DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[Tatebeck]

Example made up scenario that IMO they could use if they wanted to according to the current Home Resort Rules and Regulations.

Sketchy Member: "Hi I would like to change the lead guest and other guests on this reservation"

Member Services "Okay, I may be able to help you with that. First I need to ask, is this reservation going to be used as a rental?"

Sketchy Member: "Yes, I booked 20 AKV Value Studio trips this year that I don't think I can make it to. So I need to rent."

Member Services: "Unfortunately for rentals members are required to notify us that it is a rental at the time the reservation is made. Since this reservation was made months ago in your name and not as a rental, I am unable to change the lead guest for rental purposes. I will make a note of this, and if you wish to use your vacation points for a rental, you will have to cancel this reservation and make another reservation in the name of your rental guests, then notify us that it is being used as a rental. Thank you and have a magical day!

 

[VGCgroupie]

Example made up scenario that IMO they could use if they wanted to according to the current Home Resort Rules and Regulations.

Sketchy Member: "Hi I would like to change the lead guest and other guests on this reservation"

Member Services "Okay, I may be able to help you with that. First I need to ask, is this reservation going to be used as a rental?"

Sketchy Member: "Yes, I booked 20 AKV Value Studio trips this year that I don't think I can make it to. So I need to rent."

Member Services: "Unfortunately for rentals members are required to notify us that it is a rental at the time the reservation is made. Since this reservation was made months ago in your name and not as a rental, I am unable to change the lead guest for rental purposes. I will make a note of this, and if you wish to use your vacation points for a rental, you will have to cancel this reservation and make another reservation in the name of your rental guests, then notify us that it is being used as a rental. Thank you and have a magical day!

I whole heartedly agree with blocking this for someone who booked 20 AKV value studios but for me it becomes a problem if I booked for myself and unforeseen circumstances arose and I needed to rent it to avoid losing points.

 

[Sandisw]

Just like they haven't been cancelling reservations up to this point for failing to notify member services that it is a rental at the time the reservation is made. Even though that rule is clearly stated. Just because they haven't done something so far doesn't mean that they can't.

Why don't they ever let us change the lead guest online on our own without contacting member services? It seems to me because of that that we do actually need DVC's approval every time that we change the lead guest. And I have seen no mention otherwise in the rules except for maybe a small section in the favorite week language and I suspect that is because DVC books that for us instead of us making the booking.

Nothing I am saying that they could/might do would stop members from making a reservation for yourself, guests or renters. Or has different rules for different members. Only that it looks like they could decide to stop a lead guest change if it is for a rental and the rules weren't followed in making the reservation or in the way the member is using their membership.

I am saying there is language that treats a reservation differently if it is made on behalf of ourselves/family or friends staying for free, and renters paying for our reservation and that they could choose to use that language if they wanted to cut down on spec renting. Not that they are currently doing anything restricting lead guest changes.

And we disagree because the reason they don’t allow lead guest changes online and with chat or MS is to prevent an owner from making a mistake in a way that can’t be fixed.

It’s not for approval and DVD can’t require it for any reservation. As I said; I have discussed this in depth with DVC, beyond MS.

There are lot of things they don’t allow online because of how it’s set up.

As long as an owner books a rental and is not found they are in violation of the commercial purpose clause, then they must treat all reservations made the same, under the same rules.

Good debate but as I said, I have been in direct contact with DVC over the years to go over these things…and last year, I spent all the time going over every part of the contract dealt with rentals.

People can certainly choose to ignore my info, or have a different take, but since my answers came directly from DVC, up several levels, my stance will always be based on that.

Even now, all they did is say that renting frequently and regularly is not personal use and IMO, if they wanted more than that, they would have included it.

 

[Sandisw]

Example made up scenario that IMO they could use if they wanted to according to the current Home Resort Rules and Regulations.

Sketchy Member: "Hi I would like to change the lead guest and other guests on this reservation"

Member Services "Okay, I may be able to help you with that. First I need to ask, is this reservation going to be used as a rental?"

Sketchy Member: "Yes, I booked 20 AKV Value Studio trips this year that I don't think I can make it to. So I need to rent."

Member Services: "Unfortunately for rentals members are required to notify us that it is a rental at the time the reservation is made. Since this reservation was made months ago in your name and not as a rental, I am unable to change the lead guest for rental purposes. I will make a note of this, and if you wish to use your vacation points for a rental, you will have to cancel this reservation and make another reservation in the name of your rental guests, then notify us that it is being used as a rental. Thank you and have a magical day!

