Educating the uninitiated

[ray3127]

An excellent post from the 100-point minimum thread got me thinking, both about my personal experience and what could be done to help others. @CraigInPA said the following:

I think we're in our own echo chamber here on disboards. We're all savvy owners, understand (and often purchased via) resale, and do the math to determine what each of our break even point may be for a direct-for-blue-card-purchase. However, we are a tiny minority of DVC owners.

The typical DVC purchaser hops into a van, gets driven to the sample center, wanders around, and has ice cream. They expect to get some fastpasses at the end of the tour. They have never heard of resale. If they are impressed by the DVC presentation, they then discuss the actual purchase. That's where the guide says "I can sell you a 75 point contract at AKV if you really want it, but you'd get *member benefits* if you bought 100 points. At 100 points, you'd get another 2 nights a year, and it's only $9 more a month on your finance plan!

Especially with the Internet at one's fingertips, I cannot imagine people buying into this without having researched it and stumbling across the resources like DIS Boards. But I completely agree that this is (unfortunately) the case, and that we are in fact a tiny minority of DVC owners.

I suppose I should care less about what others do, but I teach finance at a local university for a living and financial literacy is near & dear to my heart. I like helping people make better financial decisions, and if they are considering DVC, then they really need to consult resources like these boards.

A couple stories:

1. In February we were on the Disney Fantasy, and I was amazed at how many times I crossed paths with fellow passengers coming to/from an individual DVC sales meeting. There were several people that I later saw with the new DVC swag, clearly having just become a member. I wanted to stop them and ask if they had heard about the resale market and done their research. I didn't, and don't believe I ever would offer such unsolicited advice... but the thought seriously crossed my mind on multiple occasions.

2. In June we were about to leave Be Our Guest when a woman approached us because we had the DVC Member backpack on. She asked us about DVC, and said they went on a tour and were thinking about buying. I told her that we loved it, but had purchased all but 75 of our points via the resale market. She had no idea what it was. I briefly explained it, then told her "D-I-S-B-O-A-R-D-S-dot-C-O-M".... Come here, check out all of those boards, ask questions, and do your research before buying.

3. I ran into some people in my neighborhood that happen to be DVC members. They own a couple Poly contracts, because that's what DVC was selling at the time. When I told them we bought our points resale, they said "but there's restrictions on those points, right?" I helped educate them about the resale market, which they previously had very wrong misconceptions about.

So I guess what I'm getting to is, is there anything we can do to help 'spread the word' about the resources that are out there and the kind of analysis that ought to be done before committing to a 50-year timeshare?

Has anybody else ever had the thought to catch a stranger who appears interested in DVC and ask if they've heard about the resale market? That would be completely inappropriate, right? (Unless they ask you first, of course.)

I hesitate to butt in, because I have a saying about unsolicited advice ... but when there's so much misinformation regarding DVC out there (or simply a lack of understanding), don't you want to "do something"? I suppose that's why many of you post on these boards, which are a truly invaluable resource. But I was just wondering if anybody else had similar thoughts/experiences to mine.

 

[Networth]

My personal take on issues like this, including wether it’s buying a house, a car, doing remodeling, taking a vacation etc. is to leave my own opinion out of it. It’s not really my business and doesn’t have a direct effect on me in anyway.

If I was asked for ask for advise, I would be more than happy to help. However, it is not my responsibility to decide what people do with their money. If they make a large financial choice without doing basic research, crunching numbers, and careful thought that is their problem, not mine. Just my 2 cents, for what it’s worth.

 

[han22735]

My personal take on issues like this, including wether it’s buying a house, a car, doing remodeling, taking a vacation etc. is to leave my own opinion out of it. It’s not really my business and doesn’t have a direct effect on me in anyway.

If I was asked for ask for advise, I would be more than happy to help. However, it is not my responsibility to decide what people do with their money. If they make a large financial choice without doing basic research, crunching numbers, and careful thought that is their problem, not mine. Just my 2 cents, for what it’s worth.

I feel the same way. I have friends that are going to disney for the first time and knowing we have been many times they haven't asked for any advice so I don't plan on sharing anything. Same with DVC. If asked I would gladly share and provide a great education on the product. If not I'm not budding in.

