doesn't. DS likes drawing with the animator in the animation exhibit, but DD isn't able to do it yet. So, basically, there is very little we enjoy as a family there. We skipped DHS entirely on our last two trips. Cars Land or an expanded Pixar area would have gotten us in the gate. Both my kids would enjoy that, and I suspect DH and I would as well. Star Wars Land will be a draw for us, and we can't wait to see what they do with it. I hope they do it justice. Until they do something new, we're probably going to skip it any trip where we don't have annual passes. It just isn't worth the time or money to us in its current state, except maybe during the holiday season to see the Osborne Lights.

My kids are both animal lovers, so we usually spend a fair amount of time at AK. We enjoy the animals enough that we find enough to do every trip, and my kids both absolutely adore the Boneyard. We don't mind the park in its current state. I can see why many people think of it as a half day park, and why it could use more attractions, but, for us, it is still a must do. If Avatarland happens, we'll probably find things to enjoy about it, too.

Epcot used to be our favorite park. We practically have to drag our kids there, except, surprisingly during the Flower and Garden Festival. (We love Food and Wine, of course, but our kids barely put up with trailing Mom and Dad from booth to booth, and would rather be back at the resort pool.) The Flower and Garden Festival adds not only the stunning topiaries, which my kids enjoy, but also interesting playgrounds. Sure, there are a few things the kids enjoy year round (The Seas with Nemo and The Land pavilions,) but Epcot isn't a favorite with our younger generation. I loved Epcot as a kid, and I'm certainly let down by what it has become. I'd like to see another international pavilion or 3 added, but I'd really love to see them improve the Imagination Pavilion (which it looks like may be happening) and do something with the Horizons and the Wonders of Life pavilions.

I'm not surprised the Magic Kingdom is far more crowded than the other parks right now. On our most recent trip, my kids kept asking for more time in the Magic Kingdom. While I know some are less than thrilled with New Fantasyland, my kids both were excited by the Tangled bathroom and rest area, the Beauty and the Beast area, and the new Little Mermaid queue and ride. (They did not care for the new circus area and couldn't wait to leave it, however.) The kids enjoyed doing their old favorites, and found the new additions magical. We spent more time in the MK last trip than we ever have on any of our previous trips. (Admittedly, part of this is because DD is into princesses now, and has learned to voice her opinions frequently and vocally.)

If my kids could plot the perfect WDW trip right now, it would be something like 2 hours in DHS, 4 hours in Epcot (except during the Flower and Garden Festival, when they will gladly spend all day, and maybe even 2 days), a day or two in AK, and 2 or 3 days in MK. If DH and I were doing it without the kids, it would be more like 4 hours in DHS, 1 day in Epcot (except during Food & Wine, where it would be 5 nights in Epcot ), 1 day in AK, and maybe 4 hours in MK. We all seem to enjoy spending more time in the resorts now.

 

[pilferk]

That is a bit different in that the digital environment replaced film and printing pictures. Kodak is much more in the AT&T boat that technological evolution made their core product(s) obsolete. But technological evolution could well enter into the equation of Disney's animatronics vs what Universal is doing in the modern day digital and computer generated realm.

Technology was the impetus for the market change. But it wasn't the reason Kodak failed, ultimately.

Kodak actually had some of the better early digital cameras. They had the r and d, and the product portfolio, to exist in the digital age. They had patents enough to keep them afloat. They had the financials to get them through the transition. Witness Fuji, who ended up surpassing Kodak by focusing on the digital market. Not just cameras, but their photo printing equip totally eased the transition for retailers and in house film processors. They listened to, and catered to, the market,

Instead, Kodak leadership completely misread the market. They tried to lead the market by the nose...with product development focused on things like APS (what a disaster THAT was)...and looked at digital as a niche and then fad segment, instead of adapting to it. They insisted that film processing would be eternal, and that quality would always be better with film. That wasn't technology sinking them, it was short sightedness, and believing their band was big enough to lead the market in the direction they wanted, rather than listening to their customers. Even when the writing was on the wall, Kodak still refused to budge.

It isn't a one to one, but there are certainly some parrellels to Disney in there. The difference is...given current disney leadership, I think they are more reactive than Kodak was. They are slow, for sure, sometimes glacial, but they are not immovable like Kodak was.