Hi, I made a reservation that I can no longer use and I have to change the lead guest to someone I am now renting it to.

Since I am allowed to rent, and lead guest changes are allowed, please process my reservation.

So, you attest this is for personal use? Yes, this falls under the personal use guidelines of my contract since I am not renting frequently or regularly. Which is exactly what happened last week.

We simply are not going to agree. I don’t see DVC stop lead guest changes even for rentals.

Now, I definitely could see them use it as a metric that once it reaches a certain number, they contact the owner to say that many indicates to use you are renting above limits.

Just like when they capped reservations at 20 if you could not prove all were family and friends or your own.

ETA: I contend that I notified them and added the name at the time it became a rental…prior to that it was not.

 

[Mouseforward]

Hi, I made a reservation that I can no longer use and I have to change the lead guest to someone I am now renting it to.

Since I am allowed to rent, and lead guest changes are allowed, please process my reservation.

So, you attest this is for personal use? Yes, this falls under the personal use guidelines of my contract since I am not renting frequently or regularly. Which is exactly what happened last week.

We simply are not going to agree and my guess is that we will not be seeing DVC stop lead guest changes for rentals…but very well could use it as a metric that once it reaches a certain number, they contact the owner to say that many indicates to use you are renting above limits.

I would not be shocked to find DVC would just take the names and numbers of renting guests and have DVC sales give them a call while they are onsite.

 

[Tatebeck]

I whole heartedly agree with blocking this for someone who booked 20 AKV value studios but for me it becomes a problem if I booked for myself and unforeseen circumstances arose and I needed to rent it to avoid losing points.

I do agree that this would be restrictive, and that I would hope they would pair an enforcement like this with a change in the rules that would do something like extend the banking deadline, allow 1 reservation per year that when cancelled could automatically bank current points even past the deadline/unborrow points from the following use year, or some other rules like that to add flexibility back.

Hi, I made a reservation that I can no longer use and I have to change the lead guest to someone I am now renting it to.

Since I am allowed to rent, and lead guest changes are allowed, please process my reservation.

So, you attest this is for personal use? Yes, this falls under the personal use guidelines of my contract since I am not renting frequently or regularly. Which is exactly what happened last week.

We simply are not going to agree. I don’t see DVC stop lead guest changes even for rentals.

Now, I definitely could see them use it as a metric that once it reaches a certain number, they contact the owner to say that many indicates to use you are renting above limits.

Just like when they capped reservations at 20 if you could not prove all were family and friends or your own.

Do you a place in the rules that you have seen that we are allowed to change the lead guest whenever we want or to whomever we want with no restrictions? I haven't seen any wording like that.

And we disagree because the reason they don’t allow lead guest changes online and with chat or MS is to prevent an owner from making a mistake in a way that can’t be fixed.

It’s not for approval and DVD can’t require it for any reservation. As I said; I have discussed this in depth with DVC, beyond MS.

There are lot of things they don’t allow online because of how it’s set up.

As long as an owner books a rental and is not found they are in violation of the commercial purpose clause, then they must treat all reservations made the same, under the same rules.

Good debate but as I said, I have been in direct contact with DVC over the years to go over these things…and last year, I spent all the time going over every part of the contract dealt with rentals.

People can certainly choose to ignore my info, or have a different take, but since my answers came directly from DVC, up several levels, my stance will always be based on that.

Even now, all they did is say that renting frequently and regularly is not personal use and IMO, if they wanted more than that, they would have included it.

If they gave us the power to modify the lead guest ourselves, how could we possibly make a change that cannot be fixed... When we would always be able to go back and fix it. That doesn't make any sense

You keep saying that an enforcement like that would be treating different reservations differently, but it really wouldn't. They would still be treating every reservation the same if they asked that same question to everyone trying to change the lead guest on a reservation that wasn't just booked.

I guess I am just choosing to have a different take than you like you say. This would be an enforcement or change apart from the commercial vs personal use rule. This is a different rule they would be using. You can pass one rule but still break another of course

 

[Sandisw]

I do agree that this would be restrictive, and that I would hope they would pair an enforcement like this with a change in the rules that would do something like extend the banking deadline, allow 1 reservation per year that when cancelled could automatically bank current points even past the deadline/unborrow points from the following use year, or some other rules like that to add flexibility back.