 

[stuartsong]

I provide my opinion when asked. I say opinion and not advise because everyone circumstances are different. What may be good for me may not be for others.

 

[Deb & Bill]

We bought our points on our first trip after watching the DVC channel on television. But we only had OKW, BWV, HHI and VB to choose from and we loved the look of OKW and knew we could afford it. We paid $50 a point and our stay at the Polynesian was put towards our deposit. And we sold our first year points back to DVC as part of the deal.

 

[ray3127]

I wasn't really referring to sharing an "opinion" or what works for me. I agree with the stated comments, and won't give anybody unsolicited advice. Their business is their business.

But so much misinformation / misunderstanding exists surrounding DVC, I just *hope* everybody knows some basic FACTS before buying in. Such as:

"Are you aware there's a resale market?"

"Do you know you can split up your contracts (i.e. three 75-point contracts instead of one 225-point contract), which would better protect your investment?"

"Do you know what availability is really like at 7 months?"

These aren't opinions, they are matters of fact. I'm not suggesting telling people what to do; more of of a "hey, did you know about this?"

I just want the best for people, whether they've asked for help on the DIS or not. I can't imagine nobody else wants to help. Again, not saying it's right to butt in... that's something I would not do. But I still feel for them, and I hope they are going in eyes wide open.

Sorry for the apparently dumb post.

 

[ELMC]

Not a dumb post at all. I think we all share the sense of wanting to educate - why else would we spend so much of our time on these boards? I think there is a way to let people know they have a choice without lecturing them, but you're right it needs to be subtle. When asked about DVC even on the most superficial level, I typically tell people that I bought resale at BWV and BLT. If they want to ask questions based on that extra little piece of information I'm happy to answer. And if they're inclined not to want to know, they'll simply glance over the word resale in my statement and go along with their plan. You can also say something vague like "I love my DVC - there are so many different options". People who are inclined to think and who may have just been told that their only option was a DEC UY at Riviera will likely ask you to expound on a comment like that. And there's your chance. And if they don't, well they were probably not likely to listen to any "advice" you would have wanted to share anyway. You can lead a horse to water, so they say.

Here's the thing. Let's say you intervened ten times when you came across people who were considering purchasing. How many do you think would be thankful, and how many do you think would be offended? People get trapped by timeshare purchases all the time. To be frank, I think Disney is the best of the bunch when it comes to exit strategies for those who made an ill-advised purchase. I understand what you are thinking and feeling, and maybe you can satisfy your desire to help by participating on these boards. But maybe going out and proselytizing is a bit too much.

 

[jarestel]

The unfortunate truth is that even if everyone in the world bought resale, the number of resale contracts available on the market is a small percentage of the number of overall contracts sold each year. In other words, there just aren't enough resale contracts available to satisfy the demand for DVC.

One thing we tend to overlook here while we're congratulating ourselves for being so smart and financially aware is that in order for us to demonstrate our above average wits by purchasing resale, someone had to have bought a direct contract and then decided to sell it. It seems like stating the obvious, but no direct buyers equals no resale buyers. It's a symbiotic relationship where resale buyers actually need direct buyers in order to exist.

So I couldn't disagree more with the premise that we have to educate or enlighten the uninitiated who purchase direct.

 

[Madame]

The unfortunate truth is that even if everyone in the world bought resale, the number of resale contracts available on the market is a small percentage of the number of overall contracts sold each year. In other words, there just aren't enough resale contracts available to satisfy the demand for DVC.

One thing we tend to overlook here while we're congratulating ourselves for being so smart and financially aware is that in order for us to demonstrate our above average wits by purchasing resale, someone had to have bought a direct contract and then decided to sell it. It seems like stating the obvious, but no direct buyers equals no resale buyers. It's a symbiotic relationship where resale buyers actually need direct buyers in order to exist.

So I couldn't disagree more with the premise that we have to educate or enlighten the "ignorant" masses who purchase direct.

But a lot of those direct buyers were smarter/luckier than current resale buyers. They sold for a profit. Direct buy today is a whole different kettle of fish.