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

Well...from what we know right now it seems that there are at least three expansions in the hopper.

1.) Disney Springs(DTD)
2.) "Star Wars Land"(DHS)
3.) Avatarland(AK)

DHS and DTD really can use these "shots in the arm"...but what about Epcot? It's the park that seems the most empty(I know it's size has a lot to do with that perception)...but...it's the park(particularly Future World) that seems the most neglected and abandoned. Word *is* that something is going to happen with the hardly-visited Imagination pavilion also I've seen posts that they may Soarin' into a new global experience. We'll see...but Epcot needs a LOT more attention in the coming years as it is the park that is second only to the MK in most peoples eyes.

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

Heck...Epcot is a monorail park with more table-service restaurants than any other park(by far)! *Why* is there no urgency with Disney while Comcast is aggressively pouring hundreds of millions into Universal Resort?!?!

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

Well...this thread is just about done. Thank you ALL that gave their own perceptions about how busy(or not) all of the non-MK parks were and their restaurants and resorts were.

I think in total that we see that the non-MK parks and restaurants are suffering a substantial decline in patronage. My initial perception seems to be accurate.

If anyone else has any more observations pertaining to this topic...please feel free to post!

 

[lockedoutlogic]

What about teaching a child the lesson of being responsible and doing what they are supposed to do?

Yeah a zero in third grade may not be that big of a deal, but those test and papers are commitments.

I've got 3 years before my oldest starts school, we are planning our next vacations to fall inside the school schedule so that we can enjoy that time of the year for the last time for a long time. I don't plan on taking my kids out of school for a vacation, to me it sends the wrong message.

To each there own...

Where I'm at... The school calendar is bloated with ridiculous breaks, observances, and functions...the process of a school year is already bogged down and drags.

And I don't think it produces a particularly good product based on the money spent. So that's what colors my opinion on this.

And my own experience...which was alot of time wasted without much stimulation.

Just my take.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I appreciate all of your points but I really appreciate this comment. It seems that Disney being popular makes any criticism somehow unfair to some of the fans. I'm a big fan and have been for many years but I can see the deterioration and don't get the constant need to deny those changes. Yes, people do still go and it seems to be a rite of passage for families now but that doesn't mean that Disney isn't on a dangerous track as you said.

Here here

 

[lockedoutlogic]

That is a bit different in that the digital environment replaced film and printing pictures. Kodak is much more in the AT&T boat that technological evolution made their core product(s) obsolete. But technological evolution could well enter into the equation of Disney's animatronics vs what Universal is doing in the modern day digital and computer generated realm.

Kodak refused to embrace digital until there was no point...choosing to be content to rest on what they made off the "process".

A very cautionary tale that had been printed and pointed to many times over the last few years...

The reality is: if there is a revolution in your trade... The sooner you embrace it, the better.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I just now remembered this happened to me 2 years ago, and I actually asked the manager of Artist Point why I had trouble getting a table for 4 and yet the restaurant was not more than 1/4 full. He told me they were very unhappy with the ADR system and that I should call WDW and ask to speak with the Artist Point manager if I have that trouble again (making ADRs well ahead that is.)

This is another ugly face to the dining plan and the hard reservation system...

They reduce
Staffing and restaurant capacity based on advance booking... Saving pennies and limiting the options you have with your $5000 vacation and $100 day tickets.

We're all to blame... Living it up on the DDP and not realizing it was always meant to be a weapon

 

[beer dave]

To each there own...

Where I'm at... The school calendar is bloated with ridiculous breaks, observances, and functions...the process of a school year is already bogged down and drags.

And I don't think it produces a particularly good product based on the money spent. So that's what colors my opinion on this.

And my own experience...which was alot of time wasted without much stimulation.

Just my take.

Yeah-- my girls are dancers and one takes taekwondo and are in dual enrollment-- stop wasting their time and my money with gym class.

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

Anyone else that has been to WDW within the last few weeks that has anything to share about how busy any of the parks(especially the three non-MK parks), resorts, resort restaurants and/or table service restaurants in the parks were?

It would be great to hear from you!