Do you a place in the rules that you have seen that we are allowed to change the lead guest whenever we want or to whomever we want with no restrictions? I haven't seen any wording like that.




If they gave us the power to modify the lead guest ourselves, how could we possibly make a change that cannot be fixed... When we would always be able to go back and fix it. That doesn't make any sense

You keep saying that an enforcement like that would be treating different reservations differently, but it really wouldn't. They would still be treating every reservation the same if they asked that same question to everyone trying to change the lead guest on a reservation that wasn't just booked.

I guess I am just choosing to have a different take than you like you say. This would be an enforcement or change apart from the commercial vs personal use rule. This is a different rule they would be using. You can pass one rule but still break another of course

The contract requires that the HRR, which DVC gets to write, must include the rules for bookings, cancellations and changes as well as any penalties that come with it.

I am not stating that DVC can’t limit lead guest changes….and if they want to, they have to add it to the HRR…it can’t be case by case.

What I do not believe they can do is to allow lead guest changes in some circumstances and not others based on who the new guest is.

So, if I want to change a reservation to a friend, or renter, and since the contract treats all of those as allowable occupants for our membership, I do not see where the contract gives them the right to make different HRR for different situations.

FL timeshare law says all owners must have the same rules for using their home resort and since renters are allowed, for something like this, I’d say this can’t happen

Now, they can say that everyone is allowed 5 per year and cap it, and that would prevent commercial renters to spec rent a lot.

But, we need to go back to the purpose of the restriction. It is to prevent an owner from using their membership as a commercial enterprise or for a commercial purpose.

DVC is not allowed to limit renting or make renting difficult for owners unless the actions are a pattern of activity that rise to that level, which is why the words frequent or regular were used.

So, if they want to limit or even stop lead guest changes it will need to apply to all reservations and not some…

I think the important thing is looking at things outside of rentals as well because unless one is renting at levels that can be considered commercial, the rest is the same.

And, the reason the notification is required for rentals is to ensure an owner is not making more rentals than what is reasonable under personal use rules.

Now, the good news, IMO, is I don’t think even DVC would do this because not being able to change a lead guest will not be well received by many members because it’s going to be seen as making DVC less flexible.

 

[Sandisw]

I do agree that this would be restrictive, and that I would hope they would pair an enforcement like this with a change in the rules that would do something like extend the banking deadline, allow 1 reservation per year that when cancelled could automatically bank current points even past the deadline/unborrow points from the following use year, or some other rules like that to add flexibility back.


Do you a place in the rules that you have seen that we are allowed to change the lead guest whenever we want or to whomever we want with no restrictions? I haven't seen any wording like that.




If they gave us the power to modify the lead guest ourselves, how could we possibly make a change that cannot be fixed... When we would always be able to go back and fix it. That doesn't make any sense

You keep saying that an enforcement like that would be treating different reservations differently, but it really wouldn't. They would still be treating every reservation the same if they asked that same question to everyone trying to change the lead guest on a reservation that wasn't just booked.

I guess I am just choosing to have a different take than you like you say. This would be an enforcement or change apart from the commercial vs personal use rule. This is a different rule they would be using. You can pass one rule but still break another of course

Because people can make mistakes? Again, it may not make sense but that is the answer when you ask DVC.

And, like I said, since renters are allowed, and considered the same in many instances as owners and guests, there are certain things they can not look at and treat differently.

It would be like saying that DVC can charge a renter for parking but not an owner or their guests. They can’t because dues fund it.

So, while we have requirements to follow for rentals…contracts, alerting MS…that doesn’t mean that renters, as a guest, are different and that DVC can set different rules for them in that regard.

Obviously, if one thinks DVC can pretty much do anything they want in terms of making it hard to rent that has nothing to do with the commercial purpose clause, then, yes, some of the ideas might make sense.

 

[Tatebeck]

The contract requires that the HRR, which DVC gets to write, must include the rules for bookings, cancellations and changes as well as any penalties that come with it.

I am not stating that DVC can’t limit lead guest changes….and if they want to, they have to add it to the HRR…it can’t be case by case.

What I do not believe they can do is to allow lead guest changes in some circumstances and not others based on who the new guest is.