When I see FB posts asking about DVC and almost all of the responses are along the lines of « bought 20 years ago, best decision I ever made, I could make money if I sold » I cringe. I usually scroll on by because it’s none of my business, but direct 10-20 years ago and today are not nearly the same thing. It’s unreal how often I see this on other social media sites and it really is a disservice to new buyers.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

To be completely honest.... I purchased direct. I preferred direct. It was my choice. However, it depends on your approach. If you came up to me on the Fantasy after my second DVC contract purchase with swag in hand and just said "Congratulations! Have you heard about resale?" I might have replied "Yes, but this is the route I choose". If you left it there, no harm, no foul. But if you then went on (as many do) about why your way is better than mine, I would get very annoyed, very quickly. I don't like to be preached to.

So it all depends on your approach.

 

[kboo]

When I see FB posts asking about DVC and almost all of the responses are along the lines of « bought 20 years ago, best decision I ever made, I could make money if I sold » I cringe. I usually scroll on by because it’s none of my business, but direct 10-20 years ago and today are not nearly the same thing. It’s unreal how often I see this on other social media sites and it really is a disservice to new buyers.

I feel the same way. We first bought in 2.5 years ago, and it's amazing how much has changed since then.

I do think there are times and reasons still to buy direct, but the analysis is becoming less about $ and more about intangibles that people place different values on.* We did the hybrid approach when it was 25 points - and then bought a LARGE contract direct at Riviera. (broken into smaller contracts, of course!) I was fully informed about the resale restrictions, and had had fully qualified points in my previous resale contracts. It's died down now, but when they first started selling RIV, a lot of us got a fair amount in the DIS of "I don't know why anyone in their right mind would buy RIV direct." It was a little hard to come out in that atmosphere. But it worked for us, and it was a fully informed decision on our part.

*e.g. timing, the resort itself, not wanting to buy RIV resale, proximity to EP/HS, etc.

 

[ray3127]

Appreciate the thoughts, and again want to reiterate that I do not think approaching a stranger about this with unsolicited comments is a good idea. I was simply saying that the thought crossed my mind, largely due to the amount of misinformation that's out there.

Not a dumb post at all. I think we all share the sense of wanting to educate - why else would we spend so much of our time on these boards? I think there is a way to let people know they have a choice without lecturing them, but you're right it needs to be subtle. When asked about DVC even on the most superficial level, I typically tell people that I bought resale at BWV and BLT. If they want to ask questions based on that extra little piece of information I'm happy to answer. And if they're inclined not to want to know, they'll simply glance over the word resale in my statement and go along with their plan. You can also say something vague like "I love my DVC - there are so many different options". People who are inclined to think and who may have just been told that their only option was a DEC UY at Riviera will likely ask you to expound on a comment like that. And there's your chance. And if they don't, well they were probably not likely to listen to any "advice" you would have wanted to share anyway. You can lead a horse to water, so they say.

Here's the thing. Let's say you intervened ten times when you came across people who were considering purchasing. How many do you think would be thankful, and how many do you think would be offended? People get trapped by timeshare purchases all the time. To be frank, I think Disney is the best of the bunch when it comes to exit strategies for those who made an ill-advised purchase. I understand what you are thinking and feeling, and maybe you can satisfy your desire to help by participating on these boards. But maybe going out and proselytizing is a bit too much.

Totally agree... These boards seem are full of people eager to share their opinions to help those in search of information.

And really, I'm not the kind of person to intervene like that. Friends/family? Sure, I'll ask what they're thinking, who they've talked to, what they've researched. But strangers? No, I don't think that's a good idea.

Yet, there are plenty that proselytize about other financial decisions. Again, I'm not advocating for that, but I wonder how people would feel if half the people in the automobile market were not aware there was a "resale" market for used cars, and that they could buy one of those instead of a brand new one. Would people feel more willing to "jump in" and let people know that there are other options? Sure, the used car doesn't come with a factory warranty and has a shorter useful life. But it's cheaper and gets the job done. I don't know, just thinking out loud here.

But in the end I'm with you, and will stick to the boards.

The unfortunate truth is that even if everyone in the world bought resale, the number of resale contracts available on the market is a small percentage of the number of overall contracts sold each year. In other words, there just aren't enough resale contracts available to satisfy the demand for DVC.