So, if I want to change a reservation to a friend, or renter, and since the contract treats all of those as allowable occupants for our membership, I do not see where the contract gives them the right to make different HRR for different situations.

FL timeshare law says all owners must have the same rules for using their home resort and since renters are allowed, for something like this, I’d say this can’t happen

Now, they can say that everyone is allowed 5 per year and cap it, and that would prevent commercial renters to spec rent a lot.

But, we need to go back to the purpose of the restriction. It is to prevent an owner from using their membership as a commercial enterprise or for a commercial purpose.

DVC is not allowed to limit renting or make renting difficult for owners unless the actions are a pattern of activity that rise to that level, which is why the words frequent or regular were used.

So, if they want to limit or even stop lead guest changes it will need to apply to all reservations and not some…

I think the important thing is looking at things outside of rentals as well because unless one is renting at levels that can be considered commercial, the rest is the same.

And, the reason the notification is required for rentals is to ensure an owner is not making more rentals than what is reasonable under personal use rules.

No worries. Even if whether it requires a rules change or not to do it is questionable, it would still be another option that in the end they could try to use if they wanted to go after spec renting instead of just large point owners doing normal point renting in general.

 

[Sandisw]

No worries. Even if whether it requires a rules change or not to do it is questionable, it would still be another option that in the end they could try to use if they wanted to go after spec renting instead of just large point owners doing normal point renting in general.

Yes, they can definitely make it a rule change and update the HRR but many owners are not going to be happy seeing a limit to lead guest changes.

And, why I hope DVC doesn’t go that route because if they do, it will apply to all changes.

One thing I have learned in my 16 years is DVC doesn’t seem to do complicated…it’s straight forward rules to make enforcement easy.

The fact that nothing has been changed in actual rules and some CMs say there has been no change in policy, I’m not sure we are going to see anything else

 

[Tatebeck]

Because people can make mistakes? Again, it may not make sense but that is the answer when you ask DVC.

And, like I said, since renters are allowed, and considered the same in many instances as owners and guests, there are certain things they can not look at and treat differently.

It would be like saying that DVC can charge a renter for parking but not an owner or their guests. They can’t because dues fund it.

So, while we have requirements to follow for rentals…contracts, alerting MS…that doesn’t mean that renters, as a guest, are different and that DVC can set different rules for them in that regard.

Obviously, if one thinks DVC can pretty much do anything they want in terms of making it hard to rent that has nothing to do with the commercial purpose clause, then, yes, some of the ideas might make sense.

I was responding to your previous post when I saw you reworded this part. Yes there are already parts where they differentiate between non-fee paying guests of members and rental guests of members. So it seems they can make some different rules for those two guest types, or how members book for those different guest types and some already exist.

I am not saying that they can do anything they want, just that they can choose to enforce other rules that are already in the documents (or make new rules) that possibly-commercially renting members may not be following in addition to them possibly renting in regularly and/or frequently suspicious ways.

ETA: Like enforcing the one transfer limit now, even between your own contracts would be a good example

ETA Again
After looking at the rules and how complicated this would all be, it may just be easier for them to implement the special seasons list for a while for AKV value studios, BWV Standard studios, etc to limit how many reservations each member can get and to make the commercial spec renters get out of the game.

 

[keishashadow]

it may just be easier for them to implement the special seasons list for a while for AKV value studios, BWV Standard studios, etc to limit how many reservations each member can get and to make the commercial spec renters get out of the game.

Owning at both, think that is a very interesting idea

 

[808blessing]

Commercial purpose in my language arts - what is the definition- world is not a quantity but rather an advertising/posting to an unknown public audience with a profit that is being made & shared somehow. Personal use (in my humble opinion) is renting to someone you know without the need to advertise nor profit/ although calculation method would vary I suppose. For example I calculate buy in and dues but someone else may use value of inflation, investment etc...

Do I want renting thru a broker allowed? Yes. That adds value to my contracts I want to sell one day and renting is THE way I took the time to find out what DVC resale was and led me to my first purchase(s).

 

[mkatsy]

I was responding to your previous post when I saw you reworded this part. Yes there are already parts where they differentiate between non-fee paying guests of members and rental guests of members. So it seems they can make some different rules for those two guest types, or how members book for those different guest types and some already exist.

I am not saying that they can do anything they want, just that they can choose to enforce other rules that are already in the documents (or make new rules) that possibly-commercially renting members may not be following in addition to them possibly renting in regularly and/or frequently suspicious ways.