One thing we tend to overlook here while we're congratulating ourselves for being so smart and financially aware is that in order for us to demonstrate our above average wits by purchasing resale, someone had to have bought a direct contract and then decided to sell it. It seems like stating the obvious, but no direct buyers equals no resale buyers. It's a symbiotic relationship where resale buyers actually need direct buyers in order to exist.

So I couldn't disagree more with the premise that we have to educate or enlighten the "ignorant" masses who purchase direct.

Hadn't thought of it this way, and I understand where you're coming from. Maybe it's the educator in me, but I just want to help people when/where I can.

But a lot of those direct buyers were smarter/luckier than current resale buyers. They sold for a profit. Direct buy today is a whole different kettle of fish.

When I see FB posts asking about DVC and almost all of the responses are along the lines of « bought 20 years ago, best decision I ever made, I could make money if I sold » I cringe. I usually scroll on by because it’s none of my business, but direct 10-20 years ago and today are not nearly the same thing. It’s unreal how often I see this on other social media sites and it really is a disservice to new buyers.

This bothers me as well. I'm a year into DVC, and from then to now it's not the same animal, let alone 20 years ago.

Maybe I should have said that "I cringe" (like you do) more than anything else. I want to speak up, but won't as it's not really my place.

To be completely honest.... I purchased direct. I preferred direct. It was my choice. However, it depends on your approach. If you came up to me on the Fantasy after my second DVC contract purchase with swag in hand and just said "Congratulations! Have you heard about resale?" I might have replied "Yes, but this is the route I choose". If you left it there, no harm, no foul. But if you then went on (as many do) about why your way is better than mine, I would get very annoyed, very quickly. I don't like to be preached to.

So it all depends on your approach.

You made an informed decision, and that's all I hope people do. No qualms here, and completely agree that the solutions are different for everybody. Heck, we bought 75 direct at BLT in April to get blue card benefits, which is frowned upon here by many! As long as it makes sense to/for me, that's all that matters. But I did go in eyes wide open (as you did).

You did give me an idea, though. As our DVC backpack was a conversation-starter, it might be nice to simply congratulate somebody with new DVC swag. Not even with a probing question about resale--simply "congratulations". And see where the conversation goes, if anywhere.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

You did give me an idea, though. As our DVC backpack was a conversation-starter, it might be nice to simply congratulate somebody with new DVC swag. Not even with a probing question about resale--simply "congratulations". And see where the conversation goes, if anywhere.

See, and that works out really well. Approach someone with SWAG, ask if they purchased or are just thinking about it,. Many may just be considering. Talk about your experiences (good and bad) with DVC and if the opportunity comes up ask if they have heard about and considered resale. Mention that if they purchased right there on the cruise, they can still easily change their minds and look at resale.

That's a natural and friendly and not at all preaching conversation that I think is reasonable.

It works in the parks, too.

 

[lovin'fl]

So I talk Disney and DVC with anyone, and everyone, who will oblige me. I have known of other DVC owners (as well as my very own SIL) and know of folks who are regular WDW go'ers but not DVC. EVERYONE I talk to...they do NOT read these forums or research anything. SIL is the closest to reading as sometimes she will know of rumors or news that comes out but she's not a regular reader (I think she just gets some e-mail updates or something). I have had folks contact me about help planning their trips and I always give them this forum yet they NEVER bother coming here. One recent gal, my old college roommate, wanted help and I sent her some basic info and then sent her a link to here...and she said she was just going to use a travel agent as it was too confusing, too much info. This past weekend I was out with 2 WDW going families, one DVC and one who actually do DVC 1BR units via CRO. We talked a little DVC/WDW but they mostly weren't interested. One family is leaving for a trip this weekend (the CRO peeps) and I was trying to ask her plans, like dining and FP and whatnot, and she pretty much just shrugged. I think folks like us, here on these forums (and specifically the DVC set here and on other DVC forums), are the rarity. So even if told to look into buying DVC via resale...the average person won't be bothered.

 

[kboo]

and one who actually do DVC 1BR units via CRO.

I had some friends of friends ask me some Disney advice. They are renting points (at least there's THAT!) and I suggested that 1br at BLT might work better for their needs than 1br at VGF. It was not about cost. They went with VGF anyway. *shrug*

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

I think a lot of people prefer the convenience, sense of security, and ease of buying direct. They also like the Disney experience. It probably feels pretty good to buy dvc on a ship. The resale process is long, stressful, and not very glamorous. People will pay to avoid that misery. For others, the stress of venturing out on your own into the “unknown” is worth the money saved. (Lol, a bit dramatic, I know.) I would venture that those people are the minority in purchasing dvc as well as in life. Not sure, just a guess. It does not surprise me that the OP has an academic background because I suspect that dvc resale buyers are analytical people. If you research dvc at all, the resale market will pop up. I think most people out there want to remain in the dark on resale. I have spoken to two other direct dvc owners we know about it and they shut the conversation down pretty quickly. I do not think it is a bad thing to talk about it, but it seems like most people just prefer buying direct and that in most cases not knowing about resale is a choice they have made whether they are aware of having made that choice or not.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

But a lot of those direct buyers were smarter/luckier than current resale buyers. They sold for a profit. Direct buy today is a whole different kettle of fish.

When I see FB posts asking about DVC and almost all of the responses are along the lines of « bought 20 years ago, best decision I ever made, I could make money if I sold » I cringe. I usually scroll on by because it’s none of my business, but direct 10-20 years ago and today are not nearly the same thing. It’s unreal how often I see this on other social media sites and it really is a disservice to new buyers.

I wonder if it really is a bad investment. At this point it seems like an unknown. Maybe in 20 years the costs will be so high and Disney will be in so much demand that those purchasing direct contracts today will still make out.

 

[lovin'fl]

I am reminded of this story...about 5 years ago we had neighbors. They were a Brady bunch family with 2 kids each and then 1 kid shared between them. We were living in a high cost of living area and she did in home daycare. His 2 kids were off to college. So money was tight for them. She comes to me and says 'we're taking the little one to Disney World'. SHe was about 5. I say I can rent her a DVC villa, with kitchen/master/W&D, on the cheap. Was willing to do like $1 above my annual dues ($7pp). Told her they could get a 1BR at AKV savannah view or anything available at 7 months (we owned AKV points back then, don't any longer). She replied that her DD was set on the Little Mermaid room at AoA. Okay then. She missed out on a way better set up for a steal of a deal.

 

[CraigInPA]

Earlier this year my wife and I were eating at 'Ohana. The young couple next to us engaged us in conversation because their child was a bit unruly. I guess they thought we could give them "grandfatherly/grandmotherly" advice on how to keep 2 year old Alice engaged in the meal. During our conversation, they asked where we were staying, and we told them BLT, because we are DVC members. They suddenly had 100 questions, because they had casually stopped by the DVC booth at Epcot that day, and avoided the offer to take the tour "because we want to do some research". We told them the good and the bad, and mentioned resale (where most of our points were acquired) when they said DVC seemed "expensive" (probably less so than the huge rock the wife was wearing on her hand). I suggested they look at disboards. My wife told thm to google "DVC resale". At the end of the conversation, the husband said to the wife that they should "read up" before taking a tour. We felt like we did a good thing, but only because they asked.

 

[Growin'upDisney]

Great post. I stumbled upon this just now and it’s exactly what I’m looking for. It’s been years since I made it to the DISboards. we just got back from Hawaii where we went on the DVC tour (friends are DVC members there) and we are contemplating DVC (although not in HI - I’m more interested in FL).

So DISboard were my first stop! So here I am asking for solicited advice!

Are there any former posts or other resources you could point me to which can give me an idea of direct vs resale and how all this works?

I’m very Disney savvy - we live in soCal and hubby just finished 3 years of working on Galaxy’s Edge and we’ve done WDW and cruises. But I’m clueless on DVC. I’d love an insiders perspective.

We are a family of 4 - 2 adults and 2 teenage daughters.
We’d be able to travel in adventure season mostly. We aren’t married to any one tower and would like to try various ones.

We wouldn’t do a ton of cooking in the rooms (mainly breakfast) but like the idea of having “space”.

Bring on the solicited advice