ETA: Like enforcing the one transfer limit now, even between your own contracts would be a good example

ETA Again
After looking at the rules and how complicated this would all be, it may just be easier for them to implement the special seasons list for a while for AKV value studios, BWV Standard studios, etc to limit how many reservations each member can get and to make the commercial spec renters get out of the game.

I was just reading about the special seasons it seems like a very fair way to give the “little guy” equal footing in a competitive season. It’s still not going to give everyone what they want, but it’s easier to accept when you don’t feel like you were cheated.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

I was just reading about the special seasons it seems like a very fair way to give the “little guy” equal footing in a competitive season. It’s still not going to give everyone what they want, but it’s easier to accept when you don’t feel like you were cheated.

For those who remember the original “special seasons” lottery usage— how far in advance did you have to submit and could you pick the exact days you wanted? How did the lottery work?

I’m open to trying almost anything that puts small owners on equal footing with sophisticated commercial enterprises, but am wondering if it means you need to plan even further out than 11mo.

 

[Sandisw]

I was responding to your previous post when I saw you reworded this part. Yes there are already parts where they differentiate between non-fee paying guests of members and rental guests of members. So it seems they can make some different rules for those two guest types, or how members book for those different guest types and some already exist.

I am not saying that they can do anything they want, just that they can choose to enforce other rules that are already in the documents (or make new rules) that possibly-commercially renting members may not be following in addition to them possibly renting in regularly and/or frequently suspicious ways.

ETA: Like enforcing the one transfer limit now, even between your own contracts would be a good example

ETA Again
After looking at the rules and how complicated this would all be, it may just be easier for them to implement the special seasons list for a while for AKV value studios, BWV Standard studios, etc to limit how many reservations each member can get and to make the commercial spec renters get out of the game.

Oh, I completely agree that if DVC wants to specifically address the BWV and AKV rooms that are hard to get and a focus for those high demand renters, the special seasons list would be the way to go.

Since it already exists, they don’t need to make new rules. The drawback for those who own there is they lose the 4 month home resort advantage and it becomes one…giveing non resort owners a chance for them sooner than without.

But, as I have mentioned, there are simply things they can not make different for owners booking a reservation simply because it’s a renter without it falling into a material change to the contract and thus, requiring a vote.

I did double check the HRR and nothing has been changed in that regard…last update was Dec 2024 with the new transfer rules.

So, at this time, all things are status quo!

 

[Tatebeck]

For those who remember the original “special seasons” lottery usage— how far in advance did you have to submit and could you pick the exact days you wanted? How did the lottery work?

I’m open to trying almost anything that puts small owners on equal footing with sophisticated commercial enterprises, but am wondering if it means you need to plan even further out than 11mo.

13 Months ahead to get on the list if it's your home resort I believe, 12 if it's not your home resort. But you do report your desired check in day

 

[Sandisw]

For those who remember the original “special seasons” lottery usage— how far in advance did you have to submit and could you pick the exact days you wanted? How did the lottery work?

I’m open to trying almost anything that puts small owners on equal footing with sophisticated commercial enterprises, but am wondering if it means you need to plan even further out than 11mo.

I wasn’t around when it was done but from all the discussion over the years, yes, you got on the list and as I posted, you lost the four month home resort advantage. It was the contract required of one month.

Now, if done, they can start booking up to 15 months in advance. If you accept, you are removed from the list. If you decline, you are allowed to stay on the list for another year.

If you decline a second time, then you come off and have to reapply…putting you down the line.

And, with today’s rules, owners would have from 13 months out to 12 months out for home priority. Then, they can go to anyone one the list.

But, they can also do a lottery system and I believe that was done…which meant anyone on the list could be chosen, and spot on list didn’t matter.

 

[Sandisw]

13 Months ahead to get on the list if it's your home resort I believe, 12 if it's not your home resort. But you do report your desired check in day

They can start calling as earlier as 15 months…so the list is established in advance of that.

But owners will be guaranteed the 13 months to 12 months advantage.

 

[Tatebeck]

They can start calling as earlier as 15 months…so the list is established in advance of that.

But owners will be guaranteed the 13 months to 12 months advantage.

Yeah I saw the 15 month mentioned, but I couldn't tell if that was when they would just be telling the members that there would be a special season list or if it would be when you would start making reservations/requests to be on the